What's going on with R410A?

[MushCreek]

Yes, I know it's being phased out. I thought it would be by now. But- I'm in the market for a cheap mini-split for my shop, and brand new units are still 410A. In a way, that's good for me, because I already have three other units that are 410A, and I'm all set up to service them. What I have noticed is a sharp uptick in prices for the refrigerant, and it seems to be trickier to get. I can get a 25 lb. jug for about $300, up from $200 just a year ago. In the past, I bought it on ebay, but now, no one seems to be selling it there at all. Online sellers require certification to sell it to you. So- has it been phased out altogether, or not? Have the rules been tightened up?

 

[OccupantRJ]

Up until two years ago I had a couple of R22 units to deal with. Now I am down to one. I bought the full 30 pounder in the box I got from the Target parking lot for $250. YMMV

 

[Skiff Builder]

I looked last week and found several online sellers. Just need to check the box stating it will be installed by a cert. person. Last 25# I bought was $100. Now $369!!

Getting the 608 universal cert is not too difficult.

R-410A Refrigerant 25 lb.

R-410A Refrigerant 25 lb. (total weight: 33 lb.) Free Continental US Shipping Bulk discounts when ordering 10 or more (select pallet size above) 100% Virgin Factory Sealed Satisfaction Guaranteed Brand and color of cylinder may vary R-410a, also known as Puron, is a hydrofluorocarbon (HFC)...

erefrigerants.com

 

[toplessHO]

I spoke to a manufacturer last week about why they are still using 410a.
They claim that the replacement 454b is too flammable.
Mini splits are going for R32.
What a mess

 

[txvwnut]

410a is being phased out of new production units but with so many existing units running 410a currently in service it could be several years before production of the gas ends. Look at how many years it took to get R12 off the shelves after OEM's switched to 134. It was 10 years after the phase out of R22 for the production of that gas to end.

 

[bonneyman]

I spoke to a manufacturer last week about why they are still using 410a.
They claim that the replacement 454b is too flammable.
Mini splits are going for R32.
What a mess

I'm so glad I got out of HVAC when I did. I would not be able to stomach the situation that's developed.
Having to carry so many gas cylinders, plus separate manifolds and vacuum pumps and reclaim cylinders - just to minimize the risk of cross-contamination. Back then some guys had 4 gases with them (R22, R410a, R12, and R134a) - to do A/C's and refrigerators. Now - who knows? With all the generations of gases - plus all the potential blends - guys will probably have to start driving 18 wheelers to do service.

 

[rlitman]

I looked last week and found several online sellers. Just need to check the box stating it will be installed by a cert. person. Last 25# I bought was $100. Now $369!!

Still $270 here. But as with previous phase outs, I would expect it to continue to climb.

 

[toplessHO]

maybe I should buy some just to have it.
can store along side the R12,22,502,134a,11
Ive kept all these years

 

[rlitman]

maybe I should buy some just to have it.
can store along side the R12,22,502,134a,11
Ive kept all these years

LOL, I'm not sure it's the best investment. R12 isn't worth much any more, and in a couple of decades, R22 is probably going the same way as the remaining operational systems attrit.

 

[WildBill]

$270 here. https://refrigerantscenter.com/collections/r410a
$320 here. https://abilityrefrigerants.com/product/r410a-refrigerant-25-lbs/

I have a friend who swears by the top place and I have bought a bunch from the second one without any problems. Both just need you to click a box saying you are licensed or will give/sell it to a licensed person. Both have free shipping.

 

[Dagny]

R32 is also flammable. this insanity needs to stop.

 

[Snapped-off]

R32 is also flammable. this insanity needs to stop.

Wait till you find out about propane.

 

[Dagny]

R290 is propane use in small domestic refrigeration in very small amounts.

 

[bonneyman]

Wait till you find out about propane.

I'd say use the propane to cool your house, then pipe the expanded gas to your outdoor grille and cook your steaks!

 

[pcmeiners]

Most of the low priced sellers charge shipping, so $270 becomes approx $300 with shipping/tax.
Thanks OP for posting, just bought a 25lbs tank. Like you last I looked it was $200.... only the Shadow will know what it will be in a couple years as the greed increases. Buy it now or cry later. With my (5) mini splits it is not so cheap insurance.

https://www.refrigerantguys.com/productslist.asp

Order Details: Code Item Qty Price Grand Total 111016 R410A Refrigerant, 25lb Cylinder 1 $230.00 $230.00 Subtotal:​ $230.00 Tax (6%):​ $16.80 Shipping Cost:​ $49.96 Grand Total:​ $296.76

"I spoke to a manufacturer last week about why they are still using 410a."

