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Torque multiplying socket

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ericm

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Inertia when used with an impact gun. Torque Test Channel has a couple interesting videos on youtube testing different configurations.

EDIT: "multiplying" seems like a misnomer. As I recall the increase measured was a few tens of percent at most, not 1x (100% increase) or more as multiplying would imply. "increasing" would be a more accurate word. Yes, I'm a nerd.
 

dnschmidt

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F=ma. Any impact wrench has a constant F and a constant a. Therefore the only way to get more force is more mass. All of these types of sockets are heavy which is why they work. I won a bet with Eric O. of South Main Auto. I sent him a Lisle 19mm socket of this type and told him if he put it on his normal impact gun that it would remove the dreaded Honda crank bolt. If it did he had to pay me for it. If it couldn't he could keep it at no charge. I won that bet.
 
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308guru

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F=ma. Any impact wrench has a constant F and a constant a.
Constant force ‘eh?

“Therefore the only way to get more force is more mass. All of these types of sockets are heavy which is why they work.”

So a socket that weighs 25lb could work miracles?
 
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tak1313

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Yeah - as others have said, I don't think it "multiplies" so much as it is more "effective at transferring the energy with less loss."
 

MJK

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It's about the rotational kinetic energy transferred for impact sockets. For generating torque, it isn't only how much the force/mass is, but WHERE it is. Same as a longer moment arm on a bigger breaker bar. FWIW, the IR power sockets are a lifesaver for Honda crank bolts for this reason.

BEUzK48HsixXMF_ylFZjBx9leFbYHMNfRun0KOUB_muFlDO-1Q.jpg
 

cleaner

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Torque=R x F
Torque is equal to the vector cross product of force and the radius at which the force is applied. This implies that R and/or F must increase in magnitude to yield a higher torque.

Based on the description of "Hollow drum design" I would guess that that they have concentrated the mass at the OD of the drum which increases the radius at which the force is effectively applied and uses the dynamic inertial effect of the mass driven by the impact driver.
 

dnschmidt

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Constant force ‘eh?



So a socket that weighs 25lb could work miracles?
Yes, any impact will have a constant force (impact) that really cannot be changed. You can speed it up and you can slow it down but basically the size of the hammer inside of the impact determines how much grunt the impact will have for each impact. The heavy sockets, within reason, increase the force of each impact. That's why they work. You can't fight Physics.
 

5ubtle

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Would you elaborate on how resonance would increase transmissibility of torque from the driver to the fastener?
It does not increase transmissibility of torque. It increases effective torque on the fastner. The socket 'bounces back' after each impact event. If the system resonance matches the impacting frequency, the net effect is 'harder hits'.
 

dogdog

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From the shape and configuration, it looks like a small planet gear setup
—- nvm
 
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cleaner

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It does not increase transmissibility of torque. It increases effective torque on the fastner. The socket 'bounces back' after each impact event. If the system resonance matches the impacting frequency, the net effect is 'harder hits'.
If you are familiar with the construction of this socket, would you describe what is inside the drum? I am trying to conceive of how one would exploit a torsional mode shape (at the 1st resonant frequency) of the socket. If this is how it works, then I am quite curious to understand the principles of the design. I am not understanding how the socket would be "tuned" to match the frequency of a given impact driver.

Unless there are some dynamic (moving parts) inside the socket mentioned here then the torsional mode shapes (of the socket) are at a fixed frequency and the first mode would be the one to maximize the effect you are describing. The resonant frequency is a function of the mass of the socket and its stiffness (w=sqrt(k/m). Where k is the stiffness and m is the mass.

I would assume that the impact guns do not all operate at the same frequency (I am not an expert on the design of impact drivers). If all impact drivers do not apply force at a specified common frequency, then how would one design a socket to work with different forcing frequencies to exploit resonance?
 

cleaner

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I just looked quickly at a Patent granted to Ingersoll Rand for a functionally similar tool. The patent shows that they are storing potential energy (rotational) by winding up a mass in torsion and then this potential energy is released into the fastener at such time as to increase the force exerted by the impact driver. This would effectively increase the transmission of the force generating torque on the fastener in one direction and reduce it in the opposite rotational direction.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US9463557?oq=US9463557
 

Spareparts

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I got the suprise of a lifetime trying to get one of the Honda crank bolts, tryed every trick I knew, A friend handed me one of them sockets
Bang it was off with a Ryobi Brushless impact, I did that just to see if it would work. It wasn't as fancy as the IR Socket, just looked like
a 1" slug with eack end broached 1/2" on one end and 19mm on the other, not drilled thru, just a slug and twice the weight as a normal
socket. I believe that with the additional weight and no twist is what makes it so effective.
 

