John Deere accident waiting to happen.

[Firebrick43]

Yup. Don't get why people are defending something that's obviously low-quality.

The whole machine is cheaply made. The engine, the deck, its spindles, its front wheels, the steering system, the transmission. What is there to defend about it other than they came up with a dirt cheap quick change system that needs a few dollars in wear parts from time to time.

It’s no different that the low end cub cadet, husquvarna, hell even the low end gravley/exmark/scag/toro aren’t that great either. When people buy to price points in box stores they are going to get what they paid for.

I honestly don't mind the quarter-turn quick release drain cap idea. I do mind that's a thin plastic piece of garbage being exposed to 250°F air-cooled-engine-oil and will invariably degrade, leak and break after just a few years.

Less than 3 dollars and you can replace both the cap annd the Oring ,from the dealer, every oil change if it tickles your fancy. It’s not like many cars and even semis have plastic oil pans, radiator tanks, and intake manifolds exposed to temps within 10-20 degrees of that

A quick look online shows that there are plenty of people complaining about these caps either disappearing and the oil going everywhere, or them seeping/leaking for no apparent reason and needing to be replaced along with the o-ring. Further searching shows that John Deere only uses the cap on the lowest end "S100" series machines. Everything above that uses a valve of some sort, with the highest end X700 series using a proper brass ball valve. So they know it's ****.


Also, FWIW: This is also the series of mower that could have come equipped with the "30 second oil change" system, which is this weird giant proprietary oil filter that comes pre-filled with a 1 quart of oil and has a giant anti-spill valve on the bottom, locking you into $55 oil changes for your lawnmower until John Deere inevitably stops making their special filters and you have to scrap the machine because you literally can't change the oil filter anymore.

JD is not your friend.

Hyperbole at its finest. 30 second search, about the easiest conversion one could do in mins and cost 16$ at my dealer *part number MIU13767

 

[JeepYJ]

...and to reiterate: plenty of complaints on the internet about the caps leaking or popping off unexpectedly.

Think of all the internet complaints about $60,000+ pickups with junk engines, transmissions, etc.

 

[American Locomotive]

The whole machine is cheaply made. The engine, the deck, its spindles, its front wheels, the steering system, the transmission. What is there to defend about it other than they came up with a dirt cheap quick change system that needs a few dollars in wear parts from time to time.

Even the cheapest of products should ensure that critical components are of adequate quality. The thing that holds all of the oil in the engine is definitely a critical component, and shouldn't be so poorly and cheaply designed that it can inadvertently pop off or readily start leaking the very substance it's supposed to contain. Which it does, because there are tons of complaints about this online, and a quick look at Amazon shows them selling multiple hundreds of replacement caps every month.

Hyperbole at its finest. 30 second search, about the easiest conversion one could do in mins and cost 16$ at my dealer *part number MIU13767

Okay, it does appear there are conversion kits. However, those "kits" are just pieced together components that JD uses on engines not-equipped with the system. JD doesn't advertise the conversion. Will a homeowner who purchased an "easy oil change" mower know that there is a conversion kit available in 10 years when JD stops making the combo filters? Will they even have the skills or tools to change out the part? Will they even have the desire to try and figure all that out on a 10-15 year old mower?

It's blatantly anti-consumer vendor-lock-in oil change system preying on the unknowing and ignorant. JD is not your friend.

This is a $2400 machine. It's not a $10 HF angle grinder. Maybe $2400 is chump-change to some of you, but it certainly is not to me. For $2400, I'd expect something better than a "Great Value" water bottle cap holding as something as critical as engine oil in. Cheap can mean lower quality, less features and not as durable, but cheap doesn't mean "it has to be ****" - which this cap is.

It's okay to be critical of companies and egregious penny-pinching.

 

[Renegade1LI]

I actually like the drain set up, I have a D160 at one house and been changing the oil with no issues. Bought the tractor new in 16 so probably 9 or 10 oil changes and the plug still feels tight. I also check the oil before each start and give it a quick look over.

 

[Firebrick43]

Even the cheapest of products should ensure that critical components are of adequate quality. The thing that holds all of the oil in the engine is definitely a critical component, and shouldn't be so poorly and cheaply designed that it can inadvertently pop off or readily start leaking the very substance it's supposed to contain. Which it does, because there are tons of complaints about this online, and a quick look at Amazon shows them selling multiple hundreds of replacement caps every month.

