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Sufficient Exterior Lighting on a Detached Garage

Diavolicchio

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Union, Maine (Midcoast) USA
Next Spring/Summer, I'll be breaking ground for the first of two structures to be built on some property I have here in Maine. The land is basically the beginning of a young fruit orchard and is little more at this point than a large open hayfield with all tall trees limited to the perimeter of the property. The initial structure to be built will be a guest apartment above a heated garage near the back corner of the property. The footprint will measure 20' x 34'. No other buildings (or light sources) currently exist on the land aside from a small storage shed. The building site is at the end of a 550 foot driveway, off of a quiet, two-lane country road. When it's nighttime, there will be no sources of light aside from what I install.

Regarding outside lighting, my current thoughts are to go with six wall sconces plus an additional overhead light above the garage door. Two of the six sconces would be flanking the garage door itself, two would be next to each of the doors on the entry side (East), and the remaining two would be flanking the two garage windows on the West side of the building opposite the entry. The North-facing wall beneath the bedroom window wouldn't have any exterior lighting.

Here's a rendering of the structure to give you a better sense of things:


Garage_Apt_1.jpg


Garage_Apt_6.jpg
Garage_Apt_5.jpg



The six wall sconces would each have one 42 watt CFL:


Outside%20Sconces%203.jpg




Each of these sconces would give off the equivalent light of a 175 watt incandescent. The wall pack fixture above the garage door, which will have two 42 watt CFLs, would give off the equivalent light of a 350 watt incandescent:

wallpack.jpg



The building would therefore have outside lighting equivalent to 1 - 350 watt and 6 - 175 watt incandescents, but would require just 336 watts because they'd all be CFLs.
Is this amount of exterior lighting overkill for a structure this small? I'm hoping it won't because it'll be the only outside lighting on all 17 acres of land until the main house is built.

There IS a street light near the entrance to the driveway but I won't be lighting the long driveway initially. I plan to simply rely on the lights on my vehicle when I drive in at night. My primary goal in the short term is to make sure that I've got sufficient lighting outside the structure without going overboard.

I 'm leaning toward going with 180-degree motion sensors on the East and West sides of the structure to activate the six wall sconces so that anyone outside the building would have lights that come on automatically when there's activity within 50 feet of the building. This would be especially helpful when walking from the apartment to the garage at night, which would require you to go outdoors. The motion sensors would also be used to help keep the deer away. The overhead wall pack light would not be connected to the motion sensors and would be controlled separately by a remote in my vehicle.


There's one other thing to factor in. Although these seven exterior lights will likely be off when no one's around, there will still be electric candles in all 14 of the windows which will be on a timer and always lit at night, 365 days/year. Therefore, even with all other interior and exterior lights off, these candles would be on and the structure should at least be visible at night as you approach it. The motion sensors would then trigger the outside lights once someone is close.

I'd like to hear people's thoughts about the workability of this set-up. I'm too close to it to have any objectivity. I'm also not locked into my current plans.

Any suggestions or feedback appreciated.


John
 
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night4creeper

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being this place is out in the country; if it were me i would put some type of flood light under the eave at the peak on all 4 sides of the house. You will appreciate them if some thing goes bump in the night, party cleanup runs late, or you just happen to be working one something out there after dusk. All could be wired to a single switch or on there own.
I would also paint the housings the same color as the eaves so they don't stand out too much.
 

Striker

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Since you're out in the country I would heavily consider "dark sky" rated light fixtures. Not only would you be a thoughtful person to reduce light pollution, but the glare won't hurt your eyes when you approach the building.

If this were my property I'd look at the following:

Garage Door Wall (South facing)
1. Barn style light above garage door.
2. Dark sky rated sconces on each side of the garage door.

Side Door Wall (East)
(Option A) Small barn style light above each door.
(Option B) Dark sky rated sconce next to each door.
(Option C) 42w CFL wall pack with full cutoff hood located a few feet below second story window.

North and West Walls
1. 42w CFL wall pack with full cutoff hood located at same height as Option C on the East wall. (I would install this regardless if I went with Option C).


I'd put all the lights on one single dusk to dawn sensor or an electronic timer. I'd consider PAR38 motion lights (independent of the timer or photocell) in the eaves if you want to "light up" the surrounding area if anyone approaches.

I would also consider additional lighting for the driveway (possibly low voltage lights along the side of the driveway to light it up). I'm not a big fan of lighting up everything like a stadium, especially if you're in the country.

