Is ICON the new Craftsman?

[dscheidt]

Most of the "old school" hardware stores near me have been Ace Hardware or True Value stores.

Ace has been around a long time. According to Wikipedia, Ace hardware started in the 1920s with the first stores located in the Chicago area. It looks like they were close to a coast to coast operation by the 1960s.

Ace Hardware

True Value goes back to the late 1940s, and again looks like it was pretty wide spread by the 1960s.

True Value

ace, true value, and do-it best are all buyers cooperatives. The stores are independent, but the co-op gets volume discounts, stuff with the brand name on it, etc. The hardware store that is by my former office was one of the original Ace stores. It opened in 1880 or so. it changed ownership a few years ago, and they sold off a bunch of stuff they pulled from the basement, including a bunch of very cool hardware cabinets, solid oak, and with hand written labels. In German, because the founders were german...

People who didn't shop at Sears shopped somewhere else. Montgomery Ward sold pretty good tools, and had a pretty complete line into the early 80s, so did other department store chains. Hardware stores sold tools, of course, so did lumberyards, brickyards, supply houses for whatever trade. Automotive tools came from the autoparts store. The independent place my dad went to sold lots of blackhawk stuff, and had a lot of open stock wrenches, sockets, pliers, as well as pullers, and jacks, etc. When I was running a shop in the early 2000s, I bought a fair amount of shop tools, mostly specialty stuff, from one of the parts places we bought parts from. The outside sales guy there would tell me things like "the axle seal you're buying takes a 3 1/8 seal driver, you need one? What about the axle nut socket, that's 2 3/16?", and if I did, well, he got a sale. Hard to beat the tool showing up with the parts in an hour or so, and they had all sorts of stuff.

 

[Sumboodie]

I just looked it up on the Craftsman website. Every place that they say carries Craftsman tools (NAPA, ACE Hardware) does not have them in stock at my local stores. Harbor Freight is next closest at 9 miles, the Lowes that does carry Craftsman is 25 miles. Not such an “easy exchange” for me, sadly.

25 miles is a short trip in my neck of the woods.

 

[Hohn]

tl;dr I see HF as the new Sears Tools Department. Icon is just one of the options.

The days of brick and mortar stores are fading. Unless I need something right now I'd rather have something shipped for free to me than deal with the general public.

HF is probably the closes to the old Sears, but in reality there no new Craftsman. The Craftsman experience you had-- especially with buying and warrantying individuals on the spot in a brick-and-mortar store-- that experience no longer exists.

HF wants you to bring in a whole set and buy a whole new set. Yes, if you do some digging you can buy individuals. But just try returning a single socket to HF and see how it goes.

So, given that B&M is mostly dead, and that HF's main claim to the Craftsman title is being B&M, I'd say that HF isn't the new craftsman. And that nobody can be as I define the craftsman thing above (warrantying individual parts no questions asked in B&M walk-in).

So what does that look like today? I think it looks a lot like Tekton's approach. They will sell you any individual and warranty is a texted pic away. The replacement shows up in about the same amount of time an Amazon prime delivery does. IMO, this is even better than brick and mortar in many ways. If you need same day replacement, well then you're out of luck. Then again, what self-respecting GJer has only one way to do something? Please tell me you aren't at work stoppage for a lost 10mm.


I don't miss the old Craftsman days even though I bought a LOT of stuff there in the 80s and 90s. The reason why is that for similar money now (in real dollars) I can get a far, far superior tool. Sometimes that better tool even says Craftsman on it, but often it says Icon or Tekton or Capri or Astro or Sunex or Williams or Gearwrench. Or (if I'm lucky) KTC or Nepros.

We have better tools at lower real cost than ever before. And it's never been more convenient to buy or replace them (nor less likely to need a replacement because of the higher quality).

Some of the Icon stuff is the best I've ever owned (deep chrome metric 6pt sockets, for example, that fight tight like a Snappy and even have the similar shallow broaching).

Other Icon stuff is merely good (Ratchets in 3/8 or larger) and nothing better than what Tekton or Capri is offering (often for less money).

Still other Icon stuff is frankly still not even good. Their impact swivel sockets and adapters are junk. The offset DBEs are very unimpressive in use and feel sloppy compared to much-better Taiwanese Williams. Basically if you need a tool with a parkerized finish, buy it somewhere else than HF.

