Will they ever learn?

[Firebrick43]

Came across this scene today in a new build house.

Contractor cross cutting laminate flooring.


No guard.

On the floor leaning over the saw.

Cross cutting without a miter gauge or sled

Cross cutting using the rip fence.

No safety glasses either.

And piles of **** around for pieces being to catch on.

Even if a sawstop or sawstop like device be mandated, if a person is willing to violate every single guard and work practice about a saw, why wouldn’t they just turn off the flesh detection.

 

[kjbenner]

It seems like the right tool for the job would be a laminate cutter, like this: https://www.lowes.com/pd/Brutus-13-...red-Wood-and-Vinyl-Flooring-Cutter/1002746748. Or you know, like the thing they have their power strip sitting on.

 

[Firebrick43]

I don’t know if the blade was dull or just a lazy employee?

Or it didn’t belong to the laminate guys but the other cutting siding or the drywall guys cutting the trimtex all of which is visible?

 

[snickers muncher]

I never use a guard either as it often gets in the way or can scratch what you're cutting---not having a riving knife is a no go for me though. The rest is just stupid and lazy. I'd kick them off my site if it was my call.

 

[whateg01]

Cross cutting is ok if the part between the fence and the blade is longer in the y direction than x. I rarely use a guard but I do use a riving knife. Laminate flooring isn't likely to close up and bind though so I wouldn't sweat that too much.

Leaning over the saw on the floor though, that is a bit much

 

[AldeanFan]

If that’s the most dangerous thing you’ve seen today you haven’t seen much lol.

I take safety seriously, but there are many who don’t and no they will never learn. In fact many will come up with reasons why safety equipment is dangerous. I’ve been told that gloves, safety glasses, respirators, seatbelts and welding helmets are all dangerous

 

[Rusted Nut]

Our safety policy for table saws, miter saws, etc… is min. 40” above standing surface.

 

[ecotec]

If that’s the most dangerous thing you’ve seen today you haven’t seen much lol.

I take safety seriously, but there are many who don’t and no they will never learn. In fact many will come up with reasons why safety equipment is dangerous. I’ve been told that gloves, safety glasses, respirators, seatbelts and welding helmets are all dangerous

I agree… society is at peak “I can do whatever I want”. You can’t even ask people to do things correctly or safely anymore. They just get defensive and flip out.

I have zero answers. That guy probably would not even change his methodology if he was hurt very badly.

Honestly, I have seen some insanely dangerous practices over my 30 years in the trades. I have seen way worse than that…

At this point I feel safer on the heavy industrial jobs because safety is much more important than production. One accident can impact a company’s ability to bid on future jobs.

 

[whateg01]

I agree… society is at peak “I can do whatever I want”. You can’t even ask people to do things correctly or safely anymore. They just get defensive and flip out.

I have zero answers. That guy probably would not even change his methodology if he was hurt very badly.

Is that really new? I bet 100 years ago somebody told an old timer that he shouldn't repair his buggy that way and he said I've been doing it this way all my life and haven't died yet.

 

[ecotec]

Is that really new? I bet 100 years ago somebody told an old timer that he shouldn't repair his buggy that way and he said I've been doing it this way all my life and haven't died yet.

Absolutely not. I would never even suggest such a thing.

It is lawyers and insurance companies that have gotten us to the point where most job sites are relatively safe.

 

[KnurledNut]

I would have no problem using that saw set up just the way it is. When you do something all day every day you know how the tool works and reacts and its limitations. I have years of experience on a jobsite table saw doing all kinds of crazy stuff. I definitely wouldn't put a greenhorn on that though.

 

[micromind]

Came across this scene today in a new build house.

Contractor cross cutting laminate flooring.


No guard.

On the floor leaning over the saw.

Cross cutting without a miter gauge or sled

Cross cutting using the rip fence.

No safety glasses either.

And piles of **** around for pieces being to catch on.

Even if a sawstop or sawstop like device be mandated, if a person is willing to violate every single guard and work practice about a saw, why wouldn’t they just turn off the flesh detection.

Other than the saw being on the floor, I have made thousands of crosscuts on tablesaws with no guard, no mitre gauge, no fence, no blade guard and just about every other safety violation you can think of. No issues at all.