Can you shed some light (pun intended :)) on the candles? I don't understand the significance of it. Are you trying to make the structure stand out at night?
 
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Diavolicchio

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Striker:

Awesome reply. I really appreciate you going out of your way to think through this and to offer some substantive feedback.

What are "dark sky" rated light fixtures, by the way?

Let me take some time to digest what you've suggested and I'll reply in a subsequent post. By the way, the candles are more of an aesthetic thing. I see them a lot in houses here in Maine. There's a company called Sillites that makes electric "candles" with a plug on the bottom that actual rest directly in the receptor. I got a sample of one and was really impressed. They're well-made. Not much light to speak of (about 40 lumens each), but I just think they make a place feel a bit more warm and lived in:


candle3.jpg


candle1.jpg


candle5.jpg


candle4.jpg




John
 
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Striker

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Awesome reply. I really appreciate you going out of your way to think through this and to offer some substantive feedback.

No problem! I don't normally reply to GJ threads due to time, so it is really something when I do reply! :)


What are "dark sky" rated light fixtures, by the way?

Dark sky complaint fixtures are lights designed to reduce or eliminate light pollution. They normally have a cut off or reflector that directs all light towards the ground. Please see the following:

http://www.darksky.org

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark-sky_movement

It is a idea that was started several years back that is finally starting to catch on with the public.


Let me take some time to digest what you've suggested and I'll reply in a subsequent post. By the way, the candles are more of an aesthetic thing. I see them a lot in houses here in Maine.

Ah, interesting! It sounds like a regional thing. I do sometimes see them around houses in my area, but it is usually around the winter holiday season.
 
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Diavolicchio

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Thanks for the Dark Sky info. I never really stopped to consider the affect that these outdoor lights would have on blocking out my ability to enjoy the night sky. My lights wouldn't affect anyone else given my location, but I do enjoy being outside at night and enjoying a sky full of stars.


John
 
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Diavolicchio

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Thanks for the links to all of the fixtures.

By the way, Barn Light Electric buys the vast majority of their fixtures from a company in California called Hi-Lite Mfg. Co. They've simply put a website together to lead you to believe these are all proprietary fixtures, and then charge you a significant markup for them.

You can find them all in Hi-Lite's catalog here. (It's a 70 MB PDF file)

They don't sell direct to consumers, but the sconces I like are Hi-Lite fixtures and I'll be getting them through a local lighting retailer in Maine who is selling them to me at a cost significantly below what Barn Light Electric is charging.


John
 

Striker

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They don't sell direct to consumers, but the sconces I like are Hi-Lite fixtures and I'll be getting them through a local lighting retailer in Maine who is selling them to me at a cost significantly below what Barn Light Electric is charging.

Yeah I know their prices are definitely at the premium level. I often wondered who made the lights because there are other companies that make the same type for far less.
 

nate379

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Don't think I have ever seen those candle window lights used other than during Christmas. My Mom used to (maybe still does) put them up.
(I grew up in Maine)

As for the outside lights, personally I don't turn lights on. I do have a 25w at the front door and that's it. That is there mainly so I can see the door knob and also so guest can see where the front door is.

It's awesome to look up and see all the stars. Can't do that with all the light pollution around the big city (Anchorage)
 

Striker

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Would this qualify as a Dark Sky fixture?

Most fixtures list "dark sky complaint" as a feature in the description or on the box. I would say no considering you're looking at a putting a high wattage CFL bulb in it. The reflector is no where near big enough in my opinion. However, I would call the manufacturer for final confirmation. I'm not exactly a lighting expert.
 
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Diavolicchio

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Striker:

I think I've sorted through all of this.

Your suggestions were really helpful and made me rethink things. I've decided to modify the fixtures so they're more dark sky compliant. I've taken your suggestions regarding a barn light above the garage and wall packs on the other three sides of the structure. I've decided to go with wall sconces similar to the original but with a shade that will at least help to help deflect light going upward (although it still likely isn't a true Dark Sky Compliant fixture.) Finally, I changed how the lights are going to be operated.