IMHO the best product HF carries these days are the Icon and US General Gen 3 boxes. They are EXCELLENT and very competitively priced. I see a lot of these now in our build areas at Cummins-- only the old heads have the Snappy boxes, and that's in spite of a massive Cummins discount Snapon gives our young techs. It's still miles more expensive than HF's USG boxes and the USG boxes just work and hold up well in professional use.

 

[dscheidt]

HF is probably the closes to the old Sears, but in reality there no new Craftsman. The Craftsman experience you had-- especially with buying and warrantying individuals on the spot in a brick-and-mortar store-- that experience no longer exists.

HF wants you to bring in a whole set and buy a whole new set. Yes, if you do some digging you can buy individuals. But just try returning a single socket to HF and see how it goes.

So, given that B&M is mostly dead, and that HF's main claim to the Craftsman title is being B&M, I'd say that HF isn't the new craftsman. And that nobody can be as I define the craftsman thing above (warrantying individual parts no questions asked in B&M walk-in).

I've warrantied a fair amount of stuff at HF. it's mostly show them the broken one, they tell me to go get the set it's part of. they take it out, give it me, I leave. The incomplete set gets a trivial markdown, and gets sold at the next parking lot sale for a real discount. this is how it's supposed to work, according to one the corporate staff who called me a couple years ago. A store refused to replace a pair of pliers they no longer sold, and were pissy about me pointing out what 'lifetime warranty' is supposed to mean. So I wrote a letter and mailed it off to Eric Schmid, and whoever reads his mail called me. They confirmed they should have gotten whatever the current equivalent was, and sent me one. I did have one clerk tell me I needed to bring the whole set, but his manager told him he was wrong.

 

[n8n]

The one closest to me is kinda in a rough neighborhood. Looks like they employ locals which is good. The new one they put in a Walmart Strip mall where I used to live is immaculate and has employees who are out going and knowledgable.

That was kinda my point. I think technically there was competition, but I never knew about it. My friend had SK tools. His Dad probably bought them in some trade store for HVAC techs etc. Those kinds of places were open 8-4 M-F. In my experience, there wasn't serious competition for Craftsman among non-professionals.

I guess several of you have said it, or elluded to it, the internet has changed the way we shop. At this point, the only retail establishments I frequent are groceries and home centers. I buy everything else I need online. So while Icon or Pittsburgh may fill the specific niches for cheap decent tools, the tool market is different now.

PS you were right about grocery store tools. I bought a metric socket set from a grocery and they were as bad as you thought.

You had to mention SK. My grandpa gave me his 3/8" drive SK set (actually Sherman-Klove) and my dad had a Kraeuter set which I believe is SK made but was sold through some parts store chain back in the day - I assume he still does have it - which I used when I still lived with my parents. So, naturally, when Craftsman started selling made in China lobster claw wrenches I went big on SK, bought a 1/2" drive set, the Torx "master set", a set of SuperKrome combo wrenches, and a few other items. Of course we know where SK tools are mostly made now :/

 

[M635_Guy]

HF wants you to bring in a whole set and buy a whole new set. Yes, if you do some digging you can buy individuals. But just try returning a single socket to HF and see how it goes.

This is not true. It's a training error. The policy only requires you to bring the tool needing replacement. This has been confirmed by numerous employees over at the Reddit HF sub. If you ever hear different, ask for a manager. If the manager takes this position (unlikely), call the 800 customer service number on the spot.

I get the feeling some employees don't like the paperwork needed to take the set affected by the replacement out of stock, mark the short set down, etc. But that should never be your problem.

Other Icon stuff is merely good (Ratchets in 3/8 or larger) and nothing better than what Tekton or Capri is offering (often for less money).

I find the Tekton ratchets a bit light-duty. They feel fine, but not confidence-inspiring due to the very small gear head and fine teeth. But they work great. I've never used a Capri ratchet, but my understanding is they're extremely similar to the Matco 88 and maybe also the SK LP90 series. I have both of those, and generally reach for my SO Dual-80 and Icon ratchets first, but that's of course a subjective/preferential thing, and they're not far behind at all.

