Vintage 220V Electrical Motor Wiring Question

[Model A Fan]

I've got this older saw motor I need to rewrire. I had to take all the wiring off when I got it as it was hard wiped into the deceased owner's basement and lug it up a flight of stairs.

Am I reading this correctly, that for 220V, T1 is hot, T4+T8 are hot, and T2+T3+T5 are wired together in a wire but? The inside of the box has a grounding screw.

How/where could I put a switch on it? I'm assuming I'd need a 20A/250V switch?

 

[dogdog]

yes that is correct, usually for 240V in the US electrical grids (not too sure about Texas) you used a DPST switch for 240Vac stuff that would break the Hot-Hot connections.... a single pole switch on any legs would work but that would leave one of the legs live.... might be shocking... your choice..

 

[dogdog]

got this when it was on sale last week for $8.. now $15 of cause. Probably can find something similar in AMazon.

Single-Phase On/Off Switch 120/230V

This dual voltage, single-phase Switch is rated for 120 volt, 2 HP motors up to 35 amps and 230 volt, 3 HP motors up to 20 amps. Fits basic electrical boxes. Start button feature can be locked out of service.

www.grizzly.com

 

[dave*99]

The Leviton MS-302 switches 2 poles.

https://www.amazon.com/Leviton-MS302-DS-Disconnect-Industrial-Non-Grounding/dp/B002MPQ51O/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[mm08822]

I've got this older saw motor I need to rewrire. I had to take all the wiring off when I got it as it was hard wiped into the deceased owner's basement and lug it up a flight of stairs.

Am I reading this correctly, that for 220V, T1 is hot, T4+T8 are hot, and T2+T3+T5 are wired together in a wire but? The inside of the box has a grounding screw.

How/where could I put a switch on it? I'm assuming I'd need a 20A/250V switch?

Yes, your understanding of the connections are correct.

The switch needs to be horsepower rated. The 2 mentioned above are horsepower rated BUT the motor has no overload protection in it.

You need to buy a manual starter motor switch that includes overload protection. The overload protection value should be ~ 115% of 9.6Amps.
The manual switch will tell you the correct overload element (Heater) to purchase.

Connect a cord with plug end (6-15P or 6-20P) into manual starter and from it connect to motor.

 

[johnre]

The Leviton MS-302 switches 2 poles.

That's a good choice, but it does need an oversize J-Box. Thread about it here:

Received and installed - and thanks to @u2slow , @PCustoms, and others who pointed this issue out and identified a suitable switch series for my 5 HP compressor (well, so-called 5 HP, of course). New switch (left) is massive compared to previous one that was only rated for 1 HP (right):


Putting switch in new J-box and wiring it took about half an hour.

But before that could happen, changing out the J-box (the new one is oversized and custom made for this switch, which doesn't fit a standard size) was about six hours - I wanted it mostly recessed so I pulled out the panel, scrolled out the opening, and built a backing brace for it.


And the part of this involving removing / reinstalling my compressor panel, which it seems I didn't much design for serviceability and is very hard to get at from behind (compressor sits above it and air reel in back of it), took 4 hours!


Now to get on with the basic premise of this thread - I'll have to add back in a pilot light to indicate it's on!

 

[micromind]

Your wiring connections are correct. If it turns the wrong way, swap T5 and T8 and it'll turn the other way.

Also, as noted, the switch will need overload protection. It'll need to be rated at 1.5HP@240 volts and be able to be set to 9.6 amps.

 

[Model A Fan]

The Leviton MS-302 switches 2 poles.

https://www.amazon.com/Leviton-MS302-DS-Disconnect-Industrial-Non-Grounding/dp/B002MPQ51O/?tag=atomicindus08-20

That looks like the one in the post below, just different color?

Yes, your understanding of the connections are correct.

The switch needs to be horsepower rated. The 2 mentioned above are horsepower rated BUT the motor has no overload protection in it.