I'll therefore have 4 - 57 watt CFL wall sconces--2 flanking the garage door (south) and 1 next to each of the 2 entry doors (east). These will all be operated manually now, either from inside the garage, the apartment, or by a remote in my vehicle:

final_light_1.jpg


I'll have 3 - 42 watt CFL cutoff wall packs that will have integrated motion sensors. These will be located directly beneath the central apartment windows on the east, west and north sides:

final_light_2.jpg


Finally, I'll have 1 - 42 watt CFL barn light directly above the garage door (south) that will be operated by an integrated photocell. Therefore, this will be the only fixture that will be on from dusk until dawn unless the wall packs are activated:

final_light_3.jpg



All fixtures and lamps will work down to 0F. I'll therefore likely have some kind of back-up flood light that will work down to -20F to cover me in a cold snap. Otherwise, I think I may be good to go.

Let me know your thoughts on these new changes. And thanks again for the advice.


John

P.S. I won't be going with black fixtures, by the way. Most likely they'll all be dark green with the exception of the wall packs which come in a dark bronze.
 
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nate379

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I normally want to punch people that have motion sensing lights all around their house. ON and OFF all the DAMN time from wind blow stuff, moose, cars or people going by 200-300ft away... mouse farts and BOOM all the lights are on. :mad:

Is there a need to put that many lights? A few lights by the doors on a switch would be more than enough IMO.
They even sell ones that dim down and come back to full power with motion, that wouldn't be too bad if it was just one or two by the entrance ways.
 
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Diavolicchio

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Nate:

As you can see from my last post, the only lights that will have motion sensors will be the wall packs on the structure, one each on three sides. Each has just a 42 watt CFL. They're meant not to blind anyone, but more as security at night time and to (attempt to) keep the deer away. I've now got all of the primary lights being operated manually or in the case of the light over the garage, managed by a photo sensor (on a dusk, off at dawn.)

Keep in mind that my place is pretty secluded with no neighbors or other sources of light anywhere in sight. We're not talking a tract home in suburbia with cars driving by 24/7. Any lights triggered by the motion sensors will only be seen by me or by someone or something that has wandered clear back onto my property (and most likely shouldn't be there.)


John

P.S. Out of curiosity, are you one of those people with the welcome mats that say GO AWAY ?
 
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barnlightelectric

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Thanks for the links to all of the fixtures.

By the way, Barn Light Electric buys the vast majority of their fixtures from a company in California called Hi-Lite Mfg. Co. They've simply put a website together to lead you to believe these are all proprietary fixtures, and then charge you a significant markup for them.

You can find them all in Hi-Lite's catalog here. (It's a 70 MB PDF file)

They don't sell direct to consumers, but the sconces I like are Hi-Lite fixtures and I'll be getting them through a local lighting retailer in Maine who is selling them to me at a cost significantly below what Barn Light Electric is charging.


John

At Barn Light Electric Company we do sell Hi-Lite MFG Fixtures as well as many other brands and "private label" fixtures that are not available on other web sites. We also manufacture our own light fixtures such as porcelain enamel barn lighting that can only be purchased from our web site. It has been posted on this board in the past that customers who come from this site to purchase will be extended a 10% discount.

Hope this helps.
 
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Diavolicchio

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At Barn Light Electric Company we do sell Hi-Lite MFG Fixtures as well as many other brands and "private label" fixtures that are not available on other web sites. We also manufacture our own light fixtures such as porcelain enamel barn lighting that can only be purchased from our web site. It has been posted on this board in the past that customers who come from this site to purchase will be extended a 10% discount.

Hope this helps.


Barn Light Electric:

Your prices are outrageous. 10% off way-too-much is still too much.

It's a nice gesture though.


John
 

Striker

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I'm still a bit concerned using 42w CFLs on the sconce type lights next to the doors. That is the equivalent of about a 250 watt incandescent light. That is going to be blinding when you approach the door or walk out of it. However, using 42w CFL bulbs in the wall packs is perfect since you're using the cutoff hood.
 
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Diavolicchio

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Striker:

Worst case scenario, the CFLs in the wall sconces are dimmable. I made sure there was the option for a dimmable ballast and bulbs. I should be able to adjust them to whatever level of brightness I want, within reason.


John
 
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nate379

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Sorry, no I didn't read the whole post. For some reason my ADD kicked in after the 2nd line and I just skimmed it.

As for the Welcome mat, I don't have one. :)

The few people that have come to my house unannounced and I didn't know had a shotgun pointed at them. The Jehovah's don't come here anymore cause if it.... (yeah I know... would have done it a long time ago had I known!) :bounce:



Nate:

P.S. Out of curiosity, are you one of those people with the welcome mats that say GO AWAY ?
 

