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Dead outlet after power outage...but why?

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joseywales

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30 year old house.

Last night, we had a couple brownouts, then a blackout for 2 hours.

I went to the garage and one of the outlets is dead, but not the others. I'm fairly certain they're all on the same 15AMP breaker.

No breakers were tripped

I turn the garage breaker off and on just for kicks. No effect

there are no GFI on that circuit and the GFIs in the kitchen are good to go

I pulled the outlet cover and metered the wires...nothing

Uh...WTH?
 
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u2slow

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What else is on the circuit?

A load of an inductive nature and rapid power cycling (common with an outage) can burn up a weak connection.
 
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joseywales

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LopezBart said:
Was anything plugged in and drawing juice at the time from that outlet?
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Yes. I have a bench light and I have a bench, with built-in outlets, all of which plugs into the outlet. However, I discovered a dead outside outlet...apparently these two outlets are also tied to...my powder room. And damn, that GFI is dead and won't reset, so my guess is that's the culprit. I had no idea that an outside outlet and 1st floor power room were tied to one outlet in the garage...

thanks!
 
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Gozo

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joseywales said:
Yes. I have a bench light and I have a bench, with built-in outlets, all of which plugs into the outlet. However, I discovered a dead outside outlet...apparently these two outlets are also tied to...my powder room. And damn, that GFI is dead and won't reset, so my guess is that's the culprit. I had no idea that an outside outlet and 1st floor power room were tied to one outlet in the garage...

thanks!
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Real common in homes of the 80’s vintage. Bathroom requirements for GFI, and they tie the garage into the bathroom to use one GFI for all the required locations. Like saving on the cost of a GFI outlet is going to make or break the profit margin on the house.
I got one like that in my house. These days the cost of the additional wire far offsets the additional GFI.
 
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joseywales

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PCustoms said:
Go reset the breaker that that gfci was on
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I had, but you nailed it the first time. When the breaker trick didn't work, I said, follow the water...

On the upside, my wife is hot, so she doesn't require a lot of "prep" to go to work in the morning. However, it also means that she never noticed the Master Bathroom outlets were all dead. There's a GIF "hidden" inside our double sink cabinet. I thought it would be great to have an outlet in there, to charge my razor, etc. And it is great...until you're looking for a dead GFI

Happy New Year everyone!
 
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rickpaulos

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A gfi socket started randomly tripping at the business. I replaced it. Easy peasy, works fine. For my own info I took the old GFI outlet apart. I could see nothing wrong. I put it back together. Then I found a tiny sliver of wire on the table top where I had taken the outlet apart. It was inside the the outlet itself so there is no way it could have gotten in there anywhere but at the factory. about 3/8" long, 1 strand of flex wire. Probably was touching some metal parts in there. This outlet was just a few feet from a door so it may have been shaken by the door closing for a few decades. There is a street about 10 feet away that gets some heavy truck traffic at times. Garbage trucks, delivery trucks, snow plows. They were also pile driving across the street to build a new flood wall. All that pounding and shaking could have moved that shred of wire inside the outlet.

I don't think gfi outlets are a good idea. A better way is gfi circuit breakers. When people trip a gfi, their knee jerk reaction is to just reach over and push the reset button with their wet hands. No time taken to think about what they just did to try to electrocute themselves. If you have to walk to the main panel in the basement or garage or where ever, that give you time to think about what just happened. The new combo breakers also include arc fault detection which is probably the best invention ever to prevent fires in your house.
 
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RegeSullivan

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rickpaulos said:
A gfi socket started randomly tripping at the business. I replaced it. Easy peasy, works fine. For my own info I took the old GFI outlet apart. I could see nothing wrong. I put it back together. Then I found a tiny sliver of wire on the table top where I had taken the outlet apart. It was inside the the outlet itself so there is no way it could have gotten in there anywhere but at the factory. about 3/8" long, 1 strand of flex wire. Probably was touching some metal parts in there. This outlet was just a few feet from a door so it may have been shaken by the door closing for a few decades. There is a street about 10 feet away that gets some heavy truck traffic at times. Garbage trucks, delivery trucks, snow plows. They were also pile driving across the street to build a new flood wall. All that pounding and shaking could have moved that shred of wire inside the outlet.

