PTAC cooling unit leaking water

[branimal]

PTAC unit started leaking water yesterday. My initial guess is that the condensate line is clogged or the drain pain is cracked. The leak showed up on the 1st floor of a duplex unit. Leaking unit is on the 2nd floor. I pulled the cover off the PTAC and there was some moisture on the wood floor beneath the unit.

It was 95F here. So maybe the evaporator coil froze over?? The air filter looks pretty clean.

Once the unit was turned off, the leak on the 1st floor stopped.

I didn't take any pics with the cover off (I have some older pics somewhere if that helps). I did take this picture if that helps identifying the type of unit it is.

I believe its a McQuay PTAC.

 

[Jackfre]

My initial guess is that the condensate drain is clogged or the drain pan is cracked. Get a Gallo Gun for the condensate drain.

 

[fitter30]

Pull the unit out of it's sleeve two men and take it to the ground. Try to cover the fan motor with tin foil or plastic garbage bag. Clean both coils with water hose outside coil will be dirty on the inside. Dump the water out of it. Let it dry for 45 min to hour. 4 wheel cart helps might want to cover the floor it will leak in and out.

 

[branimal]

Get a Gallo Gun for the condensate drain.

I found a picture of another one of the PTAC units in the apartment from my old pictures. They are all the same units. Any idea where the condensate line is on this? (I know it's a long shot but figured I'd ask).

 

[Bert_]

The condensate pan fills up with all kinds of slime and ****. Some have a temperature valve that holds a 1/2" of water in the pan during summer, I usually pull that valve and throw it away.

 

[Jackfre]

Sorry for the kinda flip response there. McQuay has a very broad line. Get the model number and search for the drawing. If unable to find the drawing, call McQuay or their local rep with the model number. They should be able to provide what you need.

 

[PoorUB]

Man of these wall mount units drain to the outside. Many times the drain just goes to the condenser fan side of the unit and the fan slings the condensate around and into the condenser coil to improve efficiency. You might not find a drain going any where. Also the condensate pans get full of gunk and plug up drains.

If you have the man power, you might just pull the unit, take it outside, take the covers off and clean it well. Especially if it has been in for a few years. That unit looks like it could use a bath!

 

[branimal]

While I do like to do as much DIY as possible, I'm going to leave this to the pros. It's a rental apartment.

Unfortunately the earliest the techs can come out is a week from now. Everyone has AC issue right now.

What we've noticed is the unit leaks on very humid days (75% today in NYC). And not on dryer days (like yesterday).

I'm going to be there when the tech show up - maybe I can learn something. There are 4 of these PTAC units in the apartment.

 

[branimal]

The HVAC techs came by and they're initial assessment without even pulling the cover off the PTAC unit was system was too old and needed to be replaced. After some insistence they removed the cover and a panel and said the system was too old and needed to be replaced. I asked if they could blow out the condensate line and they said there was no access.

Then they were unsure if the system could even be replaced b/w of the proximity of that built out stub wall. That wall has 4x4's in the corner b/c it's acting as a support for the joists above. I was doing some renovation on this apartment back in 2018 and discovered this after pulling back part of the sheetrock.

The HVAC company's customer service rep called back yesterday and said they would send me a quote for a new system. Still waiting for the quote.

From the pictures, does anyone know where the condensate line is located?

 

[dogdog]

If there is a drain hole it would be that hole behind those wires. The right side on the first picture. With the cover off… you can easily pour some water and see where the water pools and slow drains. Just have a wet vac handy and a mop.

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/attachments/img_1466-jpg.2149910/

As far as new unit ? How does that going to help your plugged drain line. Unit it self is not broken. The FIL lived in a building that is build in the 1960s still with the original unit. You sure they are not up selling ?


Should read this thread

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum...ago-will-****-you.534710/page-2#post-10771760

 

[dogdog]

Also look under the unit for drain line? Usually they don’t go directly out the wall but to a common drain line in that section of a building.

 

[danski0224]

There has to be a model number somewhere. You need to find it and then do some web searching.

 

[danski0224]

The HVAC techs came by and they're initial assessment without even pulling the cover off the PTAC unit was system was too old and needed to be replaced. After some insistence they removed the cover and a panel and said the system was too old and needed to be replaced. I asked if they could blow out the condensate line and they said there was no access.

Then they were unsure if the system could even be replaced b/w of the proximity of that built out stub wall. That wall has 4x4's in the corner b/c it's acting as a support for the joists above. I was doing some renovation on this apartment back in 2018 and discovered this after pulling back part of the sheetrock.

Sounds like a line to sell equipment.