Striker

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Striker:

Worst case scenario, the CFLs in the wall sconces are dimmable. I made sure there was the option for a dimmable ballast and bulbs. I should be able to adjust them to whatever level of brightness I want, within reason.

I haven't seen too many 4 pin CFLs that were dimmable. They might be hard to find. Also dimmable CFLs are either hit or miss. When they work you can get them down to about 30% brightness. If they don't work you're going to have a flickering issue. Dimmable CFLs combined with a motion sensor is just asking for trouble to me.

Anyhow, I think you're going a bit overboard with the superbright CFLs in the wall sconce lights. My suggestion is to put in something between 13w and 26w with a timer or photocell. You will get plenty of light and planes won't mistaken your garage as a runway beacon. :)
 
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Diavolicchio

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I haven't seen too many 4 pin CFLs that were dimmable. They might be hard to find. Also dimmable CFLs are either hit or miss. When they work you can get them down to about 30% brightness. If they don't work you're going to have a flickering issue. Dimmable CFLs combined with a motion sensor is just asking for trouble to me.

Anyhow, I think you're going a bit overboard with the superbright CFLs in the wall sconce lights. My suggestion is to put in something between 13w and 26w with a timer or photocell. You will get plenty of light and planes won't mistaken your garage as a runway beacon. :)

Striker:

I really appreciate all of the feedback. It's been very helpful and has steered me in a different direction than I had originally planned to go.

The dimmable GX24Q CFLs (GE, Sylvania, Global and a number of other lighting folks make them) won't be dimmed in the fixtures with motion sensors. They'll simply have the ability to be. The only fixtures where I'll use the dimming will be the overhead barn light above the garage and the 4 wall sconces.

Yes, the super bright CFLs in the sconces are pushing it, but I wouldn't do it unless the fixtures had the option of a dimmable ballast and I could control the light output as needed. I'm happy as well that the sconces won't be connected to any kind of motion sensor. They'll be operated manually, and the barn light will be controlled with a photo cell and be the one light that I leave on all night.

Thanks again,


John
 
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Striker

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Hey don't forget this is your place. Do what you makes you happy. I definitely like the "industrial" light look you're aiming for with the fixtures. The barn light really pulls it in. Good luck and don't forget to post the pictures with them installed!
 
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Diavolicchio

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Hey don't forget this is your place. Do what you makes you happy. I definitely like the "industrial" light look you're aiming for with the fixtures. The barn light really pulls it in. Good luck and don't forget to post the pictures with them installed!

Thanks, man. I couldn't have done it without your helpful suggestions.

When the place is built and the lights are in place, I'll post some pics. I may need to wear some sunglasses though when I take them. . .

Cheers,


John
 
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Diavolicchio

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Striker,

Just wanted to let you know that I spoke with the manufacturer of the fixtures I'm after (Hi-Lite Mfg. Co.) and he said that dimmable ballasts were available, but that his recommendations for outdoor lighting were the same as yours: Don't bother with dimmable. It would likely work just fine, but was probably overkill for outdoor fixtures. He also suggested to go with the 42 watt 4-pin CFLs instead of the 57s, the primary reason being that if the 42 is still too bright, and you're not dimming them, the base will still accept the next two sizes down. If you go with a base for a 57 watt 4-pin, you're always going to be stuck with a 57 watt bulb. So, I'll be going with 42 watt 4-pin CFLs for all 8 of the outside fixtures, and won't be dimming anything. Easy peasy lemon squeezy.

His other suggestion was to make sure I requested cold weather ballasts for all of the fixtures which I didn't realize I would need to go out of my way to request. It does seem a little ridiculous to go with ballasts that work down to -20F if the bulbs aren't likely to work much lower than 0F, eh?


John
 

Striker

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I must have missed the 57w bulb comment. I would have said the same thing about keeping the base the same so you can swap out to a lower wattage. Anyhow good luck with the work!
 

mustangmccance

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you may also want to put the motion lights on a switch so that if you are sleeping and the motion lights bother you, you can turn them off but leave them on when you are not in for security purposes.
 
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Diavolicchio

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Great idea. There will be one motion light mounted directly beneath the bedroom window, so it would be good to have the ability to shut it off if necessary.

Thanks for the suggestion.


John
 
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