2ndGearRubber

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I have some Lisle ones IIRC, they absolutely work.

It's a simple equation. Imagine swinging a bat. You have a maximum swing speed, eventually something is so heavy you can't swing it. By increasing the mass, for a given speed, more force is imparted when you break the screen out of the old CRT TV someone left in an abandoned parking lot.

Impact spins up, hammers jar the drive end, then rest and the cycle repeats. The bigger socket is acting like a heavier bat. There is more rotating mass slamming to a stop against the fastener in an attempt to break it free.
 

Steve_P

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Sheesh. It's a simple F=MA scenario as said multiple times earlier. I realize that a lot of people here think they're a junior engineer and want to get into the semantics of things and throw around esoteric theories, but let's be realistic: it's the additional MASS.

The IR socket adds mass, but in a patentable way. That's it. Mass.
 

richfinn

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I watched the TTC YouTube video and he actually suggested the hollow lighter drum socket to Astro after the experiment, he didn't really know why it worked better than a solid mass socket or the IR flywheel style socket.

He asked a Physics professor and he ghosted him as he didn't know either.

They proved that it isn't just the weight of the mass or the frequency of the hammer action, there is something else going on!!!
 
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richfinn

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Sheesh. It's a simple F=MA scenario as said multiple times earlier. I realize that a lot of people here think they're a junior engineer and want to get into the semantics of things and throw around esoteric theories, but let's be realistic: it's the additional MASS.

The IR socket adds mass, but in a patentable way. That's it. Mass.

This Astro socket is actually a hollow drum and works better than the solid style sockets (according to the experiment).

IR seem to understand what's going on with their design.

Too much mass actually lowered the performance in the test.
 

MichaelP

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Let me try. No promise to be correct! Just a gut feeling. Last physics class was taken 46 years ago.

Torque is directly proportional to force, radius (lever length) and sin of the angle the force is applied at.
Therefore, if you concentrate the mass of the socket along a larger radius, it should, probably, help.
Flywheel of a larger radius. Something along those lines, IMHO.
 
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2ndGearRubber

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Let me try. No promise to be correct! Just a gut feeling. Last physics class was taken 46 years ago.

Torque is directly proportional to force, radius (lever length) and sin of the angle the force is applied at.
Therefore, if you concentrate the mass of the socket along a larger radius, it should, probably, help.
Flywheel of a larger radius. Something along those lines, IMHO.

Yup, longer lever arm means more force. The cheaper sockets like I have are just built to be thicker than a Latina volleyball player. The walls on that socket have to be 1/2" thick. Cheaper to make than a drum or flywheel style. Still works.

Since the mass is acting over a longer lever arm, you don't need as much to produce a given output force either. Whereas my cheaper designs are a couple pounds each.
 

2ndGearRubber

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This Astro socket is actually a hollow drum and works better than the solid style sockets (according to the experiment).

IR seem to understand what's going on with their design.

Too much mass actually lowered the performance in the test.

Eventually you're not strong enough to swing the bat and break the TV. Imagine a golfer with a 100lb club head. All else equal it should produce more force, but all else isn't equal as the guy can't swing it.

I would ASSume that electric impacts with their lower rpm and more "twisty" torque application would not benefit as much as the higher rpm pneumatic.
 

5ubtle

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Sheesh. It's a simple F=MA scenario as said multiple times earlier. I realize that a lot of people here think they're a junior engineer and want to get into the semantics of things and throw around esoteric theories, but let's be realistic: it's the additional MASS.

The IR socket adds mass, but in a patentable way. That's it. Mass.

If you are familiar with the construction of this socket, would you describe what is inside the drum? I am trying to conceive of how one would exploit a torsional mode shape (at the 1st resonant frequency) of the socket. If this is how it works, then I am quite curious to understand the principles of the design. I am not understanding how the socket would be "tuned" to match the frequency of a given impact driver.

Unless there are some dynamic (moving parts) inside the socket mentioned here then the torsional mode shapes (of the socket) are at a fixed frequency and the first mode would be the one to maximize the effect you are describing. The resonant frequency is a function of the mass of the socket and its stiffness (w=sqrt(k/m). Where k is the stiffness and m is the mass.