Still other Icon stuff is frankly still not even good. Their impact swivel sockets and adapters are junk. The offset DBEs are very unimpressive in use and feel sloppy compared to much-better Taiwanese Williams. Basically if you need a tool with a parkerized finish, buy it somewhere else than HF.

The swivel socket thing is pretty bad. Given how good the old Pittsburgh Pro impact stuff was, it's surprising.

 

[M635_Guy]

Yeah my cost per use on snap on is insanely high and most people couldn't justify it. I bought it because I wanted to start getting nicer stuff. Not because I need it.

Yeah - all the Snap On stuff I have is basically a gift to myself because I'm old and my retirement is pretty much fully-funded. The one exception is my Snap On 3/8" flex-head torque wrench because spark plugs in my old BMW (A) scared me in terms of what happens if I screw something up and (B) has a motor that is canted at a bit of an odd angle and the consumer torque wrenches I saw didn't flex and would be pretty awkward to use. I bought it off Craigslist at least 20 years ago and it looked new at the time. It is still dead-accurate.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

It is...to an extent. I can't think of another example where it can put you in a position to spend a massive percentage of your first-year income to get the basics to do the job and put you in potentially crippling debt long term.

(well, a college degree could be considered to meet that description...)


I get it, but I feel like some people draw very thick lines between what I'll call prosumer tools (Icon) and professional tools (Snap On) that are pretty arbitrary. I know this community has gone around this topic many times, so I try not to belabor it. But for a wide range of what I'll call "core" tools, a pro could do just as well and put the significant savings to better use. That's triply-true of the box. (IMHO)


That's the kind of math that scares me (financially). I had a much-longer answer I just deleted, but I guess I'd just say that for those core tools and especially boxes the math doesn't hold up as well as it used to given the quality and availability of what's out there. 25 years ago it was a very different world.

Counterpoint, at least spending 3k or whatever lets you make money and possibly, maybe, actually end up with a well paying career. Where as someone buying a 3k couch, with interest on payments for multiple years, while making ~32k/year is entirely dubious with basically no upside. Blowing that 3k on a tool truck has some sort of potential value, and in 5 years if they burn out it'll probably be worth more than that couch. I'd rather spend 3k on Amazon. Of course I'd agree with you entirely, spend a lot on cheaper stuff and a lot of it starting out. Cast a wide net, get a large amount of options and capability, replace as needed.

But if we're talking ROI, straight up, as someone who is a mechanic and makes good money - don't be a mechanic. 50th percentile outcome versus 50th percentile costs related to the job *****, makes no sense. Oh wow, there's a auto technician shortage, I wonder why that might be?

Some people do try and gate keep, in the same way you "need" to have a pickup truck to do blue collar work even if you never put anything from work in the bed. But in my experience those people are way over-represented online. Same as the people decrying the lack of "basic work trucks" who simultaneously want a 20k price point new and only buy used. Some of that is just rage bait for clicks on social media talking about only Matco or whoevers tools let you be a real mechanic. Lots of loud voices from a minority of people. The "HF needs a tool truck everything else is a scam" mechanics are just as annoying online as the "Snap on or you're a lube tech" mechanics.


The per use basis math only works if you can actually afford something. It's never a justification for buying something one cannot legitimately afford. I take discretionary income, add it to the bit I have earmarked for tools, and the discretionary bit pays for the difference between the bare minimum and what I want. Of course that's a balance. I wouldn't buy anything on the market but Snap on electric ratchets in 3/8, but it 1/4 Milwaukee is close enough so I save 50% or more.

 

[dchawk81]

Yeah - all the Snap On stuff I have is basically a gift to myself because I'm old and my retirement is pretty much fully-funded. The one exception is my Snap On 3/8" flex-head torque wrench because spark plugs in my old BMW (A) scared me in terms of what happens if I screw something up and (B) has a motor that is canted at a bit of an odd angle and the consumer torque wrenches I saw didn't flex and would be pretty awkward to use. I bought it off Craigslist at least 20 years ago and it looked new at the time. It is still dead-accurate.

Yeah there's no way I'm telling a 19 year old mechanic at $20/hr or whatever they make these days that they need to dive into the poorhouse head first just to look like a professional.

A car doesn't feel anything. It won't know what tool you're wrenching on it with.

