Home alarm battery backup issue

[infinkc]

I have a wired Honeywell system, it was installed with 2 12v 10ah batteries, one for the control board, one for the motion and glass sensors.

Problem I have is that the sensor battery drains way faster and sets the alarm off in a power outage.

I am thinking just wiring the 2 batteries in parallel and connecting it all together.

Or is there a better way? The current setup only lasts like 2 hours.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

how often do you have power outages?

how old are the batteries?

how many total motions and glass breaks?

 

[Innovate1]

how often do you have power outages?

how old are the batteries?

how many total motions and glass breaks?

These are good questions to start but it would help to know a lot more about the system. I wouldn't consider myself an alarm expert but I have installed a few. Typically home systems only use one battery and the sensors and panel run off the same battery. If there is a separate zone, say for a detached garage, it may have it's own battery and control board linked to the main one. What charges the sensor battery?

How old is the system? Wired or wireless sensors? Alarm batteries are easy to forget about over the years as they get weaker and need replacement. Some systems have an automatic battery test that can be set up.

Those are fairly big batteries for a home security system. Makes me wonder if it's a large home with lots of sensors. You could measure the current draw of each battery with utility power switched off. Then you would be able to size batteries so the sensor battery outlasts the control battery.

 

[BrandonV]

A photo or model would help. Whenever I install an alarm I make sure the battery backup adheres to the requirements set by UL for either a residential or commercial install. That sounds like it's not the case here.

 

[Shiftless]

My wireless system has just one battery that is smaller and during a power failure lasts 6 hours.
The system is about 3 years old.

 

[wssix99]

The batteries don't last very long and need to be swapped out every couple of years. As they get old, they don't hold a charge.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

These are good questions to start but it would help to know a lot more about the system. I wouldn't consider myself an alarm expert but I have installed a few. Typically home systems only use one battery and the sensors and panel run off the same battery. If there is a separate zone, say for a detached garage, it may have it's own battery and control board linked to the main one. What charges the sensor battery?

How old is the system? Wired or wireless sensors? Alarm batteries are easy to forget about over the years as they get weaker and need replacement. Some systems have an automatic battery test that can be set up.

Those are fairly big batteries for a home security system. Makes me wonder if it's a large home with lots of sensors. You could measure the current draw of each battery with utility power switched off. Then you would be able to size batteries so the sensor battery outlasts the control battery.

Yea 2x 10ah batteries are very large for a residential burglar alarm.

Even commercial i typically see 1x 7ah.

The reason i asked about the # of sensors is because we could make a rough calculation on what the total load of all the sensors is…

 

[infinkc]

Yea 2x 10ah batteries are very large for a residential burglar alarm.

Even commercial i typically see 1x 7ah.

The reason i asked about the # of sensors is because we could make a rough calculation on what the total load of all the sensors is…

For some reason our Christmas lights have been tripping the ARC fault breakers, but not all the time. And unfortunately its on the same circuit as the alarm. So we have been waken up at night from the alarm going off since the breaker tripped. But this has always bugged me, but just happens more now cause the lights.

Batteries i just checked i replaced them in 2021 with these LiFePo4 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0973K15QR?tag=atomicindus08-20

This is a Honeywell system Vista 20P
Has 3 color touch pads https://buildings.honeywell.com/us/...s/6280-color-graphic-voice-touchscreen-keypad
Has 4 glass break sensors
3 motion sensors
everything is hardwired

 

[BrandonV]

For some reason our Christmas lights have been tripping the ARC fault breakers, but not all the time. And unfortunately its on the same circuit as the alarm. So we have been waken up at night from the alarm going off since the breaker tripped. But this has always bugged me, but just happens more now cause the lights.

Batteries i just checked i replaced them in 2021 with these LiFePo4 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0973K15QR?tag=atomicindus08-20

This is a Honeywell system Vista 20P
Has 3 color touch pads https://buildings.honeywell.com/us/...s/6280-color-graphic-voice-touchscreen-keypad
Has 4 glass break sensors
3 motion sensors
everything is hardwired

Can you take a picture of inside the can?

I've installed hundreds of Vista 20Ps... The only time I've used the battery harness kit for a second battery is to increase the capacity by putting them in parallel.

I also never use anything but Yuasa VRLA batteries per Honeywell/Ademco, but those with an integrated BMS should in theory work just fine as a drop in replacement.

With 20Ah, I'd just guestimate conservatively somewhere around 20 hours of backup so something isn't wired how I expect it to be.

 

[Innovate1]

For some reason our Christmas lights have been tripping the ARC fault breakers, but not all the time. And unfortunately its on the same circuit as the alarm. So we have been waken up at night from the alarm going off since the breaker tripped. But this has always bugged me, but just happens more now cause the lights.

Batteries i just checked i replaced them in 2021 with these LiFePo4 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0973K15QR?tag=atomicindus08-20

This is a Honeywell system Vista 20P
Has 3 color touch pads https://buildings.honeywell.com/us/...s/6280-color-graphic-voice-touchscreen-keypad
Has 4 glass break sensors
3 motion sensors
everything is hardwired

Was the LiFePo4 battery intended to just drop in to replace a AGM battery. I don't know much about it but some batteries have built in balance controllers and other things needed. If not, just swapping the battery is not going to get the proper charge and could have reduced capacity or life.

Sounds like the Arc fault breaker is a second problem that needs to be solved. I have a few where they were required when the house was built and haven't had any trouble with them.

 

[justsam]

Are the color touch pads going into sleep mode? Do they wake up by any touch on the screen or proximity? These will draw far more power than the sensors. As others have mentioned make sure the built in charging circuit is proper for the battery chemistry being used.