Yes we have long identified that the oring wears and causes the cap to come off.

Do you personally change the crush washer on your drain plug of your car? Why if so?

Okay, it does appear there are conversion kits. However, those "kits" are just pieced together components that JD uses on engines not-equipped with the system. JD doesn't advertise the conversion. Will a homeowner who purchased an "easy oil change" mower know that there is a conversion kit available in 10 years when JD stops making the combo filters? Will they even have the skills or tools to change out the part? Will they even have the desire to try and figure all that out on a 10-15 year old mower?

Yes they do, it’s in their parts system. I don’t know the morality of your local JD parts guy and if he will share it with the customer or not. Why assume he won’t?

Will they have the skills, people buying cheap box store mowers rarely have the skills to change the oil, that is why the ez change system is an option. The kit is advertised as having instructions and looks by the picture to take one wrench and one Allen key. What size I don’t know. If someone can change their spark plug, oil, deck blades, etc I imagine one can install the kit. If not their service guy can or come here and complain

It's blatantly anti-consumer vendor-lock-in oil change system preying on the unknowing and ignorant. JD is not your friend.

Didnt think they were, nor any other brand. I have been critical of them and their access to service software before right to repair.

I have seen all the major brands give a screwing. I have a 650 hour command pro kohler knocking here right now.

At least John Deere has far better parts support than case/ih/new holland and agco in the big tractors. And pretty ok with their garden tractors.

This is a $2400 machine. It's not a $10 HF angle grinder. Maybe $2400 is chump-change to some of you, but it certainly is not to me. For $2400,
I'd expect something better than a "Great Value" water bottle cap holding

Again, extreme hyper exaggerated speech. Do you think people don’t know the difference between a PETG water bottle cap that can be bent in half between two fingers easily and a thick HDPE cap? And it’s not even the cap? It’s the oring that looses tension with the cap allowing to come off

as something as critical as engine oil in. Cheap can mean lower quality, less features and not as durable, but cheap doesn't mean "it has to be ****" - which this cap is.

It's okay to be critical of companies and egregious penny-pinching.

So what about AYP and MTD big box mowers with a similar but not identical plastic quick drain valve?

Because of inflation 2400 dollars for a machine with a 54” deck is about as bottom of the rung of quality as you can get. A quick search of Lowe’s, TSC, and home cheapo put the lowest price riding mowers the sell at around 2100 dollars.

 

[Hohn]

Homeowner tractor I assume…so they gotta make it cheaper and easier to work on. Probably the only thing most homeowners would do is change the oil and maybe a plug every 10 years…

Designed to the target market.

Guessing this is a “john deere” sold at a box store, not at an implement dealer.

From what i can tell, the two lines are so dissimilar that painting them the same color is a huge disservice. I could be mistaken.

 

[Firebrick43]

Guessing this is a “john deere” sold at a box store, not at an implement dealer.

From what i can tell, the two lines are so dissimilar that painting them the same color is a huge disservice. I could be mistaken.

You can actually buy them at the dealer as well. Most of them are sold at the box stores.

Dealers hate them because they don’t get the sale typically but have to deal with the warranty and knuckle heads that don’t understand they are a mower built to the same price point as othe big box mowers and not to the standards of John Deere’s other products

 

[finn]

Even the cheapest of products should ensure that critical components are of adequate quality. The thing that holds all of the oil in the engine is definitely a critical component, and shouldn't be so poorly and cheaply designed that it can inadvertently pop off or readily start leaking the very substance it's supposed to contain. Which it does, because there are tons of complaints about this online, and a quick look at Amazon shows them selling multiple hundreds of replacement caps every month.

Okay, it does appear there are conversion kits. However, those "kits" are just pieced together components that JD uses on engines not-equipped with the system. JD doesn't advertise the conversion. Will a homeowner who purchased an "easy oil change" mower know that there is a conversion kit available in 10 years when JD stops making the combo filters? Will they even have the skills or tools to change out the part? Will they even have the desire to try and figure all that out on a 10-15 year old mower?

It's blatantly anti-consumer vendor-lock-in oil change system preying on the unknowing and ignorant. JD is not your friend.

