Above 1200 Sq/FT Freshy Fresh - Mountain High Workshop and Storage: 48x30

[badonk]

We closed on our property a year ago. Construction started a couple months later (waiting for engineering and permits).
The house is in the drywall stage. I hope our drywall to move in isn't seven months!

I have a reasonably detailed schedule from my builder that they've used on other projects. I also thought I wouldn't need 7 months post drywall but when I look it over it mostly adds up? I've looked through dependencies as well hoping to shave time but haven't found much. I'll throw out the big ones (interior only) that seem to drive the timing...post drywall. Hope this helps you think about what else has to be done, how long it might take, and how it is sequenced. If I finish drywall in late July:

Bathroom tile install: 8/5-9/8: 15 days
Floor install (almost all tile): 9/16-9/29: 10 days
Woodworking and cabinet install: 9/30-10/27: 25 days <--this could be less but we have a LOT of cabinets
Counter install: 10/28-11/3: 5 days
Interior painting: 10/28-12/08: 30 days <--pretty much one color for interior paint, could this move faster?
Plumbing/Electrical Trim: 12/9-1/2: 19 days
Heating/HVAC/Low voltage Trim: 12/16-12/29: 10 days
Final inspections: 1/5-1/19: 11 days
Punch list work: 1/20-2/2: 10 days

 

[ericm]

That was really helpful and yet also depressing. The numbers sound reasonable to me too. It does seem like some of that could be done at the same time but also I know crews don't like it when there's someone else in there getting in the way. Plus each sub's got their own schedule.

 

[Xti04]

5 days for counter top install seems like a lot. 30 days to paint a house inside and out or just interior?

 

[badonk]

5 days for counter top install seems like a lot. 30 days to paint a house inside and out or just interior?

Agree on both. I can't imagine painting for 30 days and will ask for more clarification. For counters, that's probably just a block of time and shaving a few days off really doesn't impact the 7 months.

 

[Boostingaz]

Total sqft being painted ? Are they spraying and back rolling or all brush and roll only ? Do they spray or roll the ceilings ?

Since they are going to have the floors and everything done that's a lot of prep and masking. It still should have been a little quicker I would say but that's also not crazy unreasonable.

We painted in stages. All the cabinet walls were painted before cabinets even went in. Then ceilings sprayed, then all the trim and walls were sprayed before floors went in so there was very little masking. The whole house was painted by the time floors were even stared and they just came back and touched up as need be afterwords.

Maybe ask if the painters can come before the flooring guys that should save some time. They will be able to spray the trim with zero masking. Then all they have to do is mask the trim to spay the walls.

Our house was 3500 sqft plus a 1200 sqft attached garage and it was painted in maybe 2 weeks if I remember correctly. Trim was a different color than the doors. So we had three colors. Trim, doors and walls. There was only 4 of them.

 

[badonk]

Total sqft being painted ? Are they spraying and back rolling or all brush and roll only ? Do they spray or roll the ceilings ?

Since they are going to have the floors and everything done that's a lot of prep and masking. It still should have been a little quicker I would say but that's also not crazy unreasonable.

Nicely done - looks like it came out great. I'm not sure how they are painting - rollers or spray. From other work my builder has delivered, I sense they hold the subs to a pretty high standard. Drywall finish in the house is planned to be level 4. I'm supposed to see a sample of that along with 3 on Friday. I'd like to save a little with level 3 if I can't tell the difference. Either way it's all probably nicer than any house I've ever owned. We'll go to a lower standard (3?) in the shop/garage. The house interior is ~5000 sq ft. Garage/shop is 1856 interior, 2000 gross/shell. I suppose the size of the project also drives the timeline. We had two framing crews working to keep things moving quicker. Maybe we can do the same with painting to speed things along.

The sub I'm using put the following in the bid.