The manufacturers are smart enough to have purchased large amount of r410.

 

[American Locomotive]

If you really want your jaw to drop, go price out some r454b - anywhere between $1500-$2000 for a jug. Absolutely insane.

R32 is about 1/4 the cost, but a lot of American companies seem to be going for r454b. I suspect because r454b has lower discharge temperatures, so they don't need to redesign their compressors to handle the higher temps.

We really just need to switch to R290. It's very efficient, cheap and works well with small charges, so most home appliances (including window ACs and minisplits) pose very little risk of something bad happening even if they dumped their whole charge. Plus flammable gas sensors are pretty cheap these days. Just stick one in the unit.

I spoke to a manufacturer last week about why they are still using 410a.
They claim that the replacement 454b is too flammable.
Mini splits are going for R32.
What a mess

Not all of them. Mitsubishi just released their new updated line of minisplits, and they're r454b for whatever reason. They also have about a ~$400 price bump compared to the outgoing units.

 

[toplessHO]

and we didnt even mention R1234yf and that change from 134a

 

[American Locomotive]

and we didnt even mention R1234yf and that change from 134a

The fun thing is, r454b is a 68.9/31.1% blend of R32 and r1234yf. Yet for some reason costs significantly more than either one per pound.

Gotta' love it.

 

[Snapped-off]

The fun thing is, r454b is a 68.9/31.1% blend of R32 and r1234yf. Yet for some reason costs significantly more than either one per pound.

Gotta' love it.

I've heard some supply houses won't sell 454 unless you buy a unit to go with it.

I've also heard some guys dumping the 454 and charging with 410. No long term data on that yet.

 

[danski0224]

454b is going for 800 near me.

 

[PoorUB]

R454 is running in short supply. HVAC guys are putting in new units and dumping R32 or some other juice because it us hard to get.

A really weird situation.

I'm so glad I retired and don't have to deal with this ****!

The AC in my house and garage is still R22 and I will keep them running as long as I can. The garage unit developed a leak a while back and bit gas MO99 in it.

 

[toplessHO]

cant wait for the catalytic converter guys to start stealing this stuff.
Im guessing that average residential system holds 4 lbs or so....

 

[bonneyman]

R454 is running in short supply. JVAC guys are putting in bed units and dumping R32 or some other juice because it us hard to get.

A really weird situation.

I'm so glad I retired and Mohave to deal with this ****!

The AC in my house and garage is still R22 and I will keep them running as long as I can. The garage unit developed a leak a while back and bit gas MO99 in it.

10-4! My home A/C and shop window unit are R22. Gonna keep them going as long as possible.

 

[brewchief]

Refrigerant is a commodity and the price will go up and down, some years back the price of 410a tripled in price in about a week when a couple of the plants in china that produced the gases used to make it blew up, IIRC it was close to 800 or 1000 a 25# tank until the supply was replenished.
454b has apparently had a shortage of the tanks to put it in, they are slightly different with a left handed thread on the valve. The price will drop as supply catches up.

Both r32 and r454b are mildly flammable and require a sensor in the indoor coil that shuts the unit down and runs the fan if it detects a leak.

 

[The Metric System]

The endgame for refrigerants long-term is going to be flammable natural compounds like R-290 (propane) and R-600 (isobutane).

Their thermal properties are beautiful, they are excellent from the standpoint of compressor life and oil stability, have low environmental impact so minimal/no regulations, and we figured out how to manage the potential safety concerns decades ago.

In most countries you're allowed to vent them directly to atmosphere vs going through the whole recovery process.

Another benefit to end users are that (as they are naturally occurring) they cannot be patented, which prevents any given refrigerant manufacturer from holding a monopoly on them - so prices stay low.

The scaremongering about "that propane will blow your house up" is driven by:

• People who don't understand the technology and can't be bothered to learn
• Deliberate marketing/regulatory campaigns by legacy refrigerant manufacturers who don't want to lose their golden goose when the whole world transitions to cheap refrigerants that will never sunset

 

[pcmeiners]

"The price will drop as supply catches up."

Sure it will.

"So prices stay low"

You consider >$300 low? and that is wholesale, what will the "professionals" charge per lb.?