This is a $2400 machine. It's not a $10 HF angle grinder. Maybe $2400 is chump-change to some of you, but it certainly is not to me. For $2400, I'd expect something better than a "Great Value" water bottle cap holding as something as critical as engine oil in. Cheap can mean lower quality, less features and not as durable, but cheap doesn't mean "it has to be ****" - which this cap is.

It's okay to be critical of companies and egregious penny-pinching.

At ten years, it will be getting its second oil change, so what’s the issue? By twenty years it will be at the recycler’s facility.

These are regular homeowner machines, not legacy machines you expect to hand down to your grandchildren.

John Deere isn’t a bunch of dumbasses that don’t know their market..

Again, has anyone see one of thesethings fail and destroy an engine? All you experts must have seen one engine failure, if not several dozen, the way everyone is spouting off.

That’s three oil changes.

Engines have been using plastic / composite components like oil pans for decades, and the world hasn’t ended.

In tact, has anyone taken the time to look into what the material actually is? All we have is an old mechanic calling it “plastic”, with no real information or analysis.

 

[Farmall450]

MTD has also had a cheap/sh!tty plastic drain plug tool-less system for years. Replace it with a piece of pipe and a cap if you don't like it

 

[kctgb]

I would have used a metal hose clamp.

I was thinking the same thing. Didn’t have one handy in the garage.

 

[American Locomotive]

Plastic is a great material, and it's fine for some engine parts. However it has proven to be very problematic when subjected to continuous contact with hot oil. This even more so on an air-cooled engine, which typically run 100 degrees hotter than liquid cooled engines.

There is no need to try and justify this on something that costs over $2000. Regardless of what class the machine is in, whatever holds the oil in should be robust and durable and not leak-prone. We're talking a difference in dollars per machine between this crappy cap, and something more substantial.

The shareholders will be just fine if JD used a spring loaded metal cap that fit snugly and securely.

 

[macdabs]

The newer Audis all have plastic qtr turn drain plugs with a lock style plastic that is thin as a finger nail . You replace the drain plug every oil change for 8.00 bucks . 60k vehicle with a plastic pan and a plug . Even a F350 diesels have plastic plugs and pans until recently they just went bac to steel pans and plugs ,

 

[Renegade1LI]

Guessing this is a “john deere” sold at a box store, not at an implement dealer.

From what i can tell, the two lines are so dissimilar that painting them the same color is a huge disservice. I could be mistaken.

I bought mine from a local dealer, delivered and set up. The tech told me it's the same machine, in fact they deliver for Lowes and hd.

 

[kctgb]

At ten years, it will be getting its second oil change, so what’s the issue? By twenty years it will be at the recycler’s facility.

These are regular homeowner machines, not legacy machines you expect to hand down to your grandchildren.

John Deere isn’t a bunch of dumbasses that don’t know their market..

Again, has anyone see one of thesethings fail and destroy an engine? All you experts must have seen one engine failure, if not several dozen, the way everyone is spouting off.

That’s three oil changes.

Engines have been using plastic / composite components like oil pans for decades, and the world hasn’t ended.

In tact, has anyone taken the time to look into what the material actually is? All we have is an old mechanic calling it “plastic”, with no real information or analysis.

JD has done some really dumb things in the past with tractor design. And let’s not forget, a good number of JD tractors are made by a different manufacturer and painted green. Not long ago JD ATV’s were made by Bombardie with green paint. Not everything in the JD line up is made by JD.
Yanmar has been making small green tractors for years.

 

[JeepYJ]

Not everything in JD line up is made by JD.

Small engines are not made by Deere. They use basically the same as other manufacturers who also do not manufacture their engines. B&S, Kohler and Kawasaki are the main suppliers for most all the lawnmowers. Transaxles and hydros are other parts that are sourced by everyone from just a handful of manufacturers.
When was the last Deere ATV made? Deere builds their own Gators in Wisconsin IIRC. The entry level lawnmowers are built by Deere in Tennessee.

 

[LB-1911]

JD has done some really dumb things in the past with tractor design. And let’s not forget, a good number of JD tractors are made by a different manufacturer and painted green. Not long ago JD ATV’s were made by Bombardie with green paint. Not everything in the JD line up is made by JD.
Yanmar has been making small green tractors for years.

Your misinformed.
Do they share numerous parts of other brand riding mowers? Yes.