 

[Skellyii]

I was in HF recently and I noticed a guy, probably late 20s, early thirty's with a much younger guy, maybe late teens, possibly early 20s. The older guy was pointing out what to buy and what not to buy and his reasoning behind those opinions.

Reminded me when I was in my late teens and enamored with the tool truck and my older co-workers explained to me what to get and what to stay away from, and why.

In later years when I went college and was taught ROI, even though I already had a lot of respect for those older co-workers, I appreciated them even more.

 

[M635_Guy]

Counterpoint, at least spending 3k or whatever lets you make money and possibly, maybe, actually end up with a well paying career. Where as someone buying a 3k couch, with interest on payments for multiple years, while making ~32k/year is entirely dubious with basically no upside. Blowing that 3k on a tool truck has some sort of potential value, and in 5 years if they burn out it'll probably be worth more than that couch. I'd rather spend 3k on Amazon. Of course I'd agree with you entirely, spend a lot on cheaper stuff and a lot of it starting out. Cast a wide net, get a large amount of options and capability, replace as needed.

But if we're talking ROI, straight up, as someone who is a mechanic and makes good money - don't be a mechanic. 50th percentile outcome versus 50th percentile costs related to the job *****, makes no sense. Oh wow, there's a auto technician shortage, I wonder why that might be?

Some people do try and gate keep, in the same way you "need" to have a pickup truck to do blue collar work even if you never put anything from work in the bed. But in my experience those people are way over-represented online. Same as the people decrying the lack of "basic work trucks" who simultaneously want a 20k price point new and only buy used. Some of that is just rage bait for clicks on social media talking about only Matco or whoevers tools let you be a real mechanic. Lots of loud voices from a minority of people. The "HF needs a tool truck everything else is a scam" mechanics are just as annoying online as the "Snap on or you're a lube tech" mechanics.


The per use basis math only works if you can actually afford something. It's never a justification for buying something one cannot legitimately afford. I take discretionary income, add it to the bit I have earmarked for tools, and the discretionary bit pays for the difference between the bare minimum and what I want. Of course that's a balance. I wouldn't buy anything on the market but Snap on electric ratchets in 3/8, but it 1/4 Milwaukee is close enough so I save 50% or more.

It's entirely safe/fair to say I'm over-indexed on people putting any money they can in a retirement account (even $50 a month) as young as possible. I turned 56 last week, and as I stare at retirement and look at the data that says a massive percentage of people have no retirement savings, it kinda breaks my heart to see techs load up on debt early when they could do the work just fine with "lesser" tools and dedicate a chunk of the difference to an IRA. After 30 or 40 years, it's a godsend.

 

[mikey03]

my Snap On 3/8" flex-head torque wrench because spark plugs in my old BMW (A) scared me in terms of what happens if I screw something up and (B) has a motor that is canted at a bit of an odd angle and the consumer torque wrenches I saw didn't flex and would be pretty awkward to use.

don’t mean to sidetrack but I always had to use 3/8 to 1/4 adapters and a 1/4 torque wrench with my spark plug sockets since the torque ratings are less than the 3/8 torque wrenches I’ve used

so wondering if your snap on torque wrench goes lower or if your plugs are torqued higher than the cars I worked on

 

[Aaron_W]

Keep in mind back in those days you didn't need a lot of tools to work on the family hauler. And the Sears catalog goes back to 1892.

Sears was so successful because there really wasn't any competition.

Basic tool sets were also included with cars or were at least available to buy from the dealer.

Model T came with a tool roll, pliers, screw driver, adjustable wrench, spark plug wrench, tire tools, tire pump and a patch kit.

I'm not sure when this practice ended. I have a factory tool kit for my 1969 Toyota Landcruiser. None of the cars I've owned from the 80s onward came with any tools beyond a crummy jack and a cheap tire iron.

 

[FigN⋅m]

I find the Tekton ratchets a bit light-duty. They feel fine, but not confidence-inspiring due to the very small gear head and fine teeth. But they work great.

Trying not to derail the thread, and these tested are always anecdotal, but this Tekton held up freakishly great!

I gave me the confidence to keep it in the off-road bag, because I've decided that's not were I want cheapo tools to fail.

 

[XJSuperman]

...Still other Icon stuff is frankly still not even good. Their impact swivel sockets and adapters are junk...