"The scaremongering about "that propane will blow your house up" is driven by:

• People who don't understand the technology and can't be bothered to learn
• Deliberate marketing/regulatory campaigns by legacy refrigerant manufacturers who don't want to lose their golden goose when the whole world transitions to cheap refrigerants that will never sunset"

Agree, the HVAC industry lobbyists have a field day in Washington DC

 

[micromind]

The endgame for refrigerants long-term is going to be flammable natural compounds like R-290 (propane) and R-600 (isobutane).

Their thermal properties are beautiful, they are excellent from the standpoint of compressor life and oil stability, have low environmental impact so minimal/no regulations, and we figured out how to manage the potential safety concerns decades ago.

In most countries you're allowed to vent them directly to atmosphere vs going through the whole recovery process.

Another benefit to end users are that (as they are naturally occurring) they cannot be patented, which prevents any given refrigerant manufacturer from holding a monopoly on them - so prices stay low.

The scaremongering about "that propane will blow your house up" is driven by:

• People who don't understand the technology and can't be bothered to learn
• Deliberate marketing/regulatory campaigns by legacy refrigerant manufacturers who don't want to lose their golden goose when the whole world transitions to cheap refrigerants that will never sunset

While this would be ideal, it'll never happen......there are too many educated idiot engineers out there who feel they must come up with a fancy newfangled refrigerant in order to make themselves look good and more important, to keep their jobs.

But yes, I agree, both propane and butane are near perfect refrigerants. Far better than some of the trash we are stuck with now......

 

[The Metric System]

"So prices stay low"

You consider >$300 low? and that is wholesale, what will the "professionals" charge per lb.?

Part of my job is managing the service and repair of a global network of critical-application refrigeration systems, I buy a lot of refrigerant and have increasingly found R-290 to be a very cost-effective option compared to conventional alternatives.

This is both because the gas itself is inexpensive and because the total amounts involved are very small compared to conventional systems.

For example, R-290 is available over the counter for $163 for a 6-pack of 400 gram cylinders. Given that ~400g would be a very stout charge for an R-290 system that works out to a per-system price of less than $30 for the refrigerant. I consider this to be low.

While this would be ideal, it'll never happen......there are too many educated idiot engineers out there who feel they must come up with a fancy newfangled refrigerant in order to make themselves look good and more important, to keep their jobs.

The engineers and (competent) companies I work with in this industry love working with natural refrigerants and are shifting their designs to R-290 and R-600 etc as quickly as they can.

The only engineers who get rewarded for cooking up new refrigerants are the ones who work for chemical companies; the equipment manufacturers don't like being beholden to DuPont or Honeywell any more than homeowners do.

The main barrier to widespread adoption of natural refrigerants in the US was the existence of conservative safety standards that put a very low cap on the amount of flammable gas that could be used in a single circuit. As of 2024 these standards have been modified to allow larger charge amounts, and further changes are expected soon. As this loosens up I expect we'll see more widespread adoption of natural refrigerants in residential applications.

 

[Snapped-off]

You consider >$300 low? and that is wholesale, what will the "professionals" charge per lb.?

$85/lb for the local guy down the road. His guys stay busy year round.

 

[jar944]

The scaremongering about "that propane will blow your house up" is driven by:

Pay no attention to the propane line feeding the furnace burner below the coil, that isn't bad propane.

 

[MushCreek]

Just out of curiosity- How much damage would, say, a pound of propane do in a house if it ignited? Worst case scenario- the system has a leak, but isn't being used. The propane leaks out and meets a source of ignition. Are we talking 'boom' or 'BOOOMMM'?

BTW- Houses with propane or natural gas do occasionally blow up. Sure, there was a leak, but it does happen.

 

[gmcgeo]

Just out of curiosity- How much damage would, say, a pound of propane do in a house if it ignited? Worst case scenario- the system has a leak, but isn't being used. The propane leaks out and meets a source of ignition. Are we talking 'boom' or 'BOOOMMM'?

BTW- Houses with propane or natural gas do occasionally blow up. Sure, there was a leak, but it does happen.

1lb of Propane is equal to 21.6 megajoules. 5 sticks of Dynamite is 10.5 MJ So yes, it could do some real damage.

I have been on many many emergency calls from Propane and NG explosions

Propane has to have the right conditions to release that energy though. Dynamite is a detonation

 

[Dagny]

Yes but we don't run the gas line into the plenum and hook it to a very poorly made coil that it seems is designed to leak. Which takes a full circle to why we are using flamable refrigerants in the first place. Stop making **** equipment and go back to 12,22 and 502.