• Greeneville, Tennessee, United States: Lawn and garden tractors

Where are John Deere Tractors Made? | MachineFinder | Machinefinder

There are over 100 John Deere factories around the world, spanning more than 30 countries. John Deere tractors are manufactured in 14 different locations throughout these countries. Learn more here.

www.machinefinder.com

 

[kctgb]

Small engines are not made by Deere. They use basically the same as other manufacturers who also do not manufacture their engines. B&S, Kohler and Kawasaki are the main suppliers for most all the lawnmowers. Transaxles and hydros are other parts that are sourced by everyone from just a handful of manufacturers.
When was the last Deere ATV made? Deere builds their own Gators in Wisconsin IIRC. The entry level lawnmowers are built by Deere in Tennessee.

I hate to say a blasphemous thing like this. Briggs engines are made in China now. I would rather take a Kawasaki engine over a BS engine.

 

[kctgb]

Your misinformed.
Do they share numerous parts of other brand riding mowers? Yes.

• Greeneville, Tennessee, United States: Lawn and garden tractors

Where are John Deere Tractors Made? | MachineFinder | Machinefinder

There are over 100 John Deere factories around the world, spanning more than 30 countries. John Deere tractors are manufactured in 14 different locations throughout these countries. Learn more here.

www.machinefinder.com

Yanmar has been making green tractors for years. A number of JD tractors were shipped in crates from Japan to the US for assembly in a JD plant. I wouldn’t say they are made by JD.

 

[LB-1911]

Yanmar has been making green tractors for years.

Since your thread was about a riding lawn mower I apparently labored under the misapprehension you were referring to their lower series line of riding mowers.

 

[JeepYJ]

Yanmar has been making green tractors for years.

Yanmar hasn’t built tractors for JD since about 2016. The compact tractors are built in Georgia by Deere.

I hate to say a blasphemous thing like this. Briggs engines are made in China now. I would rather take a Kawasaki engine over a BS engine.

B&S filed for bankruptcy awhile back. They aren’t the same company they once were. A Kaw small engine is my preference. Deere has used them for decades.

 

[kctgb]

Yanmar hasn’t built tractors for JD since about 2016. The compact tractors are built in Georgia by Deere.


B&S filed for bankruptcy awhile back. They aren’t the same company they once were. A Kaw small engine is my preference. Deere has used them for decades.

Briggs filed chapter 11, that isn’t exactly bankruptcy. I live down the highway from Briggs headquarters, they used chapter 11 so they didn’t have to pay their debts and reorganize to china. Every time a company doesn’t want to pay their debts they file chapter 11.

 

[cannuck]

Have you ever, in your 48 years wrenching, encountered a drain cap that fell off?

If the design works, why should Deere redesign it because some old timer doesn’t like the way it looks, as long as there’s no warranty claim history of any significance.

Besides that, Deere doesn’t make the engines in their lawn mowers. That part would be designed, specified, and qualified by the engine manufacturer., be it Kawasaki, Briggs, Kohler, Honda, or whoever builds that particular engine.

In all fairness, and "adequate" level of design for some things is only reached when it has become idiot proof. A good wrench knows that level instinctively when he or she sees it. To give you an example: the drain plug on my wife's Q7 with 3,0 litre TDI has a 7mm (IIRC) hex socket in it's oil drain plug, and the sealing ring requires that you REALLY torque the living **** out of it to avoid leakage. To make matters worse, there is a bottom plastic shroud lined with oil absorbing acoustic foam. At 94k I did my first oil change (all previous done under warranty by dealer) and found something just screaming failure from someone using a discount store hex socket leaving a broken stub jammed into the drain plug. No room to drop pan so figure 5 grand bill to lift power train and fix the mess. You couldn't get vice grips on OD of plug because it sits hard against a cross member (thus why hex key instead of hex nut). You wouldn't likely find a less-than-perfect drip into the foam until next change or stained parking place.

 

[mm08822]

That drain tube & cap has very limited protection from getting sheared off while cutting next to pruned bushes. If mine, I would add a small length of angle iron parallel to the tube to act as a guard.

If it took the right hit, it could even crack the engine housing , then you are screwed.

 

[kctgb]

Guessing this is a “john deere” sold at a box store, not at an implement dealer.

From what i can tell, the two lines are so dissimilar that painting them the same color is a huge disservice. I could be mistaken.