I'd like to hear more on why you believe this. I've got the Icon 1/2" swivel socket sets and don't have any issues other than they are a little shallow sometimes. They aren't SnapOn but I don't expect them to be. I have a lot of time with SO comparables, but less time spent with the Icons I bought for home use.

 

[zendriver]

Basic tool sets were also included with cars or were at least available to buy from the dealer.

Model T came with a tool roll, pliers, screw driver, adjustable wrench, spark plug wrench, tire tools, tire pump and a patch kit.

I'm not sure when this practice ended. I have a factory tool kit for my 1969 Toyota Landcruiser. None of the cars I've owned from the 80s onward came with any tools beyond a crummy jack and a cheap tire iron.

When cars became more reliable? The model T (others too ) wasn't and there not a lot of auto services centers in those days.

Early cars might be lucky to go 50 miles without a tire blowout.

 

[Steve_P]

I find the Tekton ratchets a bit light-duty. They feel fine, but not confidence-inspiring due to the very small gear head and fine teeth. But they work great. I've never used a Capri ratchet, but my understanding is they're extremely similar to the Matco 88 and maybe also the SK LP90 series. I have both of those, and generally reach for my SO Dual-80 and Icon ratchets first, but that's of course a subjective/preferential thing, and they're not far behind at all.

I have Tekton 90T, Capri 90T, GW 90T, Matco 88T, and SO 72T (in 1/4 drive). And did have one SK LP90 that I returned. And I've disassembled and measured all of them less the SO.

Excluding SO, the mechanisms of all the other brands I mentioned are essentially identical. Capri and Tekton actually have the most similar designs as they both have a boss on the back of the gear to locate it in the ratchet head.

I prefer GW over Tekton because of selection, thinner head, easier to move directional switch.... But I do still use the Tektons that I bought prior.

 

[Steve_P]

I'd like to hear more on why you believe this. I've got the Icon 1/2" swivel socket sets and don't have any issues other than they are a little shallow sometimes. They aren't SnapOn but I don't expect them to be. I have a lot of time with SO comparables, but less time spent with the Icons I bought for home use.

TTC? did a test on the swivel impact sockets and Icon was not good. Funny you mentioned this because I was in HF last week or so and they had an Icon swivel set missing a 15mm? that was discounted because of pulling that socket out for warranty. Sure, you can break any swivel socket with the guns today, but the Icon aren't too good in comparison to the competition.

 

[Jtels85]

Craftsman was Craftsman until the bitter end. I even consider the China made Craftsman tools of the 2010’s sold at Sears to be genuine Craftsman.

What I don’t consider to be Craftsman is the **** Stanley Black & Decker is churning out. To me, it’s just another low-rent brand in a vast sea of imported tool brands. They can’t even match Husky’s quality, and that’s sad.

Craftsman was always a good enough, entry level DIY brand. ICON is marketed towards the serious DIY’er and professional mechanic. Comparing ICON to Craftsman, whether it be Sears Craftsman or SBD Craftsman, is like comparing apples to oranges.

 

[Steve_P]

I think it's less peer pressure, and more new techs being "NEW SHINY MUST SPEND ALL MONEY", which generally matches their financial choices in other areas. You're talking 18-25? Not known generally for excellent money management as a demographic.

To me the tool truck account is always a symptom, not a cause. Same people have thousands in personal loans, late bills, cars they bought for 2/3 of their gross yearly income, rent to own couches, etc. Plenty of people have little/no debt for anything let alone tools. Another big factor I see is just laziness, they refuse to spend 90 minutes on a HF trip so they spend 10x or more on the tool truck. Although the inverse of that is the guy with little/no tools because he's lazy and cheap - his output ***** because he doesn't have the tools he needs to be efficient.

Yep, a symptom. I think you'll agree, but the tool truck biz today is mostly all about the interest free payments on the typical purchases. Yes, there are some unique things that you should buy off your dealer if you use tools to make a living. But typically, you can buy the same thing online that Matco sells for half the price, and will never need to warranty, yet people still buy it off the truck because they can pay $20, whatever, a week. The American economy exists on credit and that's just the way it is. We can say that's terrible; you need to have the $ to pay for your ****, but that's irrelevant; the reality is what matters and payments are the norm for most Americans.

