Deteriorated service conduit to Meter

[Russell_Reid]

My electrician is digging the trench to run the feeder lines from the house to the sub-panel in the new outbuilding. He discovered that the service feed conduit into the meter has deteriorated at ground level to the point where the service lines into the Meter are exposed. Right where our lawn service likes to weed whack. I have put in a request with Oncor (our service provider) to see what needs to be done. According to them they own everything on the service side of the meter base. But there is nothing on their site about who owns the costs for the repair. They have a 48 hour response window so i doubt i will hear anything until next week. Service line is 50 years old. So i guess i shouldn't be surprised. But it still is another hurdle for our outbuilding project.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

this is why i dont like using rigid metal conduit for underground service risers.

sch 80 PVC doesnt rot.... and its damn near impossible for a weed wacker to F! it up

IMPO that is an emergency repair that should be fixed ASAP. I would call them back and ask for a troubleshooter to come out. Tell them youre worried about your gardener/landscaper getting shocked or electrocuted due to exposed service entrance wires that have no short circuit or overload protection. the liability is on them but you as the homeowner could still be sued

just moving that ragged sharp rigid in the wrong direction could slice the conductor insulation, causing bare wire to be exposed and potentially energizing the conduit...or an unsuspecting unobservant landscaper walking by with a weed wacker could slice right thru the insulation....

you dont want to chance that...

 

[kbuhagiar]

IMPO that is an emergency repair that should be fixed ASAP. I would call them back and ask for a troubleshooter to come out. Tell them youre worried about your gardener/landscaper getting shocked or electrocuted due to exposed service entrance wires that have no short circuit or overload protection. the liability is on them but you as the homeowner could still be sued

^^^This.

Do whatever you have to do to get the utility out there ASAP.
Maybe tell them your lights flickered this morning and you're not sure if maybe this has something to do with it...

 

[sparky 1971]

Mid American Energy does their own installs, but when something goes wrong with the riser that they installed, they claim innocence and tell the owner to call an electrician. They use schedule 80 PVC, we have to leave a pre-assembled riser for them to install so it's not that the pipe rots out but the whole effing thing comes off the wall or the ruser pulls out of the socket while ripping the threads off of the male adapter when they don't install the cable properly and the dirt settles.

 

[NUTTSGT]

Most PoCo's own everything and responsible from pole and service line to the meter. Anything other than that, it's yours and on you.


Is this service line coming in or going out ?

 

[mm08822]

Mid American Energy does their own installs, but when something goes wrong with the riser that they installed, they claim innocence and tell the owner to call an electrician. They use schedule 80 PVC, we have to leave a pre-assembled riser for them to install so it's not that the pipe rots out but the whole effing thing pulls out of the socket while ripping the threads off of the male adapter when they don't install the cable properly and the dirt settles.

That is exactly how one of the POCOs is playing this game near me. They have sub-contracted out to a company to do the smart meter upgrade/replacements. If that co sees the slightest thing wrong, they flag the service/meter pan and send a nastigram to the account owner stating they have 45 days to get an electrician to correct said deficiencies otherwise they're cutting power. It was the POCO's sub-contractor who did the original install back when the structure was built. They either didn't provide the conductor loop and/or provide conduit to span the backfilled area next to the foundation. (They screwed up)

Meanwhile, POCO requires the POCO to cut out/cut in at xformer pad so work done at the meter pan is dead for underground services. POCO won't re-energize unless inspected.......umm, this is a simple repair folks, to a system that has continually energized. There is no upgrade, or cobwebs from sitting disconnected for some time. The customer must pay for cut out/cut in fee before POCO will schedule. Right now mine has a 5 week schedule backlog. If they cancel the day before b/c of storm damage needed repairs or it is raining, TS for you. Go to the end of the line.

Inspectors don't want to be bothered with this, but if they are bothered(i.e.- permit pulled), then they require the second rod, ISBB, bonds across hwh, boilers, proper clearance in front of meter. No permit = no call in from inspector with approval to energize = no cut-in.