You need to buy a manual starter motor switch that includes overload protection. The overload protection value should be ~ 115% of 9.6Amps.
The manual switch will tell you the correct overload element (Heater) to purchase.

Connect a cord with plug end (6-15P or 6-20P) into manual starter and from it connect to motor.

Could you please direct me to an "overload element"? I've attached a pic of the cord and plug in going to use...hopefully it's correct.

That's a good choice, but it does need an oversize J-Box. Thread about it here:

Your wiring connections are correct. If it turns the wrong way, swap T5 and T8 and it'll turn the other way.

Also, as noted, the switch will need overload protection. It'll need to be rated at 1.5HP@240 volts and be able to be set to 9.6 amps.

I'm a bit lost on these parts. What is "different" about this motor that it needs so much extra in the wiring department? It didn't have anything like this when I bought it.

Pic of cord and plug. 10/3 cord.

 

[Model A Fan]

I recently bought this at a garage sale not really knowing what to do with it. I'm guessing this would work as a whole unit? Do I need anything else to go with it?

 

[Model A Fan]

When I press On or Off, the contacts move and engage/disengage.

 

[Metal-Marc]

edit. Today I learned something new.

 

[dave*99]

That looks like the one in the post below, just different color?

Nope, according to that post, the red one is rated for 1 HP. It is physically smaller etc. I think you have a 1.5HP motor.



But as others have said, your motor is not thermally protected. So it was designed to use a motor starter with thermal protection.
Like the one you found at a garage sale. You will need to install the correct size heaters (amperage) for your motor. The N25's that are in there are not rated for the motors amperage.

Oddly enough, the yellow sticky note in your photo says N30 - and that may be correct for your motor. You need 2. Did the motor and starter come from the same yard sale?

 

[micromind]

That starter will work with your motor. As noted, you'll need 2 N30 heaters. They are easy to replace.

Do not do anything to the contacts. If you file or sand them, they won't mate up with each other and they'll fail early. The black stuff you see is silver oxide. It is conductive and won't cause any problems.

If the layer of silver is filed off, the copper below it will arc and cause copper oxide to build up. Copper oxide is not conductive.......

If you absolutely must clean them, a basic pencil eraser works best. It'll clean the oxide off but won't affect the mating surfaces.

 

[Norcal]

That starter will work with your motor. As noted, you'll need 2 N30 heaters. They are easy to replace.

Do not do anything to the contacts. If you file or sand them, they won't mate up with each other and they'll fail early. The black stuff you see is silver oxide. It is conductive and won't cause any problems.

If the layer of silver is filed off, the copper below it will arc and cause copper oxide to build up. Copper oxide is not conductive.......

If you absolutely must clean them, a basic pencil eraser works best. It'll clean the oxide off but won't affect the mating surfaces.

Thank you for posting the above comment.

If anyone says to file the contacts, that is a sure way to know their advice can be disregarded, manufacturers say not to file the contacts.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Not sure if that box will fit your need, but I'd clean/file the contacts before using it.

View attachment 2091641

Wrong wrong wrong

Never file contacts. Only thing that will do is screw up the contacts and then you will have to replace them

 

[mm08822]

Wrong wrong wrong

Never file contacts. Only thing that will do is screw up the contacts and then you will have to replace them

Can even cause them to weld together!

 

[mm08822]

Flea-bay has plenty of N30 heaters listed.

 

[alfredeneuman]

Why are you referring to 220?
The nameplate says 230 in 2 places for Pete's sake.

 

[Model A Fan]

Why are you referring to 220?
The nameplate says 230 in 2 places for Pete's sake.

So I looked at the saw (it's at my parent's house) and it already has a switch. Made by Rockwell even. If this were going to be constantly used, it might be worthwhile to go to all this extra work. Since it will be used intermittently, is it still necessary? It didn't have one for the 50+ years it's been around. I understand what's "proper" vs "practical".

Here are the pics. It was also $75 which is why I'm not sold on spending $100+ on this thing.

 

[mm08822]

I think you overlooked the motor starter.

