GFCI with Open Ground and Improperly Wired Sub-Panel

[Model A Fan]

I recently put in a GFCI in my garage so I could run heat tape to keep my pipes from freezing. The heat tape is supposed to be on a GFCI for safety.

I installed the GFCI in a metal box, then ran the 14/2 Romex to it. I then ran the romex into the panel where I was greeted with an unexpected surprise. The previous owner must have wired the panel on their own and never grounded the panel through the orange Romex they used (10/3 I believe).

The ground from the feeder to the panel is "grounded" into the neutral bar as are all the other grounds going in. The funny thing is that there (before I put in my GFCI) only one thing actually hooked up and working in the panel, a light switch right below the panel for an overhead LED.

What I'd like to do is correct the issue so my GFCI doesn't have an open ground. Can I correct this issue by taking the feeder ground and connecting it to the newly installed (by me) ground bar that my GFCI is connected to? My understanding is that this would correct the issue of an open ground and correctly wire the sub-panel for future use. When testing the GFCI, it pops as hot/neutral reversed. This isn't possible as the neutral is connected to the silver screw on the GFCI and then to the neutral bar. The black wire is connected to the gold screw and then to the breaker. There are pigtails inside the box for each wire (hot, neutral, ground). Ground is connected to the ground bar inside the sub-panel.

I plan on redoing the wiring in my garage anyway and having a bigger gauge feeder put in, but until I can get that done, this would be a stop-gap to keep everything functional.

Based on the photos, what is wrong with the sub-panel? I've identified the improperly grounded feeder needing to re fixed, and lack of ground bar in the box, which I addressed. I plan on pulling the grounds out of the neutral bar as well and removing the romex that is not being used.

For reference, the feeder romex ground wire is the slightly thicker bare copper directly to the right of the green wire in the neutral bar, next to an open neutral screw hole.

Thank you for your time and assistance.

 

[chinboys]

NEC code for the electrical sub-panel is not to have the ground and neutral bonded together in the sub-panel.

The ground bus bar must be separately grounded to its dedicated ground rod and its wire sized correctly.
The neutral bar in the sub-panel is tied back to the main panel's neutral bar.

 

[pattenp]

If this subpanel is in an attached garage of the structure that the main panel is there is no need for a ground rod for the subpanel. Isolation of the neutrals from the grounds should solve the problem. Be sure too remove the bonding screw from the neutral bar if one exist.

 

[PCustoms]

Attached or detached garage?

Any shots of how the romex that feeds this panel is wired on the other end? That might be your hot/neutral reverse issue...

For grounds, I think all you need to do is move your grounds down to the ground bar. Looks like the bonding screw (green screw) is already removed.

 

[Model A Fan]

If this subpanel is in an attached garage of the structure that the main panel is there is no need for a ground rod for the subpanel. Isolation of the neutrals from the grounds should solve the problem. Be sure too remove the bonding screw from the neutral bar if one exist.

This panel is in an attached garage. The main panel is about 20' away inside the house. The light that is currently wired in works properly, so I'm assuming the wiring is done properly. In the spring, I will likely hire an electrician to come in and run a bigger wire so I have more than 30A available in my garage.

What kind of wire would i be needing to run from inside the house, in the wall cavity between studs, through an attic, then back out of the attic into a garage?

Attached or detached garage?

Any shots of how the romex that feeds this panel is wired on the other end? That might be your hot/neutral reverse issue...

For grounds, I think all you need to do is move your grounds down to the ground bar. Looks like the bonding screw (green screw) is already removed.

I don't have anything showing the wiring of the garage readily available. I'd have to kill the power but that's not feasible right now. The green bond screw is just laying there, it is not being used.

Thank you for the replies.

Looks like if I ground the box properly, that will solve the issue. That's what I was assuming but I wanted to confirm first.

 

[PCustoms]

I don't have anything showing the wiring of the garage readily available. I'd have to kill the power but that's not feasible right now. The green bond screw is just laying there, it is not being used.

Thank you for the replies.

Looks like if I ground the box properly, that will solve the issue. That's what I was assuming but I wanted to confirm first.

Fixing the ground won't fix hot/neutral reverse. Everything in this panel looks ok, I suspect it's backwards in the main panel.

Are you uncomfortable pulling that cover?

If you move the breaker feeding the GFCI over 1 slot, what do you get?

 

[PCustoms]

Wait, that tester shows hot/neutral reversed only when you push the test button?

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

Sub Panel to a remote building so here you go!…….. Hope this helps!

BTW! This illustration is for a remote building (garage) and shows a ground rod so "IF" this sub panel is INSIDE a house you should NOT use a ground rod.

 

[PCustoms]

Sub Panel to a remote building so here you go!…….. Hope this helps!

BTW! This illustration is for a remote building (garage) and shows a ground rod so "IF" this sub panel is INSIDE a house you should NOT use a ground rod.

Useless per post #5

 

[Pompey]

What is the bare ground wire from the orange Romex connected to in the sub panel ? Do you have 240V coming into that subpanel ?