Interior
- Walls: One coat of primer and two coats of low-sheen eggshell paint.
- Ceilings: One coat of primer and two coats of flat paint.
- Trim Work (baseboards, casing, sills, etc.): Two coats of primer and two coats of paint.
- Interior Doors: Paint Grade

Painted trim
- Nail holes filled and crevices caulked.
- Two coats of primer applied (with sanding in between).
- Dings and imperfections repaired between primer coats
- Two coats of primer applied (with sanding in between).
- Two coats of paint applied

 

[Boostingaz]

Nicely done - looks like it came out great. I'm not sure how they are painting - rollers or spray. From other work my builder has delivered, I sense they hold the subs to a pretty high standard. Drywall finish in the house is planned to be level 4. I'm supposed to see a sample of that along with 3 on Friday. I'd like to save a little with level 3 if I can't tell the difference. Either way it's all probably nicer than any house I've ever owned. We'll go to a lower standard (3?) in the shop/garage. The house interior is ~5000 sq ft. Garage/shop is 1856 interior, 2000 gross/shell. I suppose the size of the project also drives the timeline. We had two framing crews working to keep things moving quicker. Maybe we can do the same with painting to speed things along.

The sub I'm using put the following in the bid.

Interior
- Walls: One coat of primer and two coats of low-sheen eggshell paint.
- Ceilings: One coat of primer and two coats of flat paint.
- Trim Work (baseboards, casing, sills, etc.): Two coats of primer and two coats of paint.
- Interior Doors: Paint Grade

Painted trim
- Nail holes filled and crevices caulked.
- Two coats of primer applied (with sanding in between).
- Dings and imperfections repaired between primer coats
- Two coats of primer applied (with sanding in between).
- Two coats of paint applied

That makes more sense on the time quoted. That's a lot of work a very detailed so that's good. Most of the time you are lucky to get 1 primer and a finished coat and they will do all their prep (filling and caulking, sanding) before all that happens. So not unreasonable at all considering the dry times and such between.

My best friend owns the painting company that painted our house so I know it was a "priority" so our timeline was most likely a little less than a normal job.

 

[Boostingaz]

Nicely done - looks like it came out great. I'm not sure how they are painting - rollers or spray. From other work my builder has delivered, I sense they hold the subs to a pretty high standard. Drywall finish in the house is planned to be level 4. I'm supposed to see a sample of that along with 3 on Friday. I'd like to save a little with level 3 if I can't tell the difference. Either way it's all probably nicer than any house I've ever owned. We'll go to a lower standard (3?) in the shop/garage. The house interior is ~5000 sq ft. Garage/shop is 1856 interior, 2000 gross/shell. I suppose the size of the project also drives the timeline. We had two framing crews working to keep things moving quicker. Maybe we can do the same with painting to speed things along.

The sub I'm using put the following in the bid.

Interior
- Walls: One coat of primer and two coats of low-sheen eggshell paint.
- Ceilings: One coat of primer and two coats of flat paint.
- Trim Work (baseboards, casing, sills, etc.): Two coats of primer and two coats of paint.
- Interior Doors: Paint Grade

Painted trim
- Nail holes filled and crevices caulked.
- Two coats of primer applied (with sanding in between).
- Dings and imperfections repaired between primer coats
- Two coats of primer applied (with sanding in between).
- Two coats of paint applied

You may also be able to save a little by getting with the painting crew and asking for extra prep. We did a lower level finish and my painter went around the whole house and filled imperfections and re-skimmed areas etc before painting to make the drywall finish better, and paying him and his crew was cheaper than paying the drywall guy for the higher finish level.

 

[Boostingaz]

Do you know what kind of paint they are using?

 

[badonk]

Do you know what kind of paint they are using?

No, haven't discussed that yet (or even specified a color).

 

[Boostingaz]

No, haven't discussed that yet (or even specified a color).

I'd shoot for Sherwin Williams Eminence for the ceiling, Emerald for the Trim and Duration for the walls.

Just out of curiosity what is the total quote for the project? We used all the SW products and I think our total bill was somewhere between 26-30k. That was for both interior and exterior. Exterior was all SW Duration.

 

[badonk]

Quite a

I'd shoot for Sherwin Williams Eminence for the ceiling, Emerald for the Trim and Duration for the walls.

Just out of curiosity what is the total quote for the project? We used all the SW products and I think our total bill was somewhere between 26-30k. That was for both interior and exterior. Exterior was all SW Duration.

Quite a bit more. ~$50K for interior only. And that was the least expensive bid which I don't always go with. I have used those Sherman Williams products on my current house and it's been great.

 

[Boostingaz]

Quite a

Quite a bit more. ~$50K for interior only. And that was the least expensive bid which I don't always go with. I have used those Sherman Williams products on my current house and it's been great.

I think I saw your is combined somehow? That was house only and then the shop 56x56 matching stick build was another 10 or so. So total project was probably around 40 but that was interior and exterior of both.

