Update my secondary breaker panel?

[andyvh1959]

My home in Green Bay was built in 1973, a tri-level with a basement and 2-car attached garage below the bedrooms. The house has two breaker panels, a 200amp Cutler Hammer Main panel in the attached garage on the east end of the house, and a secondary 100amp Cutler Hammer CH7CS panel in the basement for the west end of the house. When I wired the sub-panel for my detached shop/garage, I tapped 100 amp off the 200amp primary panel in the attached garage with a duplex 100 amp breaker.

The original wiring in the 200amp panel was a freakin mess: loose connections, one neutral not even connected, if 4' of wire had been fed into the panel from the initial wiring, it was all stuffed into the panel, grounds/neutrals on one bus-bar. Back in 2020 I re-wired the entire main breaker panel, cleaned it up, installed separate ground and neutral bus-bars and rerouted the grounds and neutrals to suit. When the electrical inspector reviewed my shop wiring/sub-panel I also showed him the main panel after I had updated it, and it all passed inspection.

Ok, lots of typing to get to my question: assuming the original secondary panel in the basement is wired like the primary panel had been wired, should I go through the secondary panel and update it with separate ground and neutral bus-bars? I have not yet checked the secondary panel, but it is original to the house and over the years I have found wiring issues either done originally, or by previous owners. When I bought the house in 2002 I did so without a home inspection (as I don't trust them anyway), but we will be selling the house within five years. So I'm asking opinions about going through the secondary panel now and updating it, correcting it before I even put the house on the market.

 

[Gutman]

Yes. If it was done like your first. If anything, for your own comfort.

I have 2 x 200 amp panels, side-by side in my garage. Not sure why exactly, as house is ~ 30 years old. Originally built by a builder, with a subsequent owner in between. Had some interesting conversations with our county building inspector, as any time we talked, the discussion always migrated to that builder and his ideas/attitude on a lot of topics, to include building. I've found many things that about the house that seem unexplainable. Mystery switches and outlets and such. I'm not smart enough to look at some of the wonders and date the work, but based on things I've heard from the BI and other longer term neighbors, I'm attributing (rightly or wrongly) to the builder.

In any case, I feel your pain. I redid aspects of my panels when I updated wiring to my dock. I found and fixed several other issues that were present in the panels. I also moved some of the loads for an emergency generator panel that is wired into both boxes. I have yet to dive into the separate service panel for my detached garage, as I've had other projects to do and it works for me at the moment, but that is coming soon.

 

[Cruzan80]

Back in 2020 I re-wired the entire main breaker panel, cleaned it up, installed separate ground and neutral bus-bars and rerouted the grounds and neutrals to suit.

Not sure why this was needed. In the main panel, the neutrals and the grounds are bonded together anyway. You don't get a neutral coming from the power company. If it was for your sanity, great, but not a rule I am aware of.

should I go through the secondary panel and update it with separate ground and neutral bus-bars

Sub-panels are required to have neutrals and grounds separated, so this would need to be done if not already. It should also be a 4-wire feeding this. Not sure about grounding rods (sounds like it is in one structure).

 

[mike93lx]

Not sure why this was needed. In the main panel, the neutrals and the grounds are bonded together anyway. You don't get a neutral coming from the power company. If it was for your sanity, great, but not a rule I am aware of.

Sub-panels are required to have neutrals and grounds separated, so this would need to be done if not already. It should also be a 4-wire feeding this. Not sure about grounding rods (sounds like it is in one structure).

4 wire is currently a requirement but was not when the OP's house was built.

Updating to 4 wire, if it isn't already, is not necessary, but would not be a bad idea at all.

Edit: this is incorrect. See post 18

 

[Cruzan80]

4 wire is currently a requirement but was not when the OP's house was built.

Updating to 4 wire, if it isn't already, is not necessary, but would not be a bad idea at all.

At what point does the OP going into the box, and "cleaning stuff up", mean he would have to update to current code levels? No sarcasm, honestly not sure when it "crosses the line" so to speak.

Not disagreeing with the requirements you posted.
I was also mentioning it because he said he wants to sell it in the next 5 years, so probably will be flagged on an inspection (not saying it isn't allowed, just not to current code). And the below.

I'm asking opinions about going through the secondary panel now and updating it, correcting it before I even put the house on the market.

 

[mike93lx]

At what point does the OP going into the box, and "cleaning stuff up", mean he would have to update to current code levels? No sarcasm, honestly not sure when it "crosses the line" so to speak.

Not disagreeing with the requirements you posted.
I was also mentioning it because he said he wants to sell it in the next 5 years, so probably will be flagged on an inspection (not saying it isn't allowed, just not to current code). And the below.