 

[Dagny]

All my furnace installations are done with American made black pipe.

 

[The Metric System]

Yes but we don't run the gas line into the plenum and hook it to a very poorly made coil that it seems is designed to leak. Which takes a full circle to why we are using flamable refrigerants in the first place.

Systems with flammable refrigerants use different coils and piping/assembly practices; they are designed to greatly reduce the number of joints and wholly eliminate gasketed/threaded joints that could loosen in service.

They are much more leak-tight than a conventional system.

1lb of Propane is equal to 21.6 megajoules. 5 sticks of Dynamite is 10.5 MJ

Consider how people transport and handle the standard 16 oz disposable propane cylinders that anybody can buy at Walmart. Those are designed to have the cheapest valving possible and there are millions of them stored in vehicles and closets and crawlspaces all over the country, and they very rarely cause a safety issue unless somebody is misapplying them.

This is largely because even 1 lb mass of propane dispersed in a 8'x8'x8' room will be below it's lower flammability limit and therefore not ignitable.

The biggest hazard associated with flammable refrigerants is that they are not odorized, so you can't detect a leak by smell. It is possible to unknowingly create a hazardous environment if a larger bulk tank has a leak. This is why the standard bottle sizes are only~400g, it prevents an undetected leak during transport/install/service from becoming an explosion risk.

 

[jar944]

1lb of Propane is equal to 21.6 megajoules. 5 sticks of Dynamite is 10.5 MJ So yes, it could do some real damage.

I have been on many many emergency calls from Propane and NG explosions

Propane has to have the right conditions to release that energy though. Dynamite is a detonation

And a big Mac is 2.3 megajoules. Propane doesn't have a detonation velocity unlike HE. Then you have to contain it and get the mix right to make it ignite.

Yes but we don't run the gas line into the plenum and hook it to a very poorly made coil that it seems is designed to leak. Which takes a full circle to why we are using flamable refrigerants in the first place. Stop making **** equipment and go back to 12,22 and 502.

From a few recent studies most homes with gas appliances have some level of leakage, and 4% have significant leaks. Not sure how another potential leak point makes a significant difference.

 

[gmcgeo]

This is largely because even 1 lb mass of propane dispersed in a 8'x8'x8' room will be below it's lower flammability limit and therefore not ignitable.

1lb of Propane is equal to 21.6 megajoules. 5 sticks of Dynamite is 10.5 MJ So yes, it could do some real damage.

Propane has to have the right conditions to release that energy though.

And a big Mac is 2.3 megajoules. Propane doesn't have a detonation velocity unlike HE. Then you have to contain it and get the mix right to make it ignite.

I said that

 

[rlitman]

...This is largely because even 1 lb mass of propane dispersed in a 8'x8'x8' room will be below it's lower flammability limit and therefore not ignitable...

Hummm, 1 lb propane @44g/mol = 10.3 moles x 22.4 l = 231 l / 2.1% (LEL) = 10987 l, which works out to 1 lb of propane raising a 388 cubic foot space above the LEL. 8x8x8=512 cubic feet. Ok. That checks, assuming even mixing. But propane doesn't mix as evenly as NG (NG also floats up). So yeah, that's why 16 oz LP cylinders are allowed indoors, but anything larger is unwise.

 

[fillister]

Here is a link to Copeland R290 resource page.

R-290 Resources

Explore our expanding R-290 portfolio for self-contained refrigeration equipment to meet regulatory compliance and sustainability objectives

e360hub.copeland.com

In the 70's here in Phoenix, Bryant and Arkla Servel had natural gas fired Ammonia R717 absorbers on residential homes. The ammonia was circulated to a vertical chiller tank in the outdoor unit, water was pumped over the ammonia solution coil and the chilled water was pumped to a chilled water coil and air handler in the home.

Really not much different than a gas electric refrigerator in a motorhome.

R290 could be done the same way, no propane piped into the home, just chilled water.

 

[pcmeiners]

As pointed out by The Metric System as to the safety designed into systems running R290 or similar flammables I do not see the overt danger issues. As is we have leaking barbecue tanks/lines and ovens/ranges, NG lines and valves leaking, gasoline and acetylene stored in homes and garages. If the dangers of gasoline or natural gas were pushed as much we would not be allowed to use them. This society goes overboard on many things.