 

[sparky 1971]

Can I correct this issue by taking the feeder ground and connecting it to the newly installed (by me) ground bar that my GFCI is connected to?

Yes. Just splice it since it's not long enough. If you still have an open ground, check the main panel but I suspect you will find both the neutral and ground on the neutral bar which is fine for a main.

 

[PCustoms]

Yes. Just splice it since it's not long enough. If you still have an open ground, check the main panel but I suspect you will find both the neutral and ground on the neutral bar which is fine for a main.

My guess was white or red wrong in the main.

But then I saw the tester, I don't think mine gives hot/neutral reverse after you push "test"

Edit:

 

[sparky 1971]

My guess was white or red wrong in the main.

But then I saw the tester, I don't think mine gives hot/neutral reverse after you push "test"

The feeder ground is on the neutral bar and the panel isn't bonded, thus every device that is connected to the ground bar has an open ground. It won't show for any of the grounds landed on the neutral bar because the plug in tester doesn't know the difference.

 

[PCustoms]

The feeder ground is on the neutral bar and the panel isn't bonded, thus every device that is connected to the ground bar has an open ground. It won't show for any of the grounds landed on the neutral bar because the plug in tester doesn't know the difference.

I get the open ground, but why the hot/neutral reverse?

Disclaimer, I slept 4hrs last night

 

[sparky 1971]

I get the open ground, but why the hot/neutral reverse?

Disclaimer, I've been up for 16hrs

Those testers can light up all kinds of weird ways when the button is pushed. What matters is when no fingers are on the button and the photo that shows that being done is an open ground.

 

[PCustoms]

Those testers can light up all kinds of weird ways when the button is pushed. What matters is when no fingers are on the button and the photo that shows that being done is an open ground.

Agreed, I think the hot/neutral concerns aren't relevant

 

[sparky 1971]

But then I saw the tester, I don't think mine gives hot/neutral reverse after you push "test"

I just checked my new tester and it doesn't either. On my last tester, the one I left on a job last week plugged into a cabinet receptacle and closed the door, the lights would do different things when I pushed the test button. I didn't ever care enough to see what it was trying to tell me because when I push the button, all I care about is whether or not a GFCI trips.

 

[mm08822]

As stated already, move the ground wires from each branch circuit to the ground bar. Move the feeder ground wire to the ground block.

Check voltages:
L1 - N =120vac
L1 - G =120vac
L2 - N =120vac
L2 - G =120vac
L1 - L2 =240vac
N-G - 0vac

If all of those voltages appear, then you have fixed the original install issue.

 

[Model A Fan]

Here are the results of swapping thr feeder ground to the ground bar and putting the light switch ground to the ground bar. I relocated the ground bar and that other grounding wire is no longer on the neutral bar.

The GFCI had the correct wiring and when I tested the GFCI button, it tripped the GFCI to off and I had to reset it.

I removed one of the Romex lines as it was not plugged into/powering anything I could find (it's a spaghetti nest in my rafters from a previous DIYer).

Thank you for the help!

Here are the rafters

 

[mm08822]

Why is there still one ground wire on the neutral bar?

 

[PCustoms]

Why is there still one ground wire on the neutral bar?

And why are there more grounds then neutral?

 

[sparky 1971]

And why are there more grounds then neutral?

The green ground is for the switch and the ground that is still on the neutral bar is for the light being controlled by that switch, no neutral for the switch. The panel is being used as a raceway, which is naughty but since I've done it once or thirty times I can't be one to judge.

 

[dave*99]

Seems the newly installed ground bar is missing one of the Phillips head mounting screws. It should be held to the panel with 2 screws.

 

[sparky 1971]

Seems the newly installed ground bar is missing one of the Phillips head mounting screws. It should be held to the panel with 2 screws.

I don't think the ground bar is supposed to go there because I don't see the ground symbol but if if it works, who really cares? Most Square D panels only use one screw and a couple of line up pins cast into the back of the panel anyway.

 

[dave*99]

I don't think the ground bar is supposed to go there because I don't see the ground symbol but if if it works, who really cares? Most Square D panels only use one screw and a couple of line up pins cast into the back of the panel anyway.

Seems like there is a raised boss under the ground bar that could take a screw.

 

[RegeSullivan]

My guess was white or red wrong in the main.

But then I saw the tester, I don't think mine gives hot/neutral reverse after you push "test"

Edit:

I'd start by looking in the panel where the feed is coming from. I don't see anything in that panel that would give you the fault indicated assuming you've already checked that everything has a good connection (tight) in that sub-panel.

 

[PCustoms]

I'd start by looking in the panel where the feed is coming from. I don't see anything in that panel that would give you the fault indicated assuming you've already checked that everything has a good connection (tight) in that sub-panel.

Keep reading...

 

[Model A Fan]

Why is there still one ground wire on the neutral bar?

It's been removed but I did it after I took the photo. I was just highlighting the feeder ground was moved.

And why are there more grounds then neutral?

One ground for the switch, one ground for the feeder, one ground for the light the switch operates (via romex leaving the top of the box) and one ground for the GFCI.

