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Re-working existing service entrance

tmp

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Started in on the renovation of “The Barn Shop” this summer. It’s a 36’x30’ building that dates back to probably sometime in the 70s. It’s been relegated to storage for the last few years since I bought the place but after some raccoons took to it last summer I finally made some space in the budget to get this thing up to snuff. The plan this summer is the exterior. Pulling off the battens, replacing some rotten boards, building soffits, new windows, tyvek, and finally vinyl siding.


I’ve already started in on this and making good progress but didn’t account for the electrical service entrance.


There’s 10 gauge direct burial wire (2 hot, 1 neutral, ground) coming from the house running about 75ft to the barn. Where it exits the ground it runs in some black flexible pipe (looks like irrigation pipe) which is boxed in up the side of the barn about 4 ft. Inside it enters a sub panel through a knockout on the back.


The wiring is connected to the main house panel on a tandem 30a breaker. I’ll abandon all the circuits currently in the barn and wire up 4 new circuits:

-Interior Lighting (all LED, probably linkable 4ft shop light style)

-exterior lighting (all LED, 2 floodlights, cupola lighting, and entry door lighting)

-1 run of receptacles (biggest load for now will be a pancake compressor)


Next year I will size up the service to the barn and add more receptacles.



Plan I have come up with is this:

-Dig down to expose the wiring at its full depth and remove the existing pipe

-Slip 1.5” PVC conduit over the cable. I figure a 90° elbow, followed by a 5ft or so stick should do it.

-Vinyl mounting block on the exterior wall that the conduit will pass through.



Open questions:

-Any reason to size up the conduit?

-In the sub panel the neutrals and grounds look to be bonded together. I understand this is not up to code on detached structures. I plan to install an equipment ground bar In the panel to separate them. Should I bother? Should I also drive a ground rod at the building?



I’ve never attempted something like this before. It makes sense in my mind but if this is a stupid plan please tell me so (and please, tell me why!)



I’ll add a few photos to the thread. Thanks for any advice!


IMG_1883.jpeg

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Norcal

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The wiring in the 8 space GE panel is messed up, the grounding conductors all need to be on a separate ground bar, neutrals & grounding connectors cannot be landed together.
 

reader2580

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The wiring in the 8 space GE panel is messed up, the grounding conductors all need to be on a separate ground bar, neutrals & grounding connectors cannot be landed together.
If the building is 1970s era it was probably done before the requirement to separate neutrals and grounds in a subpanel.
 

PCustoms

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@tmp what are you looking to achieve here? If I were planning to upgrade service next year I'd leave the current wiring in place and run new conduit/wire and a panel later on.
 

mm08822

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I can't quite tell, aren't they isolated in the OP?
No, clearly the ground wire terminates on the neutral block.

What is even more of a concern is that the bonding strap is not connected to the neutral block which means there may not be any truely grounded metal surface.

Any grounded surface is purely by accident......ground wires laying up in contact with paint metal surfaces. That won't carry a fault current.
 

PCustoms

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No, clearly the ground wire terminates on the neutral block.

What is even more of a concern is that the bonding strap is not connected to the neutral block which means there may not be any truely grounded metal surface.

Any grounded surface is purely by accident......ground wires laying up in contact with paint metal surfaces. That won't carry a fault current.
I'm not familiar with that style panel, so to me it almost looks like the two blocks are separate from each other.

I'm sure in person or if you've worked on one of these before it's clear.
 

mm08822

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I'm not familiar with that style panel, so to me it almost looks like the two blocks are separate from each other.

I'm sure in person or if you've worked on one of these before it's clear.
Nope. They are stacked, but electrically connected.
 

mike93lx

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Yep.

And that aluminum strap at an angle. Can't tell what it's connected to based on how the pic was taken.
My guess is that it's all part of the same bar, just split and bent up to give the second row.

I'd buy and install a ground bar, despite the plan for a redo at some point
 
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sparky 1971

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Screenshot_20240709-125121.png

Again I've never handled one in person, but it looked like the grounds neutrals were possibly separate.
The little bar in front is bolted or riveted to the big bar. A ground bar would be obvious and bolted directly to the can.
 
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wyliesdiesels

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I consider that 2 rows on 1 block. Its all bolted together. Wouldn't be able to separate them and still use them.

The strap is odd.
 

mm08822

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The strap was typically screwed tight to the enclosure and if bonding needed, you would turn it up and place the rounded end into a wire slot and screw it down. Sometimes the straps were prebent and heavy duty. Those had to be unfastened from the enclosure first to get into the neutral bar slot.
Bonding screws then took over.
 