Why does SO sell new toolboxes daily when you can buy them, in like new condition, on FB for 30-40% the list price? Weekly payments. Almost no one has $2K+ in cash to drop on a purchase. But I'd bet I can get on FB and find at least ten like new SO chests for 40% list price within 30 miles of me. And I'm "only" in a ~1.2M metro area which is somehow defined as a 90 mile radius.

I have a friend that's been trying to sell a like new "real" John Deere riding mower for years on FB. Nothing wrong with it. He paid ~$7K for it like 20 years ago. 140? hours on the meter. No one wants it for $3400 because you can buy a new green "fake" JD at HD for less $ and put it on your CC or HD financing.

 

[M635_Guy]

don’t mean to sidetrack but I always had to use 3/8 to 1/4 adapters and a 1/4 torque wrench with my spark plug sockets since the torque ratings are less than the 3/8 torque wrenches I’ve used

so wondering if your snap on torque wrench goes lower or if your plugs are torqued higher than the cars I worked on

It's the SO QD2FR75E, which is 5-75 ft. lb range. The torque spec on my old BMW is 30nm or ~22 ft.-lb. I approach that number with caution since there's some debate that it's actually 23nm/~17 ft.lb. My understanding is that's for use with "black" plugs with antisieze, which isn't required with modern coated plugs.

I'm not entirely sanguine about spark plugs...

Trying not to derail the thread, and these tested are always anecdotal, but this Tekton held up freakishly great!

I gave me the confidence to keep it in the off-road bag, because I've decided that's not were I want cheapo tools to fail.

Apologies - I shouldn't have made it sound like that. All of these tools we're talking about are vastly sturdier than anything we'll throw at them (or I will anyway). It's a "feel" thing, not any actual worry they'll fail.

 

[dchawk81]

Yep, a symptom. I think you'll agree, but the tool truck biz today is mostly all about the interest free payments on the typical purchases. Yes, there are some unique things that you should buy off your dealer if you use tools to make a living. But typically, you can buy the same thing online that Matco sells for half the price, and will never need to warranty, yet people still buy it off the truck because they can pay $20, whatever, a week. The American economy exists on credit and that's just the way it is. We can say that's terrible; you need to have the $ to pay for your ****, but that's irrelevant; the reality is what matters and payments are the norm for most Americans.

Why does SO sell new toolboxes daily when you can buy them, in like new condition, on FB for 30-40% the list price? Weekly payments. Almost no one has $2K+ in cash to drop on a purchase. But I'd bet I can get on FB and find at least ten like new SO chests for 40% list price within 30 miles of me. And I'm "only" in a ~1.2M metro area which is somehow defined as a 90 mile radius.

I have a friend that's been trying to sell a like new "real" John Deere riding mower for years on FB. Nothing wrong with it. He paid ~$7K for it like 20 years ago. 140? hours on the meter. No one wants it for $3400 because you can buy a new green "fake" JD at HD for less $ and put it on your CC or HD financing.

Not everyone is broke. If it's worth 3400 he'd get it sold for that.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

It's entirely safe/fair to say I'm over-indexed on people putting any money they can in a retirement account (even $50 a month) as young as possible. I turned 56 last week, and as I stare at retirement and look at the data that says a massive percentage of people have no retirement savings, it kinda breaks my heart to see techs load up on debt early when they could do the work just fine with "lesser" tools and dedicate a chunk of the difference to an IRA. After 30 or 40 years, it's a godsend.

Your example, which I agree with on principle, ignores the existence of motorcycles on facebook marketplace. The IRA money is spent on a 3k motorcycle in the spring that is sold for $1500 in the fall as riding season is over and prices collapse, plus the loss of insuring it and riding gear. "But I save money on gas". That's just what "young people" do, they buy R6s on Marketplace and lane-split between cars at 100mph on a permit. I blew a bunch of money at that age, luckily on tools. So I outcompeted competition and pushed others out, making more money to get where I am today. Late 20s IMO is about as realistic a time for most people to be able to start IRAs seriously between personality and minimum income requirements.