I have a Rockwell shaper - mid 90's vintage. It has the same stop/start Pushbutton station. It however is only for control voltage to operate a motor starter. The motor starter has overload protection in it sized for the motor. Your "motor starter" is called a manual starter - i.e. -actuated by hand.

Without overload protection, you risk burning out your motor if it becomes overloaded for any length of time. Cutting heavy lumber, feed rate, pitch, binding, blade sharpness all affect the load placed on the motor.

Think of it like car insurance. Your call.......feeling lucky??

 

[Norcal]

Those Rockwell devices come in 2 flavors, a maintained motor starting switch, the cover is Rockwell & the starter is made by Furnas Electric, and a control station to be used with Rockwell LVC starters, Low Voltage Control which had a definite purpose contactor, multi tapped 24V control transformer, and either a Furnas, or GE, overload relay, earlier Rockwell tools used Cutler-Hammer art deco starters/control stations, which are quite prized among tool restorers.

 

[Model A Fan]

Why did this saw not have one originally? Is there a reason the N25 heaters don't work? At a certain point, it will just be cheaper to buy a cheapie saw and throw this one in the scrap heap. I paid $75 for the whole setup, and so far the power cord was $30, plug was $15, manual starter was $20...the saw MIGHT get an hour use per year in the next couple years while I do small projects at my parent's vacation home for them.

 

[dave*99]

Why did this saw not have one originally? Is there a reason the N25 heaters don't work? At a certain point, it will just be cheaper to buy a cheapie saw and throw this one in the scrap heap. I paid $75 for the whole setup, and so far the power cord was $30, plug was $15, manual starter was $20...the saw MIGHT get an hour use per year in the next couple years while I do small projects at my parent's vacation home for them.

Heaters are cheap. Look at the chart inside the motor starter. Look at the motor label and see the amps drawn by the motor. Match up the ratings. The N25 heaters will likely shut down your motor well below its capability. Rip a long board and saw trips out when it didn’t need to.

 

[kinglake]

Why did this saw not have one originally? Is there a reason the N25 heaters don't work? At a certain point, it will just be cheaper to buy a cheapie saw and throw this one in the scrap heap. I paid $75 for the whole setup, and so far the power cord was $30, plug was $15, manual starter was $20...the saw MIGHT get an hour use per year in the next couple years while I do small projects at my parent's vacation home for them.

Put the cord and plug on it and use it. At worst, you will burn up the motor. Not likely to happen though.

 

[dave*99]

Put the cord and plug on it and use it. At worst, you will burn up the motor. Not likely to happen though.

I can’t argue with that given the intended use of the saw
OTOH, another $14 and it’s complete

Allen Bradley N30 overload heater element 2 Pack | eBay

Allen Bradley N30 overload heater element 2 Pack. Condition is New. Shipped with USPS Ground Advantage.

www.ebay.com

 

[walta]

Why did this saw not have one originally?

Back when this saw was made motors often cost more than the tools so they were sold separately. This allowed the customer to use a motor that already owned or get a smaller or larger motor for their application.

Is there a reason the N25 heaters don't work?

The N25 heater are for a smaller motor if you use them they will shut down the motor when it pulls more than 6.4 Amps for more than 20 seconds or so. My guess is your motor will pull more than 7 amps before you start cutting anything.

The motor starter protects the motor from being overloaded and being damaged. The last owner decided they did not care if the motor got burned up and was damaged beyond repair. If you feel the same you could replace the heater with some coper wire and use it as a heavy duty switch.

To be safe be sure a green wire from the cord gets connected to the case of the motor starer, the frame of the machine and the motor its self.

Walta

 

[dave*99]

Back when this saw was made motors often cost more than the tools so they were sold separately. This allowed the customer to use a motor that already owned or get a smaller or larger motor for their application.

Yup. My grandfather had a craftsman small table saw / jointer planer combo. One motor ran 2 machines.

There were some machines years ago that had a common hinged mounting plate and you moved your motor from machine to machine as needed.