 

[badonk]

Wow, stunning house! Very clean look with tons of garage space. The drone shots at sunset are incredible.

Yeah for me the same painter does the interior and exterior. The exterior is stained cedar. It will be pre stained, then installed (tongue and groove), then a final coat goes on. The entire workshop though is a stone exterior. And much of the lower level is covered in stone so the stained wood is mostly on the main floor exterior walls of the house. Then of course different colors for soffits etc, which the painter also does. And also, some exterior treatment around the windows that my builder is working on. I’m not sure I understand it yet but we’ll talk about the concept in a walkthrough tomorrow.

In other news we had a visitor last night when it was raining/snowing. I assume someone let their dog out because they didn’t want to go out in the rain themselves.

 

[Xti04]

Wow, stunning house! Very clean look with tons of garage space. The drone shots at sunset are incredible.

Yeah for me the same painter does the interior and exterior. The exterior is stained cedar. It will be pre stained, then installed (tongue and groove), then a final coat goes on. The entire workshop though is a stone exterior. And much of the lower level is covered in stone so the stained wood is mostly on the main floor exterior walls of the house. Then of course different colors for soffits etc, which the painter also does. And also, some exterior treatment around the windows that my builder is working on. I’m not sure I understand it yet but we’ll talk about the concept in a walkthrough tomorrow.

In other news we had a visitor last night when it was raining/snowing. I assume someone let their dog out because they didn’t want to go out in the rain themselves.

Thats a hell of a dog! Looks more like a bear to me!

 

[badonk]

Thats a hell of a dog! Looks more like a bear to me!

We have a winner ding ding ding! Must be lookin for huney or pikinik baskets…or something like that.

 

[badonk]

We had a good walk through on Friday. Most of the light cans are placed along with outlets. Next week they start pulling wires. Siding started going up as the crew was ready. It is cedar that we are pre-staining. Stone should be arriving soon and once we put stone on the chimneys, we have roofing on site ready to go on. Charcoal grey roof. Light grey siding. Dark grey stone.

 

[Boostingaz]

We had a good walk through on Friday. Mnost of the light cans are placed along with outlets. Next week they start pulling wires. Siding started going up as the crew was ready. It is cedar that we are pre-staining. Stone should be arriving soon and once we put stone on the chimneys, we have roofing on site ready to go on. Charcoal grey roof. Light grey siding. Dark grey stone.

Beautiful so far. Can't wait to see it done!

 

[badonk]

Weekly update:

More of the siding is going in and it is mostly done. Scaffolding has arrived to start with the stone work - see the stack of it in the foreground. The stone will be a dark veneer, covering the chimneys, concrete foundation and lower floor. The boxy section between the two rooflines will be weather corten steel - kind of a rusty look. We also had a little misunderstanding on the fireplace vents and the chimney. We're picking out a chimney shroud to cover up that vent sticking up, ideally also covering in the same stone veneer. It feels early for this but two of the fireplaces are installed.



Example of the stone going on the outside of the house. It also covers all exterior walls on the shop.


Chimney shroud style that we can hopefully do with the same stone veneer.

 

[badonk]

Progress continues, an inch at a time it seems. With siding going up it is starting to look more like a house. The exterior doors are onsite and ready to be installed too. Rough-ins are just about done. The ethernet and alarm system wiring is going in now, then comes the fire suppression system. We're at the point of having our structural/framing, electrical and plumbing inspections completed. After that, the radiant heat tubes go down on the main floor, the boiler is fired up for the first time to test the system, then the l/w concrete gets poured. Insulation goes in and then we hit July and start drywalling.

All the finishes are chosen/locked in. My wife is finalizing light fixtures, etc and we've started placing orders for some furniture (dining room table).

I'm still contemplating the layout of the finished workshop and what I can afford to do before I move in, vs what I'll do on my own over time later. It'll probably just be the two lifts, maybe the compressor. I have the compressor centrally located along the back wall so it would be pretty simple to just have it hooked to a retractable 50' hose reel. No need to run air lines around the shop walls and having different places to plug in a tool. Then for cabinets, benches and tool boxes, I'll work that out later. I've had decent luck with the NewAge stuff in the past. The plan is to have that along the perimeter walls of the working part of the shop. And some pallet storage racks along the back wall of the storage side - mostly for off-season wheels storage. Thoughts?