My IRA(s) are funded, brokerage account getting started, only debt is the mortgage which I can pay off if I wanted. Life is good, because I'm happy living a basic life and I value not struggling. People argue with me when I tell them to stop financing their life away for 6/12/18 months and "get your ******* life together". They'd rather risk repos on the fancy car they can't afford, overdraft their account a few times a month, vacations out of state when the checking account is at $0.00 when they return, etc. Same BS, different day. I also make good money which helps. The mentality of poverty, the boom and bust cycle, is tough to break. That's probably another 20 page thread.

Yep, a symptom. I think you'll agree, but the tool truck biz today is mostly all about the interest free payments on the typical purchases. Yes, there are some unique things that you should buy off your dealer if you use tools to make a living. But typically, you can buy the same thing online that Matco sells for half the price, and will never need to warranty, yet people still buy it off the truck because they can pay $20, whatever, a week. The American economy exists on credit and that's just the way it is. We can say that's terrible; you need to have the $ to pay for your ****, but that's irrelevant; the reality is what matters and payments are the norm for most Americans.

Why does SO sell new toolboxes daily when you can buy them, in like new condition, on FB for 30-40% the list price? Weekly payments. Almost no one has $2K+ in cash to drop on a purchase. But I'd bet I can get on FB and find at least ten like new SO chests for 40% list price within 30 miles of me. And I'm "only" in a ~1.2M metro area which is somehow defined as a 90 mile radius.

I have a friend that's been trying to sell a like new "real" John Deere riding mower for years on FB. Nothing wrong with it. He paid ~$7K for it like 20 years ago. 140? hours on the meter. No one wants it for $3400 because you can buy a new green "fake" JD at HD for less $ and put it on your CC or HD financing.

Matco is always the best punching bag for rebranding, it's wild how much Astro/OTC/Lisle is on those trucks. And the "Service" of which payments and financing are both a part of, IS a product the tool trucks sell. The warranty service, the payment structure, delivery of tools in a pinch, used tools/trades - all part of the equation over and above a quality tool.

One also hits into the limit on a used box, of just buying a new one. So even if I have the cash outright to by the box, why would I spend more than 50% of MSRP on something used, when new is 25% off (75% MSRP) all the time? Snap On, Matco, all of them will discount new pretty significantly and usually give a rebate of some sort for using financing with no early payoff penalty.

 

[KnurledNut]

Bet Sears didn't have a bunch of these mofuggas

The Craftsman Professional line had a long nose slip joint very similar.

 

[LB-1911]

The Craftsman Professional line had a long nose slip joint very similar.

Craftsman Professional 8 in Slip Joint Long Nose Pliers - Part # 45752​

 

[KnurledNut]

Craftsman Professional 8 in Slip Joint Long Nose Pliers - Part # 45752​

SK too...

 

[M635_Guy]

Craftsman Professional 8 in Slip Joint Long Nose Pliers - Part # 4575​

Can you post a pic? I found these on eBay, but doesn't seem quite the same as the SO/Icon function

Vintage Craftsman 45755 Heat Treated Needle Nose PliersComfort Grips Made in USA | eBay

Vintage Craftsman 45755 Heat Treated Needle Nose PliersComfort Grips Made in USA

www.ebay.com

SK too...

Honestly, those don't look like the same thing either. What makes the Talon design useful is how parallel the jaws stay.

 

[Basskiller]

Supposedly, during that time Craftsman was a DIY homeowner thing. What was the competition? I remember the Western Auto stuff, but who else was competing for that market at that time?


Thanks!

Montgomery Ward was selling Powr-Kraft and a couple other brands. Memory on that is pretty faded though.

 

[LB-1911]

@M635, You dropped the two.

Craftsman Professional 8 in Slip Joint Long Nose Pliers - Part # 45752​

 

[KnurledNut]

Hard to find a good picture of those.
@radrush posted this one years ago:
https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/attachments/20150915_092706-jpg.478188/
IIRC, @Fedwrench has posted pics of them more recently.

 

[Sbusmech]

I was referring to using tools professionally, which is the role of both snap on and icon

Unfortunately, we all know that, even though your current set up is adequate, you would receive more than your fair share of “stink eye” using that set up in a professional environment


Just the way it is

I don't think that's entirely true. I have Snap On and Icon tools. Everywhere I've been there's a pecking order of such. How good is the technician. I usually out troubleshoot and outwork most where I've been and have the least amount of comebacks. So nobody is walking up to me and tool shaming me. They know every month when the recovery ratings are posted who's the top dogs.