I don't think gfi outlets are a good idea. A better way is gfi circuit breakers. When people trip a gfi, their knee jerk reaction is to just reach over and push the reset button with their wet hands. No time taken to think about what they just did to try to electrocute themselves. If you have to walk to the main panel in the basement or garage or where ever, that give you time to think about what just happened. The new combo breakers also include arc fault detection which is probably the best invention ever to prevent fires in your house.
Click to expand...
Pretty sure you immediately trip the gfci before you felt the shock.
 
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75gmck25

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GFCI breakers may be a good idea, until you need to buy one. I purchased a new breaker recently and the QO 50 amp dual breaker was about $37. The 60 amp GFCI dual breaker was $169 and it was attached to the display with a security device. I decided it was not necessary to have a GFCI on the receptacle for my kitchen range.
 
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whateg01

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75gmck25 said:
GFCI breakers may be a good idea, until you need to buy one. I purchased a new breaker recently and the QO 50 amp dual breaker was about $37. The 60 amp GFCI dual breaker was $169 and it was attached to the display with a security device. I decided it was not necessary to have a GFCI on the receptacle for my kitchen range.
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Going through this right now. Had wanted an outlet for the welder on the outside of the garage. Oh, an outside outlet - probably should make that GFCI. Looked at the breakers and decided I can live with an outlet just inside the overhead door.
 
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sparky 1971

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whateg01 said:
Going through this right now. Had wanted an outlet for the welder on the outside of the garage. Oh, an outside outlet - probably should make that GFCI. Looked at the breakers and decided I can live with an outlet just inside the overhead door.
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If you're wanting to be code compliant, that welder receptacle in the garage is supposed to be GFCI protected as of the 2020 NEC...
 
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lolaetype

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joseywales said:
where were you 20 minutes ago...HAHA. Truth is, I NEVER thought these were on the same circuit as the one outlet in the garage. 8 years ago I started to map and log these circuits, but a squirrel ran by...
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I often think about labeling the inside of each receptacle and light switch cover plate with the number of the breaker that controls that outlet or switch. Then I think of about half a billion more fun things to do.
 
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whateg01

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sparky 1971 said:
If you're wanting to be code compliant, that welder receptacle in the garage is supposed to be GFCI protected as of the 2020 NEC...
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Good to know. Maybe I won't be adding that receptacle after all. I'll just keep using the existing outlets as they are. Goodness gracious what's not required to be GFCI or afci anymore...
 
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wyliesdiesels

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lolaetype said:
I often think about labeling the inside of each receptacle and light switch cover plate with the number of the breaker that controls that outlet or switch. Then I think of about half a billion more fun things to do.
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why label the inside? in commercial we label it right on the faceplate. putting it on the inside just makes things more difficult
 
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wyliesdiesels

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whateg01 said:
Good to know. Maybe I won't be adding that receptacle after all. I'll just keep using the existing outlets as they are. Goodness gracious what's not required to be GFCI or afci anymore...
Click to expand...
you can thank the idiot that didnt connect the EGC on an AC condenser/compressor which resulted in the electrocution of a kid.
 
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lolaetype

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wyliesdiesels said:
why label the inside? in commercial we label it right on the faceplate. putting it on the inside just makes things more difficult
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Just my preference, but I don't want the commercial look of labeled wall plates all over the house. Your suggestion does make sense in a commercial setting though.
 
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Rc_Guy

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Didn’t read everything but the outside outlet needs a GFI and it’s cheaper to put a GFI inside and then the outside outlet downstream from that one
 
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sparky 1971

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RegeSullivan said:
2022 nec does. Inspector even wanted my basement shop to have AFCI because it is considered finished. Only the garage and outdoor outlets in my home doesn't require AFCI.
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There is no 2022 NEC, 2020 or 2023. And AFCI protection is not required in those locations. A basement shop would require it due to it being a finished room since it's not a bathroom, garage, outdoor, furnace, or unfinished room. And there's nothing that says you can't have an AFCI breaker for the bathroom but they can't make you unless there is a local amendment, in writing, on the books. A lot of contractors just use AFCI/GFCI combo breakers for everything but I'm not one of them and that might be why your bath has it.