Some sparkies are just doing this repair hot and eliminating all of that BS, but what happens if someone trips the secondary protection? Who gets slapped? Pays for repair service call? How long is the customer out of service? Does this now force a permit? and so on......

Awkward way to do business....either price yourself out of the job doing it correctly or take on exposure that if anything goes wrong, will get your slapped.

 

[mm08822]

Most PoCo's own everything and responsible from pole and service line to the meter. Anything other than that, it's yours and on you.


Is this service line coming in or going out ?

For overhead services, customer ownership is typically starts at the weather head.
For underground services, the meter pan is provided by customer and ownership starts at the meter pan.

At least with the POCOs I know.

Conduit settling can rip the meter pan off the wall or lesser damage. A smart customer could try to fight this and say Your cabling/conduit damaged my meter pan/house. Fix your cabling! But then it's still on the customer to fix their piece and good luck trying to do both at separate times.

 

[mm08822]

My electrician is digging the trench to run the feeder lines from the house to the sub-panel in the new outbuilding. He discovered that the service feed conduit into the meter has deteriorated at ground level to the point where the service lines into the Meter are exposed. Right where our lawn service likes to weed whack. I have put in a request with Oncor (our service provider) to see what needs to be done. According to them they own everything on the service side of the meter base. But there is nothing on their site about who owns the costs for the repair. They have a 48 hour response window so i doubt i will hear anything until next week. Service line is 50 years old. So i guess i shouldn't be surprised. But it still is another hurdle for our outbuilding project.

Working the repair for the service lateral with the install for the new construction is probably the most efficient for all involved. However, like you already said, who foots the bill for the repair? If it was customer damage, then it is easy to to say customer pays. But this is clearly deterioration of conduit due to the weather and soil exposure. Seems like the life cycle of their previous install is at the end of the road.

This could be a simple repair as this conduit may only be several feet long serving as protection to come out of the ground from direct buried conductors such as URD.

 

[txvwnut]

My electrician is digging the trench to run the feeder lines from the house to the sub-panel in the new outbuilding. He discovered that the service feed conduit into the meter has deteriorated at ground level to the point where the service lines into the Meter are exposed. Right where our lawn service likes to weed whack. I have put in a request with Oncor (our service provider) to see what needs to be done. According to them they own everything on the service side of the meter base. But there is nothing on their site about who owns the costs for the repair. They have a 48 hour response window so i doubt i will hear anything until next week. Service line is 50 years old. So i guess i shouldn't be surprised. But it still is another hurdle for our outbuilding project.

Be prepared to have Oncor tell you it's your issue. They will most likely say they are responsible for only the wire and come and remove it so you can replace the pipe and pull new wire for your service.

 

[Codyboy]

this is why i dont like using rigid metal conduit for underground service risers.

sch 80 PVC doesnt rot.... and its damn near impossible for a weed wacker to F! it up

IMPO that is an emergency repair that should be fixed ASAP. I would call them back and ask for a troubleshooter to come out. Tell them youre worried about your gardener/landscaper getting shocked or electrocuted due to exposed service entrance wires that have no short circuit or overload protection. the liability is on them but you as the homeowner could still be sued

just moving that ragged sharp rigid in the wrong direction could slice the conductor insulation, causing bare wire to be exposed and potentially energizing the conduit...

I too agree with it being a "hazard"

But it could be a double edged sword if they come out.

If I were the OP I would make dang sure who is responsible for the repair and not just think , "oh its the POCO responsibility"

I see it mentioned on here a lot that "most places the POCO is responsible" which is far from the truth.
May be true in some places, but I wouldn't say MOST.

The utility i retired from didn't run it and not responsible for it.
It is customer owned.
There were some very old URD installs back in the 60s that were owned by the company. But they phased that **** out with a quickness when they saw the headache it was going to become one day.

The reason I say call first and double edged sword, because if they do come out and are not responsible for it and deem it a hazard, you may be without power until YOU fix it.