Moving some wires around won't trigger updating.

I'd say let it be flagged on an inspection. Most inspectors probably wouldn't notice and unless the market changes significantly, I bet it won't matter anyway

 

[dcg9381]

So I'm asking opinions about going through the secondary panel now and updating it, correcting it before I even put the house on the market.

It sounds like "future resale" is the motivation for doing this update.

I would NOT do it for that reason alone. Hell, most of the "home inspectors" here don't even bother cracking the cover of the panel and I'd bet even fewer would know what they are looking at if they did.

They will walk around with a pocket tester and they'll flag things like lack of GFCI in bathrooms/wet areas.

I'd rather NOT do that work and be prepared to negotiate somewhere else on something else. Only on GJ do we care what the inside of the basement breaker box looks like and make a major purchase decision based on that.

Or I'd do the common things that home inspectors check for.

If you do this update, you'll really need to get to "modern code" anyway - AFI, GFI, AFI/GFI (my least favorite). I may or may not have removed some modern breakers because they are so fault-ridden.

It's different if you hate knowing that the basement panel is a **** show. I get that 100%.

 

[theoldwizard1]

If you update the second panel with separate neutral and ground bars, they cN not be bonded. You will need. 4 wire feed from the main panel. The one bond for the entire system should be in the disconnect closest to the POCO feed

Nit : Don't all it a "duplex" breaker. It is just a 240V breaker.

 

[PCustoms]

If you update the second panel with separate neutral and ground bars, they cN not be bonded. You will need. 4 wire feed from the main panel. The one bond for the entire system should be in the disconnect closest to the POCO feed

Nit : Don't all it a "duplex" breaker. It is just a 240V breaker.

That's a little off base...

 

[wyliesdiesels]

My home in Green Bay was built in 1973, a tri-level with a basement and 2-car attached garage below the bedrooms. The house has two breaker panels, a 200amp Cutler Hammer Main panel in the attached garage on the east end of the house, and a secondary 100amp Cutler Hammer CH7CS panel in the basement for the west end of the house. When I wired the sub-panel for my detached shop/garage, I tapped 100 amp off the 200amp primary panel in the attached garage with a duplex 100 amp breaker.

Does this 200a CH panel have a breaker ahead of it? IF not, then it is the main. Does the 100a CH panel that you are calling secondary, get fed from the main? if so, then it is considered a subpanel and should already have an isolated neutral bar9s) w/ separate ground bar(s).

The original wiring in the 200amp panel was a freakin mess: loose connections, one neutral not even connected, if 4' of wire had been fed into the panel from the initial wiring, it was all stuffed into the panel, grounds/neutrals on one bus-bar. Back in 2020 I re-wired the entire main breaker panel, cleaned it up, installed separate ground and neutral bus-bars and rerouted the grounds and neutrals to suit. When the electrical inspector reviewed my shop wiring/sub-panel I also showed him the main panel after I had updated it, and it all passed inspection.

Since this is the main service panel, ground wires on the neutral bar are fine but can be terminated to a separate bar for tidiness. however, that neutral bar needs to be bonded. Is it?

Ok, lots of typing to get to my question: assuming the original secondary panel in the basement is wired like the primary panel had been wired, should I go through the secondary panel and update it with separate ground and neutral bus-bars? I have not yet checked the secondary panel, but it is original to the house and over the years I have found wiring issues either done originally, or by previous owners. When I bought the house in 2002 I did so without a home inspection (as I don't trust them anyway), but we will be selling the house within five years. So I'm asking opinions about going through the secondary panel now and updating it, correcting it before I even put the house on the market.

Since it is a subpanel, it should already have separate neutral (isolated) and ground bars along with a 4-wire feed. If instead it doesnt and only has a 3-wire feed, then it needs to be updated.

some pics of your panels would be helpful

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Yes. If it was done like your first. If anything, for your own comfort.

I have 2 x 200 amp panels, side-by side in my garage. Not sure why exactly, as house is ~ 30 years old. Originally built by a builder, with a subsequent owner in between. Had some interesting conversations with our county building inspector, as any time we talked, the discussion always migrated to that builder and his ideas/attitude on a lot of topics, to include building. I've found many things that about the house that seem unexplainable. Mystery switches and outlets and such. I'm not smart enough to look at some of the wonders and date the work, but based on things I've heard from the BI and other longer term neighbors, I'm attributing (rightly or wrongly) to the builder.

