Want to replace panel. What would you use and how would you do it?

[impactims]

A 50 year old Zinsco Sylvania panel in my garage. Not giving me any trouble, but I would like to replace it.

This is a detached garage and this panel is hooked to the meter from the power company. So, it is a 200amp panel. It has 2 main breakers at 100amp each. One of the 100amp main breaker goes another panel in the house and the other 100amp main breakers feeds the circuits of the detached garage. I’ve done my share of electrical work, but I’ve never dealt with 2 mains like this before.

 

[impactims]

So would you just use a 200amp panel then relocate the 100amp breaker for the house from the feed side to the load side and have a single 200amp breaker at the feed side?

Or would you stick with the original layout and keep the two 100amp mains on the feed side?

 

[brewchief]

I would use a 200 amp panel with a 100 amp feeding the house, how many wires feeding to the house? If it's just 3 you will most likely need to replace with a 4 wire feed. You may also now need an outside disconnect at the meter.

 

[BillK]

So your meter is at the garage ? That makes the house panel a subpanel ?

 

[mm08822]

Where are you located and what code cycle are you on?

PICS of outside meter and step back from panel for wider view would also help.

 

[impactims]

So your meter is at the garage ? That makes the house panel a subpanel ?

Correct on both counts.

 

[impactims]

Where are you located and what code cycle are you on?

Portland Oregon

Not sure about code cycle.

 

[impactims]

I would use a 200 amp panel with a 100 amp feeding the house, how many wires feeding to the house? If it's just 3 you will most likely need to replace with a 4 wire feed. You may also now need an outside disconnect at the meter.

3 going to house.

Hot, hot, neutral. The house has its own ground rod.

 

[impactims]

PICS of outside meter and step back from panel for wider view would also help.

I’ll get the pics in a min.

 

[mm08822]

Portland Oregon

Not sure about code cycle.

Just looked....2023 NEC code cycle.

So that means an outside disconnect required (if not already required in your locality)
surge suppression device
2 ground rods (or equivalent).

Check with your POCO if they specify metering and disconnect hardware. Could be combo meter-mains are preferred/required.

 

[BillK]

Correct on both counts.

First of all I am not sure I would consider that a 200 amp panel but I have never seen one like that either ? What size are the wires feeding the panel at the top ? Its almost like it is a 100 amp panel with the top breaker feeding a 100 amp subpanel in the house.

 

[impactims]

Panel is 12x26x4

 

[impactims]

Meter…

 

[impactims]

First of all I am not sure I would consider that a 200 amp panel but I have never seen one like that either ? What size are the wires feeding the panel at the top ? It’s almost like it is a 100 amp panel with the top breaker feeding a 100 amp subpanel in the house.

Hmm, I’ll measure the feed cables from the meter.

 

[impactims]

First of all I am not sure I would consider that a 200 amp panel but I have never seen one like that either ? What size are the wires feeding the panel at the top ? Its almost like it is a 100 amp panel with the top breaker feeding a 100 amp subpanel in the house.

.685 including the insulation jacket as shown.

 

[mm08822]

Get the POCO service specs before you go any further.

Your workbench will need to be removed to pass any inspection.

 

[impactims]

I would use a 200 amp panel with a 100 amp feeding the house, how many wires feeding to the house? If it's just 3 you will most likely need to replace with a 4 wire feed.

3 for sure…

Black, Black, Black/White

 

[Hohn]

Hmm, I’ll measure the feed cables from the meter.

AWG should be printed on the jacket of the wire.

I suppose that practice has a start date at some point so it’s possible older wires wouldn’t be lableled.

 

[mm08822]

.685 including the insulation jacket as shown.

Certainly measures big enough to be 4/0 AL......possibly larger. I'm not sure what diameters were back in the 80's. Insulation types have upgraded over the years. You're only talking about a few feet of conductor so I wouldn't be worried about it. It may all have to come out anyway depending on POCO requirements of today.

 

[impactims]

AWG should be printed on the jacket of the wire.

I suppose that practice has a start date at some point so it’s possible older wires wouldn’t be lableled.

4/0 is .46” diameter

I measure .685” but that includes the jacket. Looks like legitimate 4/0 aluminum…

 

[impactims]

So what about the 3 vs 4 wires going to the house…


How do I determine if I can keep it at 3?

 

[PCustoms]

How do I determine if I can keep it at 3?

More then likely a permit and panel change is going to trigger a full upgrade.

Why change anything?

 

[impactims]

More then likely a permit and panel change is going to trigger a full upgrade.

Why change anything?

Well, I got started down this rabbit hole because I got to looking into a way to hook up a back-up generator to the garage panel to power the house and garage during a power outage. As is, that would be a problem. A modern panel would allow for that with ease.

 

[impactims]

I am up for a panel change while keeping everything else the same, which is what I wanted to do. But a full change over is biting off more that I can chew for sure.