 

[Russell_Reid]

I am still waiting on a response. Just for background, this is Texas, which is deregulated. There is a difference between the Power Company, who i buy electric from, and the distribution provider, who transports that electric (yes, i pay .05 transportation charge for each kw/hr i pull down from the grid in addition to my .15 kw/hr electricity charge plus taxes and fees). Oncor is the distribution provider in our area who owns all the distribution lines up to the meter pan. The house was built in 1976. So the underground conduit is that old. I don't think they ran PVC conduit back then. The feeder runs about 75 feet underground to a distro box that i share with my neighbor. The power comes down from the transformer on the pole into the distro box and Tees off between my neighbors house and mine. Then runs underground independently to each meter. So my hope is that we don't have to have the whole buried feeder redone. Since my power is not out, Oncor probably wont consider this an emergency repair. But until i can actually talk to someone i wont know what needs to happen.

 

[mike93lx]

I think I saw some sparks...

 

[mm08822]

If the path for least headaches and time wasting is to have your contractor do the repair simultaneously (and independently) with the new work, then just plan it out that way. Get in , get out, no one needs know anything.

I've spent 3 mos getting jerked around waiting for callbacks and being bounced from one person to another.

 

[Russell_Reid]

Oncor called me this morning. An emergency service ticket has been opened for the repair. No ETA on when. Hopefully it will happen quickly. With the flooding down in the hill country the work crews may be pretty busy.

 

[kbuhagiar]

Oncor called me this morning. An emergency service ticket has been opened for the repair. No ETA on when. Hopefully it will happen quickly. With the flooding down in the hill country the work crews may be pretty busy.

Keep us posted on the outcome/results!

 

[Russell_Reid]

Oncor just showed up. They looked at the service line and said that the insulation is intact so it is not immediately dangerous. They are putting in a work order to have the conduit replaced. Probably wont happen until next week. Told me to just keep the dogs, kids, and lawn guys away from it until its been fixed.

 

[Codyboy]

Thats great! So it is theirs.

I would have told you the same if I showed up to troubleshoot it.
Just keep away from it. It's a bit of a liability but a lot of that depends on the customer and if they seem to have a little common sense about them.

 

[Bert_]

I'd bet that it's EMT.

Like they said, it's not an emergency. A normal work ticket is fine

 

[Russell_Reid]

Yeah the tech said it had a yellow jacket on the neutral. Which indicates direct bury. The conduit is only on the sweep and up to the meter. So it's an easy repair. Probably only be without power for an hour or two. They replace with PVC with a slip joint. Which is good news since our expansive clay soil likes to yank conduit out of the joint to the box.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I'd bet that it's EMT.

Like they said, it's not an emergency. A normal work ticket is fine

if you look at the conduit in the dirt, the wall is too thick to be EMT

 

[Bert_]

if you look at the conduit in the dirt, the wall is too thick to be EMT

I see a ball of rust. Rust swells up a lot thicker than steel. Pretty hard to tell how thick the pipe was.

Maybe it was IMC. The only way rigid pipe rusts like that picture is around fertilizer or manure.

 

[Bert_]

@Russell_Reid

Any way we can get a picture of where that conduit connects to the meter can? Just for curiosity sake.

 

[Russell_Reid]

FYI this is adjacent to the pool filter. About 3ft. Pool was put in '87. I suspect the chlorine has something to do with it.
Ask and ye shall receive.

 

[PCustoms]

FYI this is adjacent to the pool filter. About 3ft. Pool was put in '87. I suspect the chlorine has something to do with it.
Ask and ye shall receive.

I may be mistaken, but that don't look right

 

[Codyboy]

I may be mistaken, but that don't look right

Is that pitting / arcing that has occurred between the lock nut and meter can?
Hard to tell even zoomed in.

 

[PCustoms]

Is that pitting / arcing that has occurred between the lock nut and meter can?
Hard to tell even zoomed in.

I'm trying to figure out how that's setup with the lockring on the outside...

Probably irrelevant as it's on the utility side. Anything goes.