You listed garage and outdoors as needing GFCI in addition to AFCI, but then came back and said your garage and outside are the only places that don't have AFCI. :headscrat
 
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sparky 1971

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RegeSullivan said:
I'm sure you are correct. I've learned not to argue with the AHJ but I did question the basement shop and bathroom. His answer to the best of my recollection... it's similar living space and not specifically excluded.
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It's too late now for the bathroom but I would have argued it. The basement shop is kind of a gray area because if it's a finished room, they could argue that the tools could come out and it becomes a living room and since it probably wasn't set up as a shop yet when he did the final.... The list for AFCI requirements is below:

210.12 Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection

(A) Dwelling Units All 120 volt, single phase, 15 and 20 ampere branch circuits supplying outlets or devices installed in dwelling unit kitchens, family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, laundry areas, or similar rooms or areas shall be protected by any of the means described in 210.12(A)1 through (6)

It then goes on to list different ways to accomplish it.


The closest it comes to bathrooms is "similar rooms" since it has walls and a door.
 
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Viper98912

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lolaetype said:
I often think about labeling the inside of each receptacle and light switch cover plate with the number of the breaker that controls that outlet or switch. Then I think of about half a billion more fun things to do.
Click to expand...
After noticing one day that about 7 breakers are shifted down by one slot in my panel (when compared to the labels), and the hand written labels aren't great descriptors to begin with, I ended up making a new label with all of the breakers correctly and better labeled (and yes, the wiring and ratings are correct, it was just a handwriting error). This required turning off all the breakers one by one and yelling across the house at my wife to ask her what had shut off.

At the same time, I also went ahead and took a sharpie pen and put the breaker number on the inside of each outlet and switch plate. This makes things super easy in the future, especially when sometimes an outlet isn't on the circuit you think it is and you're having to switch through multiple breakers trying to find the right one. It took some time to do at first, but it honestly went by fairly quickly if you've got a simple small drill driver.
 
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BrandonV

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Viper98912 said:
At the same time, I also went ahead and took a sharpie pen and put the breaker number on the inside of each outlet and switch plate. This makes things super easy in the future, especially when sometimes an outlet isn't on the circuit you think it is and you're having to switch through multiple breakers trying to find the right one. It took some time to do at first, but it honestly went by fairly quickly if you've got a simple small drill driver.
Click to expand...

I've used these before with decorator receptacles. Very clean install with a nice printed label. Not for everyone I suppose. :LOL:

1735444243531.png
 
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BreeStephany

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The Cobbler said:
until they are removed for painting and put back on randomly :lol_hitti
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My solution, especially in commercial, was to either label or sharpie the panel # & circuit number into every box and to write/label the same in gutters / large junction boxes where conduits entered / exited.

In controls / industrial, I used a LOT of heatshrink wire labels to lable each conductor with the voltage, panel/circuit # and wire # both where they enter the cabinet / enclosire and where they terminated.

Proper and consistent labeling makes troubleshooting a heck of a lot easier for the next person, especially in industrial controls & automation where there may be HUNDREDS of line voltage and low voltage conductors terminating all in the same cabinet, where correct labeling and upkeep of labeling makes future retrofits / rebuilds / upgrades so much easier.

I just always try and label everything and that has carried through into my residential work, especially where there is more than 1 circuit in a junction.
 
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dave*99

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Viper98912 said:
I ended up making a new label with all of the breakers correctly and better labeled (and yes, the wiring and ratings are correct, it was just a handwriting error). This required turning off all the breakers one by one and yelling across the house at my wife to ask her what had shut off.
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There is a tool for that. Or you can plug a radio into the circuit and listen to the sound stop when you find the right breaker. But sometimes shouting at the wife is therapeutic..... YMMV

1735472647115.png
 
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sparky 1971

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RegeSullivan said:
Thanks for quoting the NEC. For a couple hundred bucks I didn't think it was worth arguing especially with out a code book in my pocket.

Do you know if there is a logical reason require AFCI in the laundry area but not a bathroom?
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From what I understand from code update classes, AFCI's don't stand a chance against a hairdryer but I can't confirm that to be true.
 
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