Of course, the next cut might saw my face off.....but almost certainly not.

In my own personal experience, over many years in the construction trades, safety is not found in rigid enforcement of written regulations, it is a combination of common sense, training and experience.

No doubt I'll get ripped to shreds for stating my opinion.......oh well......

 

[AEAdam]

Is that really new? I bet 100 years ago somebody told an old timer that he shouldn't repair his buggy that way and he said I've been doing it this way all my life and haven't died yet.

I had Amish roofers redo my barn roof. They used gasoline powered air compressors to run their nailers, but otherwise there was basically no safety equipment. Just ladders and straw hats.

They had some sort of telehandler to deliver supplies. I asked them to at least wear safety glasses and they smiled and waved like I was speaking Spanish.

Nice guys. It was nice getting to know them and we’ve kept in touch. It was fun seeing their lunches. They all had igloo coolers with lunches made by someone who loved them. The younger ones had big mayonnaise sized jars of Concord grape juice, likely as home made as everything else they ate. Milk was also a popular lunch time drink.

I wanted to take pictures of their progress but that can be impolite because some Amish consider pictures to be graven images and therefore sinful or boastful.

I think worksite safety is new and really something only for very organized pros, unions etc. I’m not as careful as I should be on my construction site. I guess that makes me stupid.

 

[kbuhagiar]

In my own personal experience, over many years in the construction trades, safety is not found in rigid enforcement of written regulations, it is a combination of common sense, training and experience.

No sir, I completely agree.

The sweet spot is found right smack in the middle between zero regulation and overenforcement to the point of hindrance.

 

[finn]

Lots of Darwin Award candidates here.

 

[MichaelP]

Actually, based on the photo, the contractor has learned his lesson. He is not present because he left for the Emergency Room .
I don't know if it was a saw related accident, or he was injured by the client who saw results of his work.

 

[zendriver]

Wonder if he was the lowest bidder?

FWIW don't see a lot of Amish hobbling along on a peg-leg, or wearing an eye patch.

Should everything be done safely? Sure.

 

[Beerhippie]

Lots of Darwin Award candidates here.

Generally, these are the same folks who start throwing pups at a young age, so no chance of eliminating them from the gene pool.

 

[Firebrick43]

For context, I doubt either of them could legally buy alcohol.

Cross cutting is ok if the part between the fence and the blade is longer in the y direction than x.

It was squareish, 6x6. I winced as the off cut set there and jittered between the blade and fence expecting it to be shot back at the installer at warp speed.

I rarely use a guard but I do use a riving knife. Laminate flooring isn't likely to close up and bind though so I wouldn't sweat that too much.

I get not using a guard, most contractor saw guards are terrible. But all I could think about is the poor bastards chest falling on the blade when his 3’ long piece catches the piled up **** on the left side of the saw initiating a skew and resulting kick back causing his hand to be push out from underneath him. Maybe a guard would leave him with the nick name stubs instead of dead. If the saw was on a stand much would be mitigated.

 

[whateg01]

It was squareish, 6x6. I winced as the off cut set there and jittered between the blade and fence expecting it to be shot back at the installer at warp speed.

I should probably have clarified that the piece against the fence is the part I would have been guiding and pushing. I would not let a loose chunk remain there. That's definitely a bad scenario

 

[eejack]

I think worksite safety is new and really something only for very organized pros, unions etc. I’m not as careful as I should be on my construction site. I guess that makes me stupid.

Many trade unions began because of unsafe working conditions, so safety isn't really new.

OSHA is a result of a 1970 law - so even that is more than 50 years old.

You will always run into folks who either don't know better, or 'know better' than them there safety guys. Mix in a healthy amount of 'go faster' and machismo and you end up with table saws on the floor with no dust collection surrounded by slip and trip hazards.

Everyone could be a bit safer, doesn't make you stupid, just makes you not as safe. I absolutely have gotten better at those things the longer I have been around and better at explaining to the younger folks in my crew the hows and whys of safety. And I am less concerned with not seeming 'manly' than I am concerned about having all of my fingers and toes for the ride home.