I talked to the owner, he said he bought it at Home Depot. I also talked to the local JD dealer. The riding tractors are shipped to the dealer without the steering wheel on and no deck attached. The dealer has to assemble the mowers, adjust the deck, and then take them to Home Depot.

 

[Sumboodie]

Our reliability guys used to hate those Fumoto plugs with a passion.

Every time some clueless consumer would install one and then proceed to shear it off because it hung below the pan of their diesel pickup, and make an engine failure claim, they would deny the claim.

They denied more than you would think.

If they're ripping off a valve, that means they're also ripping stuff off the axles, transmission, t case, etc.
Least on all my trucks the oil pan isn't anywhere near the lowest thing.

Probably not a good choice without skid plates for rock crawling that F350 dually or whatever they were attempting.

 

[JeepYJ]

Briggs filed chapter 11, that isn’t exactly bankruptcy.

Chapter 11 is in the bankruptcy code. It allows a business to stay open and not liquidate assets to pay creditors.
“Chapter 11 is a type of bankruptcy that reorganizes a struggling company's debts to allow it to stay open and become solvent. A court-appointed trustee oversees the reorganization.1 Although individuals can file Chapter 11 bankruptcy, it's most commonly filed by businesses.”

B&S is now owned by KPS Capital Partners out of New York.

 

[Sumboodie]

That Deere pipe may not be an NPT pipe.
Ran into it on some engines that it was an oddball thread. I can't remember now if it was metric or some unique thread. I know we sourced "kits" online to convert them.

Yes the cap can pop off especially if running the tractor in brush or in the cold where the plastic loses tension (generally just leaks then though)

 

[Firebrick43]

That Deere pipe may not be an NPT pipe.
Ran into it on some engines that it was an oddball thread. I can't remember now if it was metric or some unique thread. I know we sourced "kits" online to convert them.

Yes the cap can pop off especially if running the tractor in brush or in the cold where the plastic loses tension (generally just leaks then though)

A lot of engines use an M10 straight thread that the shoulder tightens against the block with a washer. The typical kawasaki engine that many JD engines have use the M10 so It was my first thought as well.

but looking at the parts it does appear that the briggs engine used does indeed utilize an NPT thread

 

[JeepYJ]

That drain tube & cap has very limited protection from getting sheared off while cutting next to pruned bushes. If mine, I would add a small length of angle iron parallel to the tube to act as a guard.

If it took the right hit, it could even crack the engine housing , then you are screwed.

I’ve seen a lot of small engines with the pipe extension and cap to clear the tractor frame. I think your scenario is a non issue in 99.9999% of cases.

 

[Firebrick43]

I’ve seen a lot of small engines with the pipe extension and cap to clear the tractor frame. I think your scenario is a non issue in 99.9999% of cases.

Plus you would have to wipe out the hood (its wider) and small side panel before anything hits the drain tube!

7:30 time stamp shows how its covered

 

[Hohn]

A lot of engines use an M10 straight thread that the shoulder tightens against the block with a washer. The typical kawasaki engine that many JD engines have use the M10 so It was my first thought as well.

but looking at the parts it does appear that the briggs engine used does indeed utilize an NPT thread

That’s probably a straight thread port per ISO 9974:

https://cdn.standards.iteh.ai/samples/17882/574da553bf024378b996324a9ca9c51b/ISO-9974-1-1996.pdf

(Note the 3rd paragraph of the standard basically saying it’s obsolete and all new designs should be O-rings (per ISO 6149) instead)).

It’s a DIN standard (3852) that ISO picked up. The ports are essentially the same, but the unions used with them are typically a bit different. The DIN primarily uses metal to metal bite edge seals while the ISO uses face seals that are elastomers— face seals or sealing washers.

If you see a metric thread for a banjo fitting and seal washer, it will be this style of port.

 

[Firebrick43]

That’s probably a straight thread port per ISO 9974:

https://cdn.standards.iteh.ai/samples/17882/574da553bf024378b996324a9ca9c51b/ISO-9974-1-1996.pdf

(Note the 3rd paragraph of the standard basically saying it’s obsolete and all new designs should be O-rings (per ISO 6149) instead)).

It’s a DIN standard (3852) that ISO picked up. The ports are essentially the same, but the unions used with them are typically a bit different. The DIN primarily uses metal to metal bite edge seals while the ISO uses face seals that are elastomers— face seals or sealing washers.