Yes, stuff gets old, and it needs to be replaced.

However, you must do your due diligence.

It is highly unlikely that a new piece of equipment will just go into an existing wall sleeve or line up with an existing opening. You could be looking at a very significant project to replace that equipment.

If you go through with it, you better have a VERY DETAILED proposal.

Even commercial RTU's do not interchange forever. Curb adapter hacks are required if the curb isn't being replaced.

 

[Wrench97]

Find another contractor.
Buddies sister has a condo it's 7 years old, has a service contract with a hvac company for the A/C/heat pump/gas furnace A/C quite guy comes out say yea it's empty you need a new unit, second and third companies agreed they all gave her prices from $14-19,000.
I talked to her and had her ask the company she has the contract with were is it leaking from... they told it's empty we can't tell and it has the now outdated 410a refrigerant in it......Yea ok
I had another buddy of mine stop by and look at the system, the schrader valves were leaking where the first clown that did the yearly service cross threaded the caps and bent the schraders he replaced the schraders fixed the threads for the caps and recharged the system.
charged her $400...

 

[branimal]

If there is a drain hole it would be that hole behind those wires. The right side on the first picture. With the cover off… you can easily pour some water and see where the water pools and slow drains. Just have a wet vac handy and a mop.
You sure they are not up selling ?

I'll see if there's a drain hole back there. I'll order a gallo gun to blow it out.

When the tech showed up and told me its too old without even taking the cover off, I knew he was upselling.

Also look under the unit for drain line? Usually they don’t go directly out the wall but to a common drain line in that section of a building.

What would the drain line look like? I haven't thought of a building common drain.

Here's what I know: The floor by the HVAC unit is wet (near the wires as you mentioned). The ceiling on the floor below was slowly dripping water when the HVAC unit was running. The drip is about 3-4' from the wet spot on the upper floor. That could be b/c the floor is sloped. See pic.

There has to be a model number somewhere. You need to find it and then do some web searching.

I've looked. I'll look again. From what I recall it's a Mcquay??

 

[dogdog]

What would the drain line look like? I haven't thought of a building common drain.

Here's what I know: The floor by the HVAC unit is wet (near the wires as you mentioned). The ceiling on the floor below was slowly dripping water when the HVAC unit was running. The drip is about 3-4' from the wet spot on the upper floor. That could be b/c the floor is sloped. See pic.

Usually if it is a properly build building, that have HVAC like that has to have drain lines... maybe it's in one of your buildings architects blue prints. not too sure.. anywhoo... their building super and his team took care of annual maintenance on those units mostly.

The drain on the FIL's place is just a soft copper tubing or some sort of thick walled copper tubing connect to the drain pan I think its about 1/2" or 3/8" and goes down bottom of the pan and out into the floor via that tubing. Their building Units produce lots of condensate water daily... definitely not out the windows , would be have cost some serious issues on that old building at least water stains on walls. Would be odd too for a unit like that doesn't have drains. Might not be the same as your unit.

I think I have send him some thing like these for him to diy since they don't like having people into their apartments unless necessary.

Drain Weasel Drain Millipede Hair Clog Tool for Drain Cleaning FSMPD - The Home Depot

Flexisnake Drain Millipede Hair Clog Tool is designed for instantly opening slow bathroom drains. Comes with handle for convenience.

www.homedepot.com

https://www.harborfreight.com/tube-brush-set-6-piece-61923.html

like I say follow the water on the pan and see where it leads. you can use your phone camera to check the bottom of that unit if you can't bend down enough to see.
Not too sure if that gallo gun would do you more harm than good.
warm water helps soften those buildups I think. definitely no drain cleaners.
keep a small wet vac handy.. or mop or some towel HF have them on sale lol.

 

[branimal]

Usually if it is a properly build building, that have HVAC like that has to have drain lines... maybe it's in one of your buildings architects blue prints. not too sure.. anywhoo... their building super and his team took care of annual maintenance on those units mostly.

The drain on the FIL's place is just a soft copper tubing or some sort of thick walled copper tubing connect to the drain pan I think its about 1/2" or 3/8" and goes down bottom of the pan and out into the floor via that tubing. Their building Units produce lots of condensate water daily... definitely not out the windows , would be have cost some serious issues on that old building at least water stains on walls. Would be odd too for a unit like that doesn't have drains. Might not be the same as your unit.

I think you are correct that there is a drain line going down the building. As you stated there would be water stain on the face of the building and puddles of water on the sidewalk at the front of the building.

I will pour some water down and see where it goes. I'll grab that Flexi-Snake drain tool.

I've called around to other HVAC techs and no one wants to service the unit. They only replace PTACs.