 

[KnurledNut]

The biggest safety risk I see with this is not wearing safety eyewear. I've cut and laid a lot of laminate of all types and unless its LVP the shards of the top lamination can get in your eyes which is quite dangerous. After this happening a half dozen times to me, I quit cutting it without glasses.

 

[scooby074]

Not that Mr. Floor Saw would care, but there is a pretty unique style of saw in Europe for just such a job called a pull saw. Very limited availability in North America however

 

[JoeMcGov]

Am I gonna be in trouble if I admit now, 40 years later, that I used to use a 16d (penny) nail to wedge open the guard on my Skil 77 saw when I was framing a houses' cut roof walking the wall top plates?

 

[Beerhippie]

Am I gonna be in trouble if I admit now, 40 years later, that I used to use a 16d (penny) nail to wedge open the guard on my Skil 77 saw when I was framing a houses' cut roof walking the wall top plates?

"Oh, ****! It's OSHA! Unpin your guards!"

I was told that deck screws were less prone to vibrating loose, BTW. Certainly wouldn't know myself.

 

[Semi-hole mechanic]

I had Amish roofers redo my barn roof. They used gasoline powered air compressors to run their nailers, but otherwise there was basically no safety equipment. Just ladders and straw hats.

They had some sort of telehandler to deliver supplies. I asked them to at least wear safety glasses and they smiled and waved like I was speaking Spanish.

Nice guys. It was nice getting to know them and we’ve kept in touch. It was fun seeing their lunches. They all had igloo coolers with lunches made by someone who loved them. The younger ones had big mayonnaise sized jars of Concord grape juice, likely as home made as everything else they ate. Milk was also a popular lunch time drink.

I wanted to take pictures of their progress but that can be impolite because some Amish consider pictures to be graven images and therefore sinful or boastful.

I think worksite safety is new and really something only for very organized pros, unions etc. I’m not as careful as I should be on my construction site. I guess that makes me stupid.

You should have asked them if it was okay to take their pictures, some don’t care while some may object. My parents had a house built by Schrock Builders of Arthur, IL and most of their carpenters were Amish.
My ex-wife and I were also friendly with some of the local Amish in MO. They used gas powered air compressors for nailing but did most of their sawing with a chain saw when replacing our windows and putting in a sliding glass door for us. The Amish to the north of us were not allowed to use air tools and did all of their nailing by hand (fewer carpenters in that community).
Amish drink of choice in MO and here in IL is usually not milk or grape juice, but Mt. Dew.

 

[tarbellb]

19yr kid probably does this 50+ hrs a week since 14yrs old ....
probably got the same # hours doing this as most 50+ yr olds
Safe, no. But experience counts for a lot in this situation. Hopefully they pay the bills and up their skills

 

[Beerhippie]

You should have asked them if it was okay to take their pictures, some don’t care while some may object. My parents had a house built by Schrock Builders of Arthur, IL and most of their carpenters were Amish.
My ex-wife and I were also friendly with some of the local Amish in MO. They used gas powered air compressors for nailing but did most of their sawing with a chain saw when replacing our windows and putting in a sliding glass door for us. The Amish to the north of us were not allowed to use air tools and did all of their nailing by hand (fewer carpenters in that community).
Amish drink of choice in MO and here in IL is usually not milk or grape juice, but Mt. Dew.

It's gotta be a hat thing.

 

[Junkdrawer Dog]

FWIW don't see a lot of Amish hobbling along on a peg-leg, or wearing an eye patch.

...and they don't smell of alcohol while on the job site. Possible connection?

 

[zendriver]

...and they don't smell of alcohol while on the job site. Possible connection?

Do all of the English, drink while working construction?

The Amish are anything but tee-totalers, at least where I live. On the job,

 

[neophyte]

Not that Mr. Floor Saw would care, but there is a pretty unique style of saw in Europe for just such a job called a pull saw. Very limited availability in North America however

Festool refuses to sell their version in the USA.
The US distributor for Mafell used to sell the Erika version, but seems to have stopped doing so, and if I recall correctly, the Erika was only available in 220v, which would have required most contractors to screw with an electrical panel, and electrical accidents are way more likely to cause deaths to work site deaths than a “table saw” is.