In any case, I feel your pain. I redid aspects of my panels when I updated wiring to my dock. I found and fixed several other issues that were present in the panels. I also moved some of the loads for an emergency generator panel that is wired into both boxes. I have yet to dive into the separate service panel for my detached garage, as I've had other projects to do and it works for me at the moment, but that is coming soon.

not quite. a subpanel should not be wired like a main service panel.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

If you update the second panel with separate neutral and ground bars, they cN not be bonded. You will need. 4 wire feed from the main panel. The one bond for the entire system should be in the disconnect closest to the POCO feed

Nit : Don't all it a "duplex" breaker. It is just a 240V breaker.

the subpanel should already have an isolated neutral bar. if it doesnt then yes it needs to be updated with separate bars and 4-wire feed.

 

[PCustoms]

the subpanel should already have an isolated neutral bar. if it doesnt then yes it needs to be updated with separate bars and 4-wire feed.

Why?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't 3 wire feed code compliant in 1973?

Are you advocating all old house be moved to 4 wire feed? What about all the other code updates since?

If the OP had a messy main panel and (logically) suspects the sub is a trainwreck too I don't see why cleaning up and possibly re-terminating should trigger code updates

 

[sparky 1971]

Why?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't 3 wire feed code compliant in 1973?

Are you advocating all old house be moved to 4 wire feed? What about all the other code updates since?

If the OP had a messy main panel and (logically) suspects the sub is a trainwreck too I don't see why cleaning up and possibly re-terminating should trigger code updates

Three wire feeds were only for separate structures and I believe everything here is under one roof.

 

[PCustoms]

Three wire feeds were only for separate structures and I believe everything here is under one roof.

So then the entire conversation about 3 vs 4 wire was conjecture (that I fell into as well), as the OP mentioned nothing about 3 or 4 wires for the sub in the attached garage

 

[mike93lx]

So then the entire conversation about 3 vs 4 wire was conjecture (that I fell into as well), as the OP mentioned nothing about 3 or 4 wires for the sub in the attached garage

Speculation and assumptions keep the rockin world go round

 

[sparky 1971]

So then the entire conversation about 3 vs 4 wire was conjecture (that I fell into as well), as the OP mentioned nothing about 3 or 4 wires for the sub in the attached garage

Yep. I don't see where the number of wires in the feeder are posted, but there should be four no matter how old it is. And, I think the main is in the garage and the sub is in the basement.

 

[sparky 1971]

4 wire is currently a requirement but was not when the OP's house was built.

Updating to 4 wire, if it isn't already, is not necessary, but would not be a bad idea at all.

Four wire feeds for sub panels in the same structure has always been a requirement.

EDITED FOR CLARITY: Separate neutrals and grounds have always been a requirement for a sub panel, the ground could be accomplished with metal conduit between the main and sub panels thus only having three actual wires: two hots and a neutral with the conduit serving as the grounding conductor.

 

[mike93lx]

Four wire feeds for sub panels in the same structure has always been a requirement. A continuous metal conduit would count as the ground wire.

Thanks. I edited my post

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Why?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't 3 wire feed code compliant in 1973?

Not for a subpanel in an ATTACHED structure. 4-wire feed w/ iso neutral has always been required due to the potential for shock.

this is explained in the electrical FAQs.

Are you advocating all old house be moved to 4 wire feed? What about all the other code updates since?

yes I am advocating that. a 3-wire subpanel in the same structure as the main should most definitely be updated because of the potential for shock and it was never code compliant.

I have actually seen apartments that had wiring like this.

Think about a scenario like this: 3-wire dryer (frame bonded to neutral) connected to 3-wire sub. This is a potential for shock just waiting for a pathway.... Person brushes their arm against dryer frame while touching metal faucet (plumbing bonded to neutral in main service panel) to turn it on. They have now created an alternate pathway for neutral return current thru their body.

If the OP had a messy main panel and (logically) suspects the sub is a trainwreck too I don't see why cleaning up and possibly re-terminating should trigger code updates

has nothing to do with code updates. it was never compliant to begin with

 

[wyliesdiesels]

So then the entire conversation about 3 vs 4 wire was conjecture (that I fell into as well), as the OP mentioned nothing about 3 or 4 wires for the sub in the attached garage

i brought it up because i have indeed come across 3-wire fed subs in same structure as mains. gotta cover all the bases.

 

[andyvh1959]

Wow, lots of great replies, thats why I like this forum so much, and the snarky replies are always fun. For clarity, the Main panel in the attached garage does have a 200 amp switch listed "MAIN". When I redid the messy wiring in the main panel I switched off the MAIN so everything below the large wires feeding the panel was dead. I worked very carefully around the large feed wires.