The green ground is for the switch and the ground that is still on the neutral bar is for the light being controlled by that switch, no neutral for the switch. The panel is being used as a raceway, which is naughty but since I've done it once or thirty times I can't be one to judge.

I guess I could use conduit or something. I'm keeping it out of thr way. What would be proper?

Seems the newly installed ground bar is missing one of the Phillips head mounting screws. It should be held to the panel with 2 screws.

It only came with one screw, but I can probably rustle up a second. It may have been lost at some point as I opened it a while back.

I don't think the ground bar is supposed to go there because I don't see the ground symbol but if if it works, who really cares? Most Square D panels only use one screw and a couple of line up pins cast into the back of the panel anyway.

It has two bumps for mounting the ground bar. Is it possible the symbol is covered? I didn't really look, to be honest.

Seems like there is a raised boss under the ground bar that could take a screw.

Yes, there were two raised bumps that fit the hole pattern for the ground bar. I didn't have a second screw, and I was unsure if they came with two as the one I had didn't have a second.

 

[sparky 1971]

I guess I could use conduit or something. I'm keeping it out of thr way. What would be proper?

Leave it alone, the only reason that was brought up was to explain why there were more grounds than neutrals, so put the cover on and walk away from

 

[Model A Fan]

Leave it alone, the only reason that was brought up was to explain why there were more grounds than neutrals, so put the cover on and walk away from

I'm glad everything looks proper. Thank you all for the input and help.

I will leave this in place until I get an electrician to help figure out what is powering the other electrical sources in the garage.

As you can see from the photos of the many colored Romex(es), the mystery of the garage will take some time. I think if they can isolate the breakers powering the garage, then I can have them disconnected and I'll power them from the new 24 space sub-panel I'll install later.

There is 14/3 (blue) powering several outlets and mystery locations throughout the garage. Its all poorly done and quite a mess really.

 

[mm08822]

For the moment, best you realize there are multiple feeds to the garage.

Your future plan should include the new panel mentioned and a single feed to the garage.

As long as you can verify other circuits are dead, you can do a bunch of the demo work yourself to save a few $.

 

[rabidsquirrel]

For the moment, best you realize there are multiple feeds to the garage.

Your future plan should include the new panel mentioned and a single feed to the garage.

As long as you can verify other circuits are dead, you can do a bunch of the demo work yourself to save a few $.

It's an attached garage, you can have 1000 feeds going to it...

 

[RegeSullivan]

It's an attached garage, you can have 1000 feeds going to it...

I didn't understand the concern for the multiple feeds. Detached buildings are completely different and understandable not having multipal feeds.

I'd remove anything that looks sketchy but it likely lighting and outlets that were original to the house are ok. Just add your sub-panel for any electrical you want to add. I would not change out the 30 amp panel unless you need more power. A 30 amp 240 panel is going to give you more than most folks would need in a typical home shop.

 

[mm08822]

I missed post 5 stating attached.

 

[Model A Fan]

It's an attached garage, you can have 1000 feeds going to it...

I didn't understand the concern for the multiple feeds. Detached buildings are completely different and understandable not having multipal feeds.

I'd remove anything that looks sketchy but it likely lighting and outlets that were original to the house are ok. Just add your sub-panel for any electrical you want to add. I would not change out the 30 amp panel unless you need more power. A 30 amp 240 panel is going to give you more than most folks would need in a typical home shop.

I really only want a single feed so that if I need to add, work, or replace something, I have a singular breaker I can work from instead of spending a bunch of time figuring out which is which, I would know that the wiring is done properly, and I prefer tidy work over the abomination of a wiring job that's there currently. I have 7' rafters, and if I need to get into them for storage, I sometimes have to brush wiring aside. It is overall really poorly done, they used 14/3 probably because they had it instead of needing it, so its just a bunch of hokey work. I can't identify what the wiring powers either (granted I haven't gone CSI and gotten forensic with it), but I just dislike how terribly it is done. Someone cut an extension cord up and turned it into "Romex". The list goes on. The attic is similarly terrible.

If I were to be looking at this house and garage with the knowledge I have now about these sorts of things, I would have told my realtor, "NEXT!"

 

[mm08822]

Nothing a good pair of hedge cutters can't fix.

 

[RegeSullivan]

If I were to be looking at this house and garage with the knowledge I have now about these sorts of things, I would have told my realtor, "NEXT!"
[/QUOTE]

For what it's worth, I've never owned a house that didn't have atleast some sloppy or unacceptable (to me) wiring. We purchased our current home new. Found a number of unacceptable electrical problems including a bonded sub-panel, bare exposed wires (sliced by a utility knife) outlets not working because neutral disconnected from an outlet and a few things I would have expected an inspector to flag if he just did a walk thru.

I get pulling the crappy/sloppy work but why not use the 14/2 feed as for overhead lighting. If you ever trip the breaker on the 10/3 feed you still have light and if you trip the 14/2 you can plug in a light.

 

[grounded-b]

Wait, that tester shows hot/neutral reversed only when you push the test button?

That is Normal Operation of those testers

 

[PCustoms]

That is Normal Operation of those testers

Yes, that's why I asked the clarification