I got a quote for 2500 to replace the entire unit:

New Unit Proposal $2,350.00T Remove your existing unit and dispose of it according to EPA standards. A new 15000 BTU 208 volt Islandaire ED model will be installed. The existing enclosure will remain. 1 X $2,350.00

Availability $0.00T Availability: Please allow approximately 3 weeks for delivery/installation 1 X $0.00

Islandaire Warranty $0.00T Warranty: 2 years parts and labor with an additional 4 years on the compressor (part only) *Please note the warranty covers repair of the units and replacement parts NOT replacement units. Units are non-refundable unless deemed defective by the manufacturer. 1 X $0.00

DUP Notice & Terms $0.00 Notice & Terms: -Not responsible for the removal or reinstallation of any sheetrock, custom cabinetry, access panels & shall not be responsible for any patch up work needed after installations.

 

[mike93lx]

I think you are correct that there is a drain line going down the building. As you stated there would be water stain on the face of the building and puddles of water on the sidewalk at the front of the building.

I will pour some water down and see where it goes. I'll grab that Flexi-Snake drain tool.

I've called around to other HVAC techs and no one wants to service the unit. They only replace PTACs.

I got a quote for 2500 to replace the entire unit:

New Unit Proposal $2,350.00T Remove your existing unit and dispose of it according to EPA standards. A new 15000 BTU 208 volt Islandaire ED model will be installed. The existing enclosure will remain. 1 X $2,350.00

Availability $0.00T Availability: Please allow approximately 3 weeks for delivery/installation 1 X $0.00

Islandaire Warranty $0.00T Warranty: 2 years parts and labor with an additional 4 years on the compressor (part only) *Please note the warranty covers repair of the units and replacement parts NOT replacement units. Units are non-refundable unless deemed defective by the manufacturer. 1 X $0.00

DUP Notice & Terms $0.00 Notice & Terms: -Not responsible for the removal or reinstallation of any sheetrock, custom cabinetry, access panels & shall not be responsible for any patch up work needed after installations.

Looks like around 1100 for the unit online? Plus markup, install and disposal. 2500 doesn't seem terrible to me, if it actually needs to be replaced, but it doesn't sound like it does

 

[dogdog]

New Unit Proposal $2,350.00T Remove your existing unit and dispose of it according to EPA standards. A new 15000 BTU 208 volt Islandaire ED model will be installed. The existing enclosure will remain.

Yea not sure how this goes. I think it’s the internal only, the enclosure remains. Weird that everybody is a sales man these days.

 

[chinboys]

Snake the condensate tubing from the outside using some 14 gauge wire.
It helps if you have a shop vac sucking at the outlet port of the condensate drain line and if you can use compressed air at the unit's inlet for the condensate drain.
You could go into annual business with the rest of the condo unit owners.

 

[branimal]

Snake the condensate tubing from the outside using some 14 gauge wire.
It helps if you have a shop vac sucking at the outlet port of the condensate drain line and if you can use compressed air at the unit's inlet for the condensate drain.
You could go into annual business with the rest of the condo unit owners.

Unit is on the 5th floor so no external access. I have 4 of these units in the condo. I'd be happy to pay someone, watch and learn so I could service the rest of them.

 

[danski0224]

Does the proposal cover making sure that the drain works?

 

[branimal]

Does the proposal cover making sure that the drain works?

Good question. If the drain is blocked and indeed a common drain in the walls leading to the basement (or elsewhere) the pipe becomes the buildings responsibility. I'll ask if they will repair drain blockages.

Interestingly I emailed the condo board this morning - inquiring about a common drain and I haven't heard back. They are typically Johnny on the spot with questions. Not so much when repairs tap into the common funds.

 

[branimal]

Usually if it is a properly build building, that have HVAC like that has to have drain lines... maybe it's in one of your buildings architects blue prints. not too sure.. anywhoo... their building super and his team took care of annual maintenance on those units mostly.

The drain on the FIL's place is just a soft copper tubing or some sort of thick walled copper tubing connect to the drain pan I think its about 1/2" or 3/8" and goes down bottom of the pan and out into the floor via that tubing. Their building Units produce lots of condensate water daily... definitely not out the windows , would be have cost some serious issues on that old building at least water stains on walls. Would be odd too for a unit like that doesn't have drains. Might not be the same as your unit.

The building manager (puppet for the condo board) said the following:
The hvac units in our building are specific to each apt, so they don’t have a condensate line as a central air system would.
Your repair company should recommend a way to deal with the condensation. (Perhaps the unit is not sitting in the correct position and needs to be titled or raised up.)