The main panel in the garage feeds the sub-panel in the basement. And now that I recall, I looked at the ground cable attachment at the water main/meter, and the ground cable does not go to the sub-panel, it goes to the main panel. Though I suspect, and being built in 1973, it is the only ground connection to the main panel. The water main is at least 36' from the main panel. More info, the main panel is on an outside wall of the attached garage, which is brick on the outside. I looked inside the main panel and there sre three lsrge cables coming through the garage wall from the meter: one wrapped red, one wrapped black and one bare. I think there is a ground cable in the lower left corner of the main panel going through the garage floor.

I'll have to open up the basement sub-panel to see if my assumptions are correct. Hopefully its better than I found in the main panel. The original owner of the house had told me his wife's uncle was a master electrician at the time the house was built in 73 and that he did a bunch of the electrical work. From what I have found in this house over the decades,.....I'd not hire him to work on my house.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Wow, lots of great replies, thats why I like this forum so much, and the snarky replies are always fun. For clarity, the Main panel in the attached garage does have a 200 amp switch listed "MAIN". When I redid the messy wiring in the main panel I switched off the MAIN so everything below the large wires feeding the panel was dead. I worked very carefully around the large feed wires.

This means nothing in terms of whether this is actually the main service panel. IF there is a disconnect or another panel ahead of this between it and the meter, then this panel is just another subpanel.

The main panel in the garage feeds the sub-panel in the basement. And now that I recall, I looked at the ground cable attachment at the water main/meter, and the ground cable does not go to the sub-panel, it goes to the main panel. Though I suspect, and being built in 1973, it is the only ground connection to the main panel. The water main is at least 36' from the main panel.

This wire is NOT a ground cable. it is a bond wire. The bond wire going to the water line has nothing to do with whether the subpanel has a 4-wire feed either. completely separate things here.

More info, the main panel is on an outside wall of the attached garage, which is brick on the outside. I looked inside the main panel and there are three large cables coming through the garage wall from the meter: one wrapped red, one wrapped black and one bare.

ok so no disconnect or other panel ahead of this garage panel? then that is your main.

I think there is a ground cable in the lower left corner of the main panel going through the garage floor.

this isnt a ground wire. it is the GEC for the grounding electrodes- either rods or UFER.

I'll have to open up the basement sub-panel to see if my assumptions are correct. Hopefully its better than I found in the main panel. The original owner of the house had told me his wife's uncle was a master electrician at the time the house was built in 73 and that he did a bunch of the electrical work. From what I have found in this house over the decades,.....I'd not hire him to work on my house.

what you need to check for is 4-wire feeder between main and subpanel

see post #3 on this thread for a reference.

Electrical FAQs

Welcome All I have started this sticky as an FAQ thread for info on the basics that are encountered countless times every week on here. Hopefully this will help some. If u have a topic request, go ahead and post it. And if you have an FAQ you would like covered let me know.... Or if you...

www.garagejournal.com

 

[sparky 1971]

I'll have to open up the basement sub-panel to see if my assumptions are correct. Hopefully its better than I found in the main panel. The original owner of the house had told me his wife's uncle was a master electrician at the time the house was built in 73 and that he did a bunch of the electrical work. From what I have found in this house over the decades,.....I'd not hire him to work on my house.

Everything is pretty well covered in the above post, but when you open the basement panel you should have four wires feeding it, two hots, a neutral and a ground, the equipment ground could be EMT but since it's a multi level split with panels on opposite ends, I doubt anyone was willing to work that hard and used a cable instead. You should also be able to open up the main panel and trace the subpanel feeder from the breaker back to see if there is indeed a four wire cable leaving the main to go to the sub.

 

[andyvh1959]

Its gotta be four wire feeding the sub panel in the basement, especially since I have an electric stove for which there there is a duplex breaker in the sub panel. Actually, there is another duplex breaker in the sub panel, unused, turned off, and spaces for another five breakers in the sub panel. So, plenty of room in the sub panel for expansion if needed.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Its gotta be four wire feeding the sub panel in the basement, especially since I have an electric stove for which there there is a duplex breaker in the sub panel. Actually, there is another duplex breaker in the sub panel, unused, turned off, and spaces for another five breakers in the sub panel. So, plenty of room in the sub panel for expansion if needed.

having an electric stove means nothing in terms of whether the feeder is 4-wire. prior to 1996 code cycle, stove and dryer circuits were allowed to be 3-wire, with the neutral bonding the chassis.

regardless, even a 4-wire stove circuit can connect to a 3-wire subpanel. they are not mutually exclusive

 

[andyvh1959]

Thanks for the clarity. I'll open the sub panel to confirm what is in there.