 

[Russell_Reid]

Neither my electrician nor the Oncor tech noticed any arcing around the meter pan. And my electrician had the pan open and the meter removed when he replaced the panel inside the garage a few weeks ago. Yes he contacted Oncor and got approval prior to removing the meter. We replaced the panel as it was over 50 years old, had only 32 spaces and was full. We needed room to add the breakers for the new sub panel in the outbuilding. No I don't need a service upgrade. The existing 200 amp service is plenty for both the house and the outbuilding. Yes house is 100% copper wire 12 awg. My previous house had aluminum wiring. I made sure this one was copper when we bought it.

 

[yatg]

I'm trying to figure out how that's setup with the lockring on the outside...

There's no shoulder on the pipe to push up against the box like a pvc adapter, so you put a locking ring on the outside of the pipe, and another on the inside to sandwich it to the box.

You could put a coupler on the outside, then a close ****** and locking ring on the inside, but its extra parts to accomplish the same thing.

 

[mm08822]

I may be mistaken, but that don't look right

It's fine. Worst case, locknut could have been driven tighter.

 

[mm08822]

Is that pitting / arcing that has occurred between the lock nut and meter can?
Hard to tell even zoomed in.

All I see is a few decades of dust....no pitting.

 

[mm08822]

Neither my electrician nor the Oncor tech noticed any arcing around the meter pan. And my electrician had the pan open and the meter removed when he replaced the panel inside the garage a few weeks ago. Yes he contacted Oncor and got approval prior to removing the meter. We replaced the panel as it was over 50 years old, had only 32 spaces and was full. We needed room to add the breakers for the new sub panel in the outbuilding. No I don't need a service upgrade. The existing 200 amp service is plenty for both the house and the outbuilding. Yes house is 100% copper wire 12 awg. My previous house had aluminum wiring. I made sure this one was copper when we bought it.

2" PVC schedule 80, sweep and slip joint back into same meter pan and it's all done. Might be easiest to remove meter pan to manage old/new conduits.

 

[Bert_]

I may be mistaken, but that don't look right

That's how you install threaded conduit. Locknut on the outside and a locknut on the inside.

 

[Bert_]

FYI this is adjacent to the pool filter. About 3ft. Pool was put in '87. I suspect the chlorine has something to do with it.
Ask and ye shall receive.

Chlorine would do it!

 

[PCustoms]

That's how you install threaded conduit. Locknut on the outside and a locknut on the inside.

Yes, this was already answered

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I see a ball of rust. Rust swells up a lot thicker than steel. Pretty hard to tell how thick the pipe was.

Maybe it was IMC. The only way rigid pipe rusts like that picture is around fertilizer or manure.

So looks like its IMC or rigid like i thought.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Is that pitting / arcing that has occurred between the lock nut and meter can?
Hard to tell even zoomed in.

I dont see any pitting or signs of arcing

What are you referring to?

 

[reader2580]

Mid American Energy does their own installs, but when something goes wrong with the riser that they installed, they claim innocence and tell the owner to call an electrician. They use schedule 80 PVC, we have to leave a pre-assembled riser for them to install so it's not that the pipe rots out but the whole effing thing comes off the wall or the ruser pulls out of the socket while ripping the threads off of the male adapter when they don't install the cable properly and the dirt settles.

The local CO-OP requires the customer supply the conduit for the riser from the grouond to the meter. They also require a slip meter riser to try to stop the issue of ground settlement ripping the conduit from the meter socket.

 

[Bert_]

So looks like its IMC or rigid like i thought.

Do you regularly see rigid rust out like that?

 

[alfredeneuman]

2" PVC schedule 80, sweep and slip joint back into same meter pan and it's all done.

At any rate the POCO will need to replace the cable.

 

[dscheidt]

Do you regularly see rigid rust out like that?

I've seen it on farms and around pools. Once the galvanizing is worn off or damaged, it will rust under the zinc. Some soils are apparently caustic enough to attack it, too, but not anywhere i've been.