If you see a metric thread for a banjo fitting and seal washer, it will be this style of port.

Yes they are a iso port, if one gets a drain extension hose on them they seal with an o ring in the tapered chamfer.

Briggs vanguard V twins does the same thing that are made by daihatsu.

surprising the drain plugs as supplied don't use the oring or stat-o-seal style washers but just a copper washer that seals against the flat face around the port

 

[mm08822]

Plus you would have to wipe out the hood (its wider) and small side panel before anything hits the drain tube!

7:30 time stamp shows how its covered

Didn't know it had additional protection than what was shown in pic on post #1.

My JD had a Kohler Command that had something similar and was on the left side of the tractor. That was the side that always ran along the trimmed bushes. Bushes can generate some significant dead wood through the years. The hood can easily deflect that dead wood and when rebounding reach things you don't expect it to.

 

[kctgb]

Chapter 11 is in the bankruptcy code. It allows a business to stay open and not liquidate assets to pay creditors.
“Chapter 11 is a type of bankruptcy that reorganizes a struggling company's debts to allow it to stay open and become solvent. A court-appointed trustee oversees the reorganization.1 Although individuals can file Chapter 11 bankruptcy, it's most commonly filed by businesses.”

B&S is now owned by KPS Capital Partners out of New York.

Isn’t that what I said in my comment?

 

[kctgb]

That Deere pipe may not be an NPT pipe.
Ran into it on some engines that it was an oddball thread. I can't remember now if it was metric or some unique thread. I know we sourced "kits" online to convert them.

Yes the cap can pop off especially if running the tractor in brush or in the cold where the plastic loses tension (generally just leaks then though)

I called the JD dealer to see if any kits were available to replace that stupid plastic cap. None are available from JD.

 

[JeepYJ]

Isn’t that what I said in my comment?

You said “that isn’t exactly bankruptcy”
Chapter 11 is part of the bankruptcy law. It is exactly bankruptcy. And companies don’t just file Ch 11 when they don’t want to pay bills.

 

[kctgb]

You said “that isn’t exactly bankruptcy”
Chapter 11 is part of the bankruptcy law. It is exactly bankruptcy. And companies don’t just file Ch 11 when they don’t want to pay bills.

They file 11 when they don’t want to pay their bills and move to China. John Deere is doing the same thing moving to Mexico. JD didn’t file 11, they **** on America to move operations to Mexico. If I was a farmer I wouldn’t buy JD.

 

[JeepYJ]

They file 11 when they don’t want to pay their bills and move to China. John Deere is doing the same thing moving to Mexico. JD didn’t file 11, they **** on America to move operations to Mexico. If I was a farmer I wouldn’t buy JD.

A company doesn’t just “get” to file Ch 11 and not pay bills. There is a court that decides who gets paid and how much and when.

JD isnt moving to Mexico. They’re moving some production to Mexico. Just like CNH and AGCO. CNH isn’t even a USA company. There are a whole lot of reasons why ag companies are manufacturing outside the USA. Some of those reasons are forbidden topics here on GJ. Other reasons include the fact that there is global demand for ag equipment and manufacturing it outside the USA can be favorable.

This discussion started out about a questionable design choice on cheap lawnmowers and has moved all the way to production ag machinery. Quite the leap.

 

[Racer_X]

Isn’t that what I said in my comment?

Briggs filed chapter 11, that isn’t exactly bankruptcy.

 

[kctgb]

A company doesn’t just “get” to file Ch 11 and not pay bills. There is a court that decides who gets paid and how much and when.

JD isnt moving to Mexico. They’re moving some production to Mexico. Just like CNH and AGCO. CNH isn’t even a USA company. There are a whole lot of reasons why ag companies are manufacturing outside the USA. Some of those reasons are forbidden topics here on GJ. Other reasons include the fact that there is global demand for ag equipment and manufacturing it outside the USA can be favorable.

This discussion started out about a questionable design choice on cheap lawnmowers and has moved all the way to production ag machinery. Quite the leap.

Have you ever heard of a court denying a chapter 11. It’s a loop hole for large companies to not pay their debtors. When a company walks away from their debt it’s the consumer who picks up the expense. In my book it’s BS! If you or I tried this chapter 11 nonsense, the bank would foreclose on everything we own for auction.
I still wouldn’t buy JD if I was a farmer.