 

[PCustoms]

Well, I got started down this rabbit hole because I got to looking into a way to hook up a back-up generator to the garage panel to power the house and garage during a power outage. As is, that would be a problem. A modern panel would allow for that with ease.

This is a good detail to know.

You doing this yourself,or hiring it out?

Do you need to pull permits?

What's the panel at the house look like?

How far to the house?

You said House is detached? Any idea what the conduit looks like between the two?

 

[Bert_]

What you have now is a split bus panel. Years ago they were fairly common. Saved cost because it didn't have a large 200A breaker. Any new panel will have a single main breaker.

 

[impactims]

This is a good detail to know.

You doing this yourself,or hiring it out?

Do you need to pull permits?

What's the panel at the house look like?

How far to the house?

You said House is detached? Any idea what the conduit looks like between the two?

Just a panel change over w/ all else unchanged, I can and would do.

House has a modern DSquare Homeline.

House is very close to garage. Steps away.

The conduit going from the garage to the house is in the concrete. Not sure what specifically you want to know, but it looks good. Flexible, galvanized steel, pretty sure.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

First of all I am not sure I would consider that a 200 amp panel but I have never seen one like that either ? What size are the wires feeding the panel at the top ? Its almost like it is a 100 amp panel with the top breaker feeding a 100 amp subpanel in the house.

its a split bus panel

 

[wyliesdiesels]

So what about the 3 vs 4 wires going to the house…


How do I determine if I can keep it at 3?

do you have metal conduit feeding the house (or any other metallic pathways between garage and house ie water gas phone internet etc)? if so you will need 4-wire

 

[mm08822]

So the plot thickens..........more details.

Depending on size of gen and whether a manual or automatic transfer is desired, drives the hardware options.

Are you looking for a whole house automatic backup or a manual transfer with an interlocked power inlet circuit from a portable generator connection?

What must run and what is desired to run.......that's 2 questions.

 

[impactims]

So the plot thickens..........more details.

Depending on size of gen and whether a manual or automatic transfer is desired, drives the hardware options.

Are you looking for a whole house automatic backup or a manual transfer with an interlocked power inlet circuit from a portable generator connection?

What must run and what is desired to run.......that's 2 questions.

The plan is to run heaters in the event that temps get below freezing and the power goes out. Think ice storm, idiot around the corner does not maintain his trees, limb falls due to all the ice and wind, power goes out. Below freezing out, pipes freeze.....

Thats what I want to avoid.

Switching manually with interlock to prevent backfeeding voltage. Portable generator. 10kw likely.

What MUST run, space heaters. A few of them. 1500watts each. Fridge, cell chargers.

 

[PCustoms]

The plan is to run heaters in the event that temps get below freezing and the power goes out. Think ice storm, idiot around the corner does not maintain his trees, limb falls due to all the ice and wind, power goes out. Below freezing out, pipes freeze.....

Thats what I want to avoid.

Switching manually with interlock to prevent backfeeding voltage. Portable generator. 10kw likely.

What MUST run, space heaters. A few of them. 1500watts each. Fridge, cell chargers.

What's your normal heating system?

 

[Norcal]

Since it is now required to have a emergency disconnect outside, I would use a feed through meter main panel in place of the existing meter can, and the new service should be able to support a interlock kit to allow for a generator if desired, if funds are tight it could be done in two parts, do the meter/disco 1st, then swap the panel.

 

[impactims]

What's your normal heating system?

Gas furnace.

Not up to the task alone when temps drop below 20 degrees F.

 

[impactims]

UPDATE: I called the power company today and it appears that the power company will pull and reinstall the meter no questions asked which tells me there is a pretty good chance I can replace the panel without having to update all the other stuff, which I am not up for. I really want a new panel though.

1) To be able to hook a generator to the panel.

2) These panels are a problem waiting to happen. Shotty design. 50 years old, needs to be replaced.

All the other updates....honestly, I think I can live happily ever after without even though I do see the advantage to them. Just not up for all that right now nor will I be in the near future. Too many irons in the fire. The panel alone, I can take on.

 

[manwithtools]

Your workbench will need to be removed to pass any inspection.

And the shelf above the workbench too.

 

[dave*99]

Since it is now required to have a emergency disconnect outside, I would use a feed through meter main panel in place of the existing meter can, and the new service should be able to support a interlock kit to allow for a generator if desired, if funds are tight it could be done in two parts, do the meter/disco 1st, then swap the panel.

^ And this solution rids you of that rusty meter pan.....

 

[green jeans]

So yes, you have chooses, less $ would be to install 200amp disconnect outside next to meter, then feed 200 amps back in with new 200 amp main breaker panel and sub feed house at 100 amps( hopefully 4Wire), new ground rods, may need to see if ground electrode going to water main is right size/or just needs bonding. then install interlock with 30 or 50 amp power outlet to portable gen. use green and red stickers for circuits that must be ON and red Stricker's for must be OFF. or get a 200 transfer switch(label emerg disconnect inside) and go standby $$$ plus permit fee.