Maybe its true, maybe its not. IDK. What I do know is the apartments on the front side of the building don't have water staining or puddles. And under each PTAC unit is a bit of a ledge, so not sure where the water would go. Maybe the moisture is just used to keep the condenser coils cool?? Maybe my pan is so full of gunk that there's no where for the normal amount of condensation to accumulate so it so it just overflows.

I'm going there tonight to take a look. I found a PTAC HVAC guy who's willing to attempt to clean out the condensate line. $250.

Failing that I'll setup a temporary portable A/C for my tenants to hold them over while waiting for a new PTAC unit.

 

[dogdog]

Odd response. I wonder where the condensate drains to in your units then.

 

[branimal]

Odd response. I wonder where the condensate drains to in your units then.

Maybe its one of these ACs that dont drip water out. I saw a video of a PTAC unit with a heating element on the drain pan. The heating element boils off the excess water. Whatever water is in the pan is splashed onto the condenser coil.

If the heating element is encased in crud, it cant heat the water adequately. Hence the overflow.

IDK. I'm just guessing all of this.

Hopefully this HVAC tech shows up tonight and I can learn more.

 

[branimal]

HVAC tech came by last night.

1. We cannot pull the unit out of the sleeve b/c of a wall blocking it. See pic below. We need about 20". The wall might be a structural wall based on a GJ post from 2018. https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/threads/4-x-4-studs-found-in-strange-wall.386608/

2. We poured 32 oz of water into the pan from above the fins on the top of the unit. No leakage anywhere. He said that's more water than the system would generate. Not sure what he meant by that.

3. We couldn't visually spot a drain line anywhere.

4. We got the evaporator coil exposed and it was quite dirty. We ran the A/C and moisture started to form on the fins. The tech swiped his hands on the fins and they were wet. He sprayed the evap coil with diluted cleaner from a pump sprayer.

5. I left the A/C running and told the tenants to contact me if they see a leak downstairs. No call in 24 hours. Fingers crossed.

6. After watching some Coil cleaning videos today I think the hot intake air is hitting the fins of the evaporator coils. Since the fins are dirty air cannot freely pass and instead of condensing inside where the drain pan is, it condenses on the fins. Some of that condensations drips onto the bottom shell of the PTAC unit. The bottom shell of the PTAC unit has some holes in it by design. Once there is enough water on the shell it flows to these holes and drips onto the hardwood floor. I can see the stain marks on the flooring.

If the fins were clean, adequate airflow would reach the evaporator coil and the condensate would drip down into the pan. This is all my theory, I don't really know for sure.

The illustrated pictures might explain this better than I have.

7. We cant really clean the drain pan or condenser coils b/c we cannot pull the unit out. Ideally he would remove the entire unit and power wash it offsite... (clean the pan, and condenser, drain hole, etc). But we cant remove it b/c theres a wall obstructing access.

8. I have to say he was an honest guy, said the unit was working fine even though its 40 years old.

Questions
- Is there anything else we can clean give our limited access?
- Can you guys recommend a good evap coil cleaner. I have 3 other PTAC units in this apartment I'd like to clean. And I'd like to clean the problem PTAC unit again. Ideally the 1-gallon size cleaner so I can use my pump sprayer. I'll have another pump sprayer with clean water to rinse it off.

 

[danski0224]

We cannot pull the unit out of the sleeve b/c of a wall blocking it. See pic below. We need about 20"

I'd kick this back to the building management.

Unit needs to come out for maintenance, someone put a wall there during the building conversion, what are you going to do about it?

If you plan to continue owning the space, it will eventually become a problem.

 

[mike93lx]

Is there enough clearance to get the new unit in or is it also too tight for that? If the new one is smaller, the old one might have to be cut up to be removed.

 

[branimal]

So its been almost 5 days and no complaint of a leak. Thank God. I guess the evaporator fins were the cause. I bought some evaporator coil cleaner and will be cleaning off the fins/evaporators on the rest of the PTACs in the apartment.

Is there enough clearance to get the new unit in or is it also too tight for that? If the new one is smaller, the old one might have to be cut up to be removed.

Too tight for the new unit to go in. They need 20" of clearance.

I'd kick this back to the building management.

Unit needs to come out for maintenance, someone put a wall there during the building conversion, what are you going to do about it?

If you plan to continue owning the space, it will eventually become a problem.

Clearly the wall was built after the unit was installed.

This one is going to be tricky. The condo board is a cagey bunch. They don't want to use common funds to make unit repairs (unless those repairs are in the condo boards units lol).