I would assume that the impact guns do not all operate at the same frequency (I am not an expert on the design of impact drivers). If all impact drivers do not apply force at a specified common frequency, then how would one design a socket to work with different forcing frequencies to exploit resonance?
@cleaner No, I am not familiar with the socket construction. I've never even held one. I am just "one of Steve_P's junior engineers" , who can't understand how mass could be the source of the effect. I, like you, am curious of how they work. If it is simply caused by extra mass, I believe that there would be such a thing as a "power chisel" which would be a massive chisel that would give a stronger chiseling effect when used with your hand driven hammer.

I do, however, understand how resonance could (in simple terms) produce the effect. Resonance is well known to bring down buildings and bridges from wind inputs, if not managed properly. I have assumed that there are no intricate mechanisms inside most of these sockets. My "guess" at their 'source of power' is resonance, and I offer that here for consideration.

I do not understand the intricacies of designing a socket which could combine with various impact guns operating at various frequencies and with various inertial and stiffness properties to produce a system that would resonate, but I believe that it is possible. If the resonance has a small 'Q factor', the effect would be a small amplitude increase over a wide frequency range (exactly what seems to be occurring with these sockets).

My 'guess' is that the engineers behind most of these "power sockets" don't fully understand how they work either. This seems to be a product that is very well suited to 'test and iterate' style product development.
 

MJK

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Physics is fun

For a given mass, where that mass is changes the polar moment of inertia of the object. Closer to the axis of rotation = lower polar MOI. Further from it = higher polar MOI.

Effectively, the socket in an impact acts a flywheel of sorts. At the same weight and rotational speed, a higher polar MOI stores more energy and effectively acts as a 'bigger flywheel'. So, the more torque it delivers when that stored energy is applied. So, a drum a ring, whatever is going to deliver more torque than a standard socket at the same mass/rpm. Up to a certain point, the impact gun can still get the 'bigger' flywheel up to speed but at the expense of fewer impacts per minute. If you go too extreme to the point where the impact can't spin it up, then it simply isn't going to work.

If you need a visualization of this: start with the idea of a longer vs shorter ratchet. If you apply the same force at the end of the longer one it applies more torque. Now translate that to rotational dynamics: imagine a weight you grip in your hand and try to spin around in circles. The closer to your body you hold it, the easier it is to do. If you fastened it to the end of a broom handle and tried to do the same it would be much slower to start/stop. Because it has a higher polar moment of inertia (and more stored energy at the same rpm).

Ever watch figure skating? They often start spinning at one speed with their arms extended. And then when they pull their arms close to their body the spin speeds up. Excusing the friction of the skates and air, this is conservation of energy at work. Higher polar MOI * slower rpm (arms out) = lower polar MOI * faster rpm (arms in).
 

richfinn

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Eventually you're not strong enough to swing the bat and break the TV. Imagine a golfer with a 100lb club head. All else equal it should produce more force, but all else isn't equal as the guy can't swing it.

I would ASSume that electric impacts with their lower rpm and more "twisty" torque application would not benefit as much as the higher rpm pneumatic.

He did say the increase in torque of the cordless was similar in percentage terms as the air impact.

They also mentioned that too much weight could be decreasing the acceleration of the impact mechanism.

I guess the hollow drum style is kind of the sweet spot for the positioning of the mass.
 

Spareparts

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All I know is that the regular impact socket did not work, the soild one did, that is all I cared about, got that bolt out
so it did the job it was intended to do. All that other stuff is just jibberish to the average mechanic, git it out,get the job done and
move on to the next one, period...
 

Hohn

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Sorry to bump this thread, but I saw that it never really did address the "how does this work" question. So I'd like to sort of put a bow on this thread by addressing that exact question.

It's helpful to think of these sockets as torque sticks in reverse. Torque sticks reduce peak torque by diverting some blow energy into twisting the stick. When the blow is over, the stick untwists and wastes the energy it stored while acting as a torsional spring. The less torsional stiffness the stick has, the more energy it stores and wastes and the lower the torque it transmits.

While a torque stick is an extreme example of having super low stiffness on purpose, there is no drive system that is perfectly stiff. So you are always losing torque due to the lack of stiffness between the impact gun and the bolt.

But what if you could take up the slack in the twisting stiffness? What if you could pre-twist the extension such that when you applied an impact with the impact wrench, the extension couldn't store any more energy? Now instead of wasting energy on the lack of stiffness in your system, you would all but eliminate the transmission losses.

This is how all these heavy sockets work-- whether a flywheel design like the IR, the brute force approach of the Lisle thickwall sockets, or the more engineered approach Astro is taking with their hollow drum design. They all accomplish the same goal.