 

[zendriver]

I don't think that's entirely true. I have Snap On and Icon tools. Everywhere I've been there's a pecking order of such. How good is the technician. I usually out troubleshoot and outwork most where I've been and have the least amount of comebacks. So nobody is walking up to me and tool shaming me. They know every month when the recovery ratings are posted who's the top dogs.

That’s good to hear

I believe my grandson will be top notch, and hopefully steer away from overpaying for tools. Focusing more on his student loan debt.

 

[Sbusmech]

That’s good to hear

I believe my grandson will be top notch, and hopefully steer away from overpaying for tools. Focusing more on his student loan debt.

They make some great tools and boxes. I understand they have a limited selection of tools and specialty tools, but for the basics of SAE/metric 1/4" 3/8" 1/2" sockets and wrenches, pliers, screwdrivers, tool storage etc. they will be fine.

 

[PowrKraftsman]

Montgomery Ward was selling Powr-Kraft and a couple other brands. Memory on that is pretty faded though.

Yep. Our family used mostly Craftsman but also some Powr-Kraft, hence my forum name.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

I don't think that's entirely true. I have Snap On and Icon tools. Everywhere I've been there's a pecking order of such. How good is the technician. I usually out troubleshoot and outwork most where I've been and have the least amount of comebacks. So nobody is walking up to me and tool shaming me. They know every month when the recovery ratings are posted who's the top dogs.

People think there's some crazy tool judgement based on brands. If you don't have tools, have low quality work, or constant problems with jobs, people will be noticing that.

Everybody is way too busy working to be worried about if you like Wright wrenches or Proto. Social media ribbing between groups and purposeful rage bait for engagement way overstate how much somebody cares.

Yes, you can usually make some very general inferences from tools. Very general. But if you're making a living with Husky and not having issues, nobody cares.

 

[Aaron_W]

People think there's some crazy tool judgement based on brands. If you don't have tools, have low quality work, or constant problems with jobs, people will be noticing that.

Everybody is way too busy working to be worried about if you like Wright wrenches or Proto. Social media ribbing between groups and purposeful rage bait for engagement way overstate how much somebody cares.

Yes, you can usually make some very general inferences from tools. Very general. But if you're making a living with Husky and not having issues, nobody cares.

Kind of goes for the customer as well. Most customers would have no clue the difference between Snap On and Pittsburg.
A customer who was impressed / turned off by the mechanics preferred tool brand, probably does a lot of their own work which can be the worst kind of customer.

I do a lot of my own work, and I've never paid any attention to the tools in the mechanics cart. Don't care.
If they fix the car right the first time I'll be a repeat customer, if they goober it up, I'll be looking for a different shop the next time I need work done.

When cars became more reliable? The model T (others too ) wasn't and there not a lot of auto services centers in those days.

Early cars might be lucky to go 50 miles without a tire blowout.

Yeah, I understand why that went away, I just meant year wise I don't know when it stopped. In the 60s it was still a thing, but by the 80s not so much.

 

[nadogail]

My only complaint about HF tools is you can't buy a single replacement solely anything sold in sets

 

[Sbusmech]

People think there's some crazy tool judgement based on brands. If you don't have tools, have low quality work, or constant problems with jobs, people will be noticing that.

Everybody is way too busy working to be worried about if you like Wright wrenches or Proto. Social media ribbing between groups and purposeful rage bait for engagement way overstate how much somebody cares.

Yes, you can usually make some very general inferences from tools. Very general. But if you're making a living with Husky and not having issues, nobody cares.

Agreed.

 

[zendriver]

Yeah, I understand why that went away, I just meant year wise I don't know when it stopped. In the 60s it was still a thing, but by the 80s not so much.

I was born in 1959 and my dad had a service station, and while certainly others can chime in I can’t recall a single American made car that ever had a factory tool kit in it :dunno

European cars? sure sometimes but a lot of them broke down a lot and many repair shops, including my dad’s never had metric tools

I don’t really recall seeing him in Japanese cars as well with a tool kit

 

[nadogail]

To the best of my knowledge, tools have not been included with new American cars made after WW1.