 

[dcg9381]

For some reason our Christmas lights have been tripping the ARC fault breakers, but not all the time. And unfortunately its on the same circuit as the alarm. So we have been waken up at night from the alarm going off since the breaker tripped. But this has always bugged me, but just happens more now cause the lights.

ARC breakers or dual AFI/GFI? Because if it's the latter, those POS - I have my own non-NEC-compliant solution.

Agree with others, load test the batteries. If they are 2 years old, you're probably gonna be replacing them.

My concern with putting them in parallel is that there are probably two "existing" charge circuits. That's "probably" OK, but not ideal. And they'd need to be replaced at the same time with the same exact type to keep them in "balance" as much as possible.

Was the LiFePo4 battery intended to just drop in to replace a AGM battery. I don't know much about it but some batteries have built in balance controllers and other things needed. If not, just swapping the battery is not going to get the proper charge and could have reduced capacity or life.

LiFePo4 are frequently used in "replacement" for some AGM applications. I've had good luck with them. If you do not adjust their charging parameters (most cases) you're only going to be charging them to about 80% capacity, which is certainly not the end of the world. I've used them like that with RVs and they've been fine. In my experience, they do "last longer" and have better life over standard AGM or lead-acid, they're lighter, and they're more expensive.

As you can't really "fully discharge" lead acid or AGM like you can LiFePo4, it can be argued that their capacity is "better" even charged to 80%, but it really depends on application and draw at low capacity.

LiFePo4's are made up of "cells" and internally some of these batteries balance those cells when charged to capacity, some don't (cheaper ones)... Likely you'll not know the difference unless you open them up. You want a battery that balances cells.

Can you just throw more raw capacity at this? IE, stuff bigger AGMs in a box somewhere?

 

[rsparks64]

We have one battery in our system, and it lasted about 4 years before it needed replacing.

 

[infinkc]

Can you take a picture of inside the can?

I've installed hundreds of Vista 20Ps... The only time I've used the battery harness kit for a second battery is to increase the capacity by putting them in parallel.

I also never use anything but Yuasa VRLA batteries per Honeywell/Ademco, but those with an integrated BMS should in theory work just fine as a drop in replacement.

With 20Ah, I'd just guestimate conservatively somewhere around 20 hours of backup so something isn't wired how I expect it to be.

Will grab some pics, Yea i am curious now also if something isnt wired right, i know it is somewhat a mess in the panel.

Was the LiFePo4 battery intended to just drop in to replace a AGM battery. I don't know much about it but some batteries have built in balance controllers and other things needed. If not, just swapping the battery is not going to get the proper charge and could have reduced capacity or life.

Sounds like the Arc fault breaker is a second problem that needs to be solved. I have a few where they were required when the house was built and haven't had any trouble with them.

They are intended to be drop in replacements. have use them for other replacements and havent had any issues.

Are the color touch pads going into sleep mode? Do they wake up by any touch on the screen or proximity? These will draw far more power than the sensors. As others have mentioned make sure the built in charging circuit is proper for the battery chemistry being used.

They are going to sleep, They are wired to the panel and that battery doesnt drain as fast, its the battery that has the sensors that is depleting faster.

ARC breakers or dual AFI/GFI? Because if it's the latter, those POS - I have my own non-NEC-compliant solution.

Agree with others, load test the batteries. If they are 2 years old, you're probably gonna be replacing them.

My concern with putting them in parallel is that there are probably two "existing" charge circuits. That's "probably" OK, but not ideal. And they'd need to be replaced at the same time with the same exact type to keep them in "balance" as much as possible.


LiFePo4 are frequently used in "replacement" for some AGM applications. I've had good luck with them. If you do not adjust their charging parameters (most cases) you're only going to be charging them to about 80% capacity, which is certainly not the end of the world. I've used them like that with RVs and they've been fine. In my experience, they do "last longer" and have better life over standard AGM or lead-acid, they're lighter, and they're more expensive.

As you can't really "fully discharge" lead acid or AGM like you can LiFePo4, it can be argued that their capacity is "better" even charged to 80%, but it really depends on application and draw at low capacity.

LiFePo4's are made up of "cells" and internally some of these batteries balance those cells when charged to capacity, some don't (cheaper ones)... Likely you'll not know the difference unless you open them up. You want a battery that balances cells.

Can you just throw more raw capacity at this? IE, stuff bigger AGMs in a box somewhere?

AFI/GFI breakers. As of right now it has tripped 2 times in the last 2 hours. Last 3 days, zero trips. Nothing new has been plugged in, or changed.
The batteries are meant to last 10 years, but i will test them.
Yea i could probably toss a UPS on the main power and that would run for quite long.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Those sensors are drawing MAYBE 6w. Most motions are rated in the 100mw range… glass breaks are even less.

Even if the sensors were drawing 1a (12w), you should get about 10hrs backup power.

 

[infinkc]

Those sensors are drawing MAYBE 6w. Most motions are rated in the 100mw range… glass breaks are even less.

Even if the sensors were drawing 1a (12w), you should get about 10hrs backup power.

guess im doing some testing tomorrow to see where the draw is.

 

[dcg9381]

AFI/GFI breakers. As of right now it has tripped 2 times in the last 2 hours. Last 3 days, zero trips. Nothing new has been plugged in, or changed.

These are terrible in my opinion. Replace with AFI breaker and put a GFI at the first outlet to stay compliant... Or violate modern NEC.

 

[rharman]

FWiW.... I have a Vista 20P. My backup battery lasts about 6 hours and I replace it about every 3-4 years. Same with the IP/Cellular Communicator.

I also added an APC UPS 1500VA battery backup just for peace of mind. It's really rare that we have an outage but there was a time when SoCal Edison was doing a lot of upgrades and we'd have day long outages while they replaced lines & poles.

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