That is this: they add enough moment of interia to the drive system that it cannot "unwind" before the next hammer blow is applied. Thus, they do not waste the energy that was initially spent twisting up the drive. And therefore each impact blow can build on the prior impact blow without having to re-deflect the entire driveline again. This drastically increases overall efficiency and enables you to remove bolts you might otherwise not be able to.

The Astro and IR designs are IMO best because they increase the MOI primarily by a larger radius-- not just through a slightly larger radius with a huge mass increase (like the Lisle sockets).

You guys who said "resonance" were on the right track-- it's a torsional resonant frequency thing. The lower the BPM of the impact, the harder it is to get the next blow in before the system wants to unwind and waste that energy.

Incidentally this is why most torque sticks are useless on cordless impacts. Cordless impacts usually have much higher BPM and lower peak force, and they easily defeat the torque stick.

Just as torque sticks need to be below a certain maximum BPM to work, heavy sockets need a certain "minimum bpm" to work because their own resonant frequency, if higher than the BPM, will cause them to unwind before the next blow is struck.

One of the best insights a respected engineer ever gave me is "everything is a noodle, it's just that some noodles are stiffer than others." Everything deflects from every force. It's always and only just a question of scale.
 
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mikey03

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Cordless impacts have gotten so powerful would a 18 high torque impact with 12Amp battery really need more juice for a 19 mm?

or is this so smaller impacts in compact places where the high torque won’t fit could get it?
 

NHtoolguy

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Sorry to bump this thread, but I saw that it never really did address the "how does this work" question. So I'd like to sort of put a bow on this thread by addressing that exact question.

It's helpful to think of these sockets as torque sticks in reverse. Torque sticks reduce peak torque by diverting some blow energy into twisting the stick. When the blow is over, the stick untwists and wastes the energy it stored while acting as a torsional spring. The less torsional stiffness the stick has, the more energy it stores and wastes and the lower the torque it transmits.

While a torque stick is an extreme example of having super low stiffness on purpose, there is no drive system that is perfectly stiff. So you are always losing torque due to the lack of stiffness between the impact gun and the bolt.

But what if you could take up the slack in the twisting stiffness? What if you could pre-twist the extension such that when you applied an impact with the impact wrench, the extension couldn't store any more energy? Now instead of wasting energy on the lack of stiffness in your system, you would all but eliminate the transmission losses.

This is how all these heavy sockets work-- whether a flywheel design like the IR, the brute force approach of the Lisle thickwall sockets, or the more engineered approach Astro is taking with their hollow drum design. They all accomplish the same goal.

That is this: they add enough moment of interia to the drive system that it cannot "unwind" before the next hammer blow is applied. Thus, they do not waste the energy that was initially spent twisting up the drive. And therefore each impact blow can build on the prior impact blow without having to re-deflect the entire driveline again. This drastically increases overall efficiency and enables you to remove bolts you might otherwise not be able to.

The Astro and IR designs are IMO best because they increase the MOI primarily by a larger radius-- not just through a slightly larger radius with a huge mass increase (like the Lisle sockets).

You guys who said "resonance" were on the right track-- it's a torsional resonant frequency thing. The lower the BPM of the impact, the harder it is to get the next blow in before the system wants to unwind and waste that energy.

Incidentally this is why more torque sticks are useless on cordless impacts. Cordless impacts usually have much higher BPM and lower peak force, and they easily defeat the torque stick.

Just as torque sticks need to be below a certain maximum BPM to work, heavy sockets need a certain "minimum bpm" to work because their own resonant frequency, if higher than the BPM, will cause them to unwind before the next blow is struck.

One of the best insights a respected engineer ever gave me is "everything is a noodle, it's just that some noodles are stiffer than others." Everything deflects from every force. It's always and only just a question of scale.
Great explanation. I always thought that the stiffness (or inertia) of the system, which limits lost energy from rebound, was the key.
 

Astro_Pneumatic_Tools

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Sorry to bump this thread, but I saw that it never really did address the "how does this work" question. So I'd like to sort of put a bow on this thread by addressing that exact question.

It's helpful to think of these sockets as torque sticks in reverse. Torque sticks reduce peak torque by diverting some blow energy into twisting the stick. When the blow is over, the stick untwists and wastes the energy it stored while acting as a torsional spring. The less torsional stiffness the stick has, the more energy it stores and wastes and the lower the torque it transmits.