No to go on a rant, but one time a cast iron drain pipe connected to a toilet cracked (40 year old pipe and allegedly cheap Chinese pipe not / Charlotte pipe) and the board laid the blame on the unit owner. They said the unit owner put wipes down the toilet. I don't think wipes are going to cause a crack in a pipe. I'm not a plumber though. According to the bylaws, the condo is responsible for plumbing inside the walls. But the unit owners insurance paid for the damages.

Another example, the unit owners on the top floor always seem to have leaks into their apartments. The board claims this is b/c they built outdoor decks on the roof space. Not sure who is in the right. But the board refuses to pay for any leaks into the apartment. Ok I get it, its a point of contention. But - one of the unit owners was selling his apartment and the condo board told the potential buyer that the apartment was frequently getting leaks. So part of my fear is when I go to sell my apartment, the condo board will tell the buyer that the A/C unit cannot be replaced b/c there's a structural wall blocking it.

There are more examples but as I said, I don't want to go on a rant.

I'm not really sure how to proceed. I'm going to give it some thought after I review all the bylaws.

 

[danski0224]

(40 year old pipe and allegedly cheap Chinese pipe not / Charlotte pipe)

Really?

NYC would allow pipe not made in USA? Or the union plumber installing it?

Had to have been done by side jobbers, especially 40 years ago.

 

[branimal]

NYC would allow pipe not made in USA? Or the union plumber installing it?

Had to have been done by side jobbers, especially 40 years ago.

I think it was a legit job. It was a conversion from an old factory building to a condo. I'm sure inspections were required.

I remember posting a picture of that pipe on a plumbing forum and those guys said it was a Chinese pipe with known issues.

So part of my fear is when I go to sell my apartment, the condo board will tell the buyer that the A/C unit cannot be replaced b/c there's a structural wall blocking it.

^^^ Part of me thinks it's better to keep my mouth shut. Still debating this. Condo board wants an owner that won't try to litigate the issue.

 

[Wrench97]

So its been almost 5 days and no complaint of a leak. Thank God. I guess the evaporator fins were the cause. I bought some evaporator coil cleaner and will be cleaning off the fins/evaporators on the rest of the PTACs in the apartment.



Too tight for the new unit to go in. They need 20" of clearance.




Clearly the wall was built after the unit was installed.

This one is going to be tricky. The condo board is a cagey bunch. They don't want to use common funds to make unit repairs (unless those repairs are in the condo boards units lol).

No to go on a rant, but one time a cast iron drain pipe connected to a toilet cracked (40 year old pipe and allegedly cheap Chinese pipe not / Charlotte pipe) and the board laid the blame on the unit owner. They said the unit owner put wipes down the toilet. I don't think wipes are going to cause a crack in a pipe. I'm not a plumber though. According to the bylaws, the condo is responsible for plumbing inside the walls. But the unit owners insurance paid for the damages.

Another example, the unit owners on the top floor always seem to have leaks into their apartments. The board claims this is b/c they built outdoor decks on the roof space. Not sure who is in the right. But the board refuses to pay for any leaks into the apartment. Ok I get it, its a point of contention. But - one of the unit owners was selling his apartment and the condo board told the potential buyer that the apartment was frequently getting leaks. So part of my fear is when I go to sell my apartment, the condo board will tell the buyer that the A/C unit cannot be replaced b/c there's a structural wall blocking it.

There are more examples but as I said, I don't want to go on a rant.

I'm not really sure how to proceed. I'm going to give it some thought after I review all the bylaws.

How high off the ground is the unit. Can you pull from the outside wall?

 

[branimal]

How high off the ground is the unit. Can you pull from the outside wall?

5th floor. Theres really no where to setup a scafolding from below due to the proximity of the building behind. But the building is 6 floors, so maybe a scaffolding can be lowered from the flat roof.

 

[Wrench97]

5th floor. Theres really no where to setup a scafolding from below due to the proximity of the building behind. But the building is 6 floors, so maybe a scaffolding can be lowered from the flat roof.

It appears the windows open so you still may be able to use a crane from the street or is this a courtyard type area? And work through the window opening, I'm guessing those units are about 250 lbs?

 

[branimal]

It appears the windows open so you still may be able to use a crane from the street or is this a courtyard type area? And work through the window opening, I'm guessing those units are about 250 lbs

My unit does not face the street, it faces the back. There's no room to get any equipment back there.

So it's been a week and the AC has not leaked. Fingers crossed. So it was because the dirty evaporators fins were condensing on the fins and dripping on the shell of the PTAC unit and not into the pan.

Ran into this meme and thought it was appropriate...... (hope I don't jinx myself).