 

[gizardlizard]

The Amish in our part of Wisconsin use Dewalt battery tools and charge them with their generator. Hell, they even use cell phones but keep them in the drivers car. They get driven to each job. They love their lemonade.

 

[rust in the eye]

I would have no problem using that saw set up just the way it is. When you do something all day every day you know how the tool works and reacts and its limitations. I have years of experience on a jobsite table saw doing all kinds of crazy stuff. I definitely wouldn't put a greenhorn on that though.

I understand what you are saying and for the most part agree but working on floor like that is just asking for it. My $.02

 

[Beerhippie]

I understand what you are saying and for the most part agree but working on floor like that is just asking for it. My $.02

Not mention what it's doing to the guy's back....

 

[Firebrick43]

Not mention what it's doing to the guy's back....

And knees. The guys were wasting a good 30-45 sec per cut just to get down/get up to the saw. And most of the new saw stands fold quickly and have wheels to get it to the truck as well.

Watching the India/Pakistan manufacturing videos it always amazes me how much wasted motion there is for lack of carts and tables between operations. I know life it cheap but even at 10 bucks a day the tables would pay themselves back in labor savings cost.. I guess "its the way its always been done" is really hard to break.

 

[Hakeem]

I would have no problem using that saw set up just the way it is. When you do something all day every day you know how the tool works and reacts and its limitations. I have years of experience on a jobsite table saw doing all kinds of crazy stuff. I definitely wouldn't put a greenhorn on that though.

100%

Pretty much all the laminate flooring I’ve laid or seen laid is with a similar setup, but with a mitre saw added for cross cuts. No need to have it on a stand when you’re working on the floor anyways.

The mess is what would bother me the most

I get not using a guard, most contractor saw guards are terrible. But all I could think about is the poor bastards chest falling on the blade when his 3’ long piece catches the piled up **** on the left side of the saw initiating a skew and resulting kick back causing his hand to be push out from underneath him. Maybe a guard would leave him with the nick name stubs instead of dead. If the saw was on a stand much would be mitigated.

I think you’re being unrealistic. Short of a trip and fall, nobody’s chest is landing on a table saw blade.

They shouldn’t be cross-cutting laminate on the table saw, I completely agree. But running the saw on the floor without a guard is not an issue. Act appropriately when the exposed blade is spinning and everything will be fine.

 

[Firebrick43]

I think you’re being unrealistic. Short of a trip and fall, nobody’s chest is landing on a table saw blade.

They shouldn’t be cross-cutting laminate on the table saw, I completely agree. But running the saw on the floor without a guard is not an issue. Act appropriately when the exposed blade is spinning and everything will be fine.

As I posted in post 1, they were leaning over the saw.

Their upper body weight was being supported by the laminate on the table as they were pushing it through, upper legs vertical , not like a Z with their butts on their heels. A kick back would send their hands to their waist and forward they would go.

 

[Hakeem]

As I posted in post 1, they were leaning over the saw.

Their upper body weight was being supported by the laminate on the table as they were pushing it through, upper legs vertical , not like a Z with their butts on their heels. A kick back would send their hands to their waist and forward they would go.

LOL ok that’s slightly different

I assumed by the presence of the pad that they were kneeling in front of the saw. Cutting on a table saw in the manner you’ve described is insane … simple kickback, snag, or slip of the workpiece and the saw will be painting the walls red with their blood

Try to grab a photo if you see them again

 

[Firebrick43]

LOL ok that’s slightly different

I assumed by the presence of the pad that they were kneeling in front of the saw. Cutting on a table saw in the manner you’ve described is insane … simple kickback, snag, or slip of the workpiece and the saw will be painting the walls red with their blood

Try to grab a photo if you see them again

I highly doubt i will ever be there again.

I was inspecting the houses furnace and starting it up after being hooked to propane for the first time, which is beside me from where I took the picture. Some of these new furnaces take 5 min or more to boot up at the wall controller now and therefore it can take 30 min or more to clear purge faults before all the air is out because of resets. They had went to lunch when I took the picture.

 

[egdede]

When I saw the picture I thought the suggestion would be to use one of these:

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Brutus-13-in-Wide-Laminate-Engineered-Wood-and-Vinyl-Flooring-Cutter/1002746748