While a torque stick is an extreme example of having super low stiffness on purpose, there is no drive system that is perfectly stiff. So you are always losing torque due to the lack of stiffness between the impact gun and the bolt.

But what if you could take up the slack in the twisting stiffness? What if you could pre-twist the extension such that when you applied an impact with the impact wrench, the extension couldn't store any more energy? Now instead of wasting energy on the lack of stiffness in your system, you would all but eliminate the transmission losses.

This is how all these heavy sockets work-- whether a flywheel design like the IR, the brute force approach of the Lisle thickwall sockets, or the more engineered approach Astro is taking with their hollow drum design. They all accomplish the same goal.

That is this: they add enough moment of interia to the drive system that it cannot "unwind" before the next hammer blow is applied. Thus, they do not waste the energy that was initially spent twisting up the drive. And therefore each impact blow can build on the prior impact blow without having to re-deflect the entire driveline again. This drastically increases overall efficiency and enables you to remove bolts you might otherwise not be able to.

The Astro and IR designs are IMO best because they increase the MOI primarily by a larger radius-- not just through a slightly larger radius with a huge mass increase (like the Lisle sockets).

You guys who said "resonance" were on the right track-- it's a torsional resonant frequency thing. The lower the BPM of the impact, the harder it is to get the next blow in before the system wants to unwind and waste that energy.

Incidentally this is why more torque sticks are useless on cordless impacts. Cordless impacts usually have much higher BPM and lower peak force, and they easily defeat the torque stick.

Just as torque sticks need to be below a certain maximum BPM to work, heavy sockets need a certain "minimum bpm" to work because their own resonant frequency, if higher than the BPM, will cause them to unwind before the next blow is struck.

One of the best insights a respected engineer ever gave me is "everything is a noodle, it's just that some noodles are stiffer than others." Everything deflects from every force. It's always and only just a question of scale.
Few people understand it this well, high five
 

2ndGearRubber

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Question related to the moment of inertia - is this not still just a mass equation?

Is the function not twofold? 1st the resistance to deflection/absorption of input energy (prevent torque stick effect) and 2nd the overall mass being rotated and used to hammer against the fastener? Intuitively, the least valuable sense, the function is the additional mass at the perimeter, further from the center line. The mass is adding resistance to "unwinding" as well as effectively adding mass to the driven member via the hammers.


Is this a situation of "technically" there's a root physics answer, but practically speaking "more mass = more good" until the socket is so big it's unusable by the drive tool motor? It doesn't seem as though the mass can be reasonably removed from the core of the equation within "normal" market conditions. Can the US Military make a 500 million dollar socket that works the same as these mass-oriented sockets while being as petite as a chrome socket, just due to extreme resistance to unwinding energy losses? Or is the mass itself simply the resistance, which based on Hohns post it is? Which then sort-of reroutes to "mass=good". If the socket is resisting wind-back, is it not acting just as a flywheel? In which case mass and distance from the center line are the defining factors for the normal steel one would make sockets from?


Per the Astro drum-sockets - using the above theory, the sockets would perform better if made as 100% solid steel IF the drive tool could actually spin and hammer that 4lb lump? Which is probably unreasonable to expect the air motor and hammer assembly tuned for normal sockets to do, thus the compromise of a hollow drum to move the mass as far from the center line (inertia) while the total mass being tuned for what the guns can spin and still stay in their efficiency island?
 

rlitman

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Question related to the moment of inertia - is this not still just a mass equation?...
Yes, just in a different reference frame.

As for how they work, I imagine it is like how a 2-stage muffler can be tuned to improve performance better than an open pipe. I'm sure that different designs will favor different impact guns.
 

KnurledNut

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None of these sockets existed until a mechanic posted a video on Youtube showing the one he made and how well it worked.
 

egdede

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My dumb *** assumed a mechanism such that they rotate the impact socket less than the anvil but with more force... Anvil rotates once and the socket makes 1/2 a revolution but with more force. To be fair to my ******* self, I've never held one of these in my hand, I have only read advertising propaganda/sales literature : )
 

Hohn

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My dumb *** assumed a mechanism such that they rotate the impact socket less than the anvil but with more force... Anvil rotates once and the socket makes 1/2 a revolution but with more force. To be fair to my ******* self, I've never held one of these in my hand, I have only read advertising propaganda/sales literature : )
Yeah, they're devilishly simple, kinda SMH why didn't I think of that sort of simple.
But they absolutely work. I have the Lisle design (which is less "engineered" and more brute force) and it works very well.
 
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