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tmp

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@tmp what are you looking to achieve here? If I were planning to upgrade service next year I'd leave the current wiring in place and run new conduit/wire and a panel later on.
All I’m trying to achieve right now is reworking the entrance into the building. It’s currently boxed in behind a false batten, and I need to rip all the battens off to get me a flat plane for new siding. So conduit will be a necessity.

I took a look in the box to see what I was working with and noted the neutrals and grounds together. (BTW - hard to see in photos but the two bars are definitely connected)

I think I’ll get an equipment ground bar and put it in. It seems cheap and easy enough to do.
 

mike93lx

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All I’m trying to achieve right now is reworking the entrance into the building. It’s currently boxed in behind a false batten, and I need to rip all the battens off to get me a flat plane for new siding. So conduit will be a necessity.

I took a look in the box to see what I was working with and noted the neutrals and grounds together. (BTW - hard to see in photos but the two bars are definitely connected)

I think I’ll get an equipment ground bar and put it in. It seems cheap and easy enough to do.
Make sure the neutral is isolated from the enclosure when you do that
 

mm08822

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All I’m trying to achieve right now is reworking the entrance into the building. It’s currently boxed in behind a false batten, and I need to rip all the battens off to get me a flat plane for new siding. So conduit will be a necessity.

I took a look in the box to see what I was working with and noted the neutrals and grounds together. (BTW - hard to see in photos but the two bars are definitely connected)

I think I’ll get an equipment ground bar and put it in. It seems cheap and easy enough to do.
Those "2 bars" are not inseperable. It is built as only 1 neutral block.

Turn off ALL cb's in the panel before you lift the existing feeder grd wire from the neutral block. It is a shock hazard otherwise.
 
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tmp

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Turn off ALL cb's in the panel before you lift the existing feeder grd wire from the neutral block. It is a shock hazard otherwise.
Just to be clear on your recommendation here:

I was planning to turn off the tandem 30a at the main panel in the house, and turn off the disconnect switch that exists just before the feeder exits the house before I do any work.

Is your suggestion to turn off all the breakers in the main house panel as well?
 
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sparky 1971

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Just to be clear on your recommendation here:

I was planning to turn off the tandem 30a at the main panel in the house, and turn off the disconnect switch that exists just before the feeder cable runs to the house before I do any work.

Is your suggestion to turn off all the breakers in the main house panel as well?
What he meant was to make sure to turn off the beeakers in the sub panel. Turning off the 30 amp breaker in the main panel is all you need to do.
 

mm08822

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Just to be clear on your recommendation here:

I was planning to turn off the tandem 30a at the main panel in the house, and turn off the disconnect switch that exists just before the feeder exits the house before I do any work.

Is your suggestion to turn off all the breakers in the main house panel as well?
Turning off the cb in the main panel for the feeder will suffice.
 
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mike93lx

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The key is to be 100% certain there is nothing drawing power when you pull the ground as it will have current flowing through it in the current config. Once this is fixed, that will no longer be the case
 
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tmp

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Going to tackle this today. I picked up a GE TGL2P 14-hole ground kit at the hardware store. It includes 10-32 screws to be mounted in pre-drilled holes. I don’t have any pre drilled holes in this box. Do I drill and tap them? Through bolt? Can I get away with a self tapping screw that would also engage the plywood behind the panel or is that a no go?

Last, any recommendations on where to mount the ground bar? I’m thinking top left quadrant of the box.
 

Bert_

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You just have to drill a hole you don't need to tap it. The screws that come with that ground bus will cut their own threads.

A #10 self-driller makes the right size hole, then you can install the correct screws. That's what I usually use because I always have them with me.
 
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tmp

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Took me a while to get back to this - had to wait for a day that I could devote to it that wasn’t too hot to work in the sun all day.

I started to dig up the poly pipe, expecting it to just be long enough to cover where the direct bury cable emerges. Turns out it goes all the way, or at least the few feet I dug back. I transitioned the poly pipe to PVC conduit using a connector that slips over the poly and bites on - kinda like a sharkbite fitting, then threaded that into 1” pvc.
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I realized pretty quickly I was not going to have enough cable after routing it through the conduit, so I decided to come in well below the panel at about 18”, put in a junction box and transition to 10-3 Romex.

The only connectors I could find locally for 10 gauge wire were wire nuts - so I pre-twisted all my connections before I screwed on the wire nuts. This was honestly the biggest pain in the *** of the whole job. This **** just doesn’t want to twist.

IMG_2923.jpeg
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In the panel I installed a ground bar using a combo drill / tap bit that was recommended by mm08822. It worked great.

IMG_2925.jpeg

It gets me where I need to keep going on fixing the exterior.

Please forgive the absolute mess in the photos. I got out the shop vac and was all set to clean up the area, and only remembered I shut the power off when I couldn’t get it to fire up.
 
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