Working on final grading


2 post lift side of shop floor, ~10 ft opening. The shop is a nice staging area for things...


Hose bibs - with hot and cold

 

[kwyjibo]

The New Age cabinets seemed to be good quality for the price - and as long as you find the combinations that you want from them, the price at Costco was unbeatable. I installed them in Michael's ManCave garage. One of the other bakery guys filled his garage with Moduline (iirc). I'm sure he'd let you check out his setup but to me It kinda seemed like overkill

which reminds me - let me know the next time youre cruising by, I have something for you

 

[badonk]

The New Age cabinets seemed to be good quality for the price - and as long as you find the combinations that you want from them, the price at Costco was unbeatable. I installed them in Michael's ManCave garage. One of the other bakery guys filled his garage with Moduline (iirc). I'm sure he'd let you check out his setup but to me It kinda seemed like overkill

which reminds me - let me know the next time youre cruising by, I have something for you

Yeah I did the newage from costco in my garage at home. It works fine although some of it was damaged in transit. They were great about sending replacements and some lucky people picked up the bent ones and got a killer deal (free?).

And sweet! I’m planning to be at the meetup tomorrow…

Down at the old shop today knocking out lots of little things on the cars as well as helping a friend change oil on his e36 m3.

 

[cccoltsicehockey]

Property is coming along great.

As far as tire storage goes, I guess it depends on how many sets you are trying to store. I am a bit of a wheel ***** and went with an entire wall size rack.

I have one of these. https://www.carguygarage.com/storag...fAnf4376VlhOOEqoTHGwzB_j8Y4vADRWeyENgek&gQT=1

I think they are supposed to only be for storing tires, but I can assure you I have very few spare tires on it and mostly full sets of wheels and it has been going strong for about 8 years now. I think I currently have 7 sets of wheels on it.

 

[badonk]

Property is coming along great.

As far as tire storage goes, I guess it depends on how many sets you are trying to store. I am a bit of a wheel ***** and went with an entire wall size rack.

I have one of these. https://www.carguygarage.com/storag...fAnf4376VlhOOEqoTHGwzB_j8Y4vADRWeyENgek&gQT=1

I think they are supposed to only be for storing tires, but I can assure you I have very few spare tires on it and mostly full sets of wheels and it has been going strong for about 8 years now. I think I currently have 7 sets of wheels on it.

Good recommendation. I'm planning for 2 sets of wheels for 4 cars (summer and winter). So 16 wheels, with room to grow. I have more than that right now but plan to clear out a few sets...ideally I'd have some racks that can store wheels or other large/heavy things. I was leaning towards pallett racks. I have a friend that runs into used sets often and hopefully comes across a set in the next 6 months.

I may skip the NewAge stuff entirely for cabinets, benches, etc - still unsure. As @kwyjibo mentioned, they are a good value in the costco packages but sometimes those come with extras that I may not need. For a toolbox, the US General (56"?) from HF looks hard to beat. Keeping it simple, then some craftsman or husky tall cabinets for storing aerosol cans, oil, spray bottles, etc etc etc. Then simple benches as work station zones with work surfaces to mount benchtop tools like buffers, grinders, vise, and drill press. I just started a shopping list for tools...fun!

 

[badonk]

We are still waiting on the fire suppression system before we wrap up rough ins and move on to insulation and drywall. In the meantime, the last fireplace was installed, the radiant tubes were installed on the main floor and gypcrete poured. It looks so nice! Stone continues to go up on the outside as well as some of the roofing. And I think we are done with mud...

On this trip, I saw the wiring in the shop for the first time. My electrician thinks 9 strip lights will be plenty and his advice so far has been spot on. He also wired every shop outlet at 20 amp - I only thought to ask because most good electric pressure washers will trip a 15 amp circuit when using a foam cannon. Then 3 x 220v 50 amp breakers to run the two lifts and an air compressor. I'm still all over the place on what tools I'll go with...which may only get added 12+ months out after the bank account recovers a bit. But for now I think a starter kit from Tekton will cover the major hand tools. Throw those in a US General or Husky HD or Craftsman box. If I really want customized organization, get some Shadowfoam and start cutting. Aside from the lifts and floor on day 1, its going to take me a while to get it outfitted and usable.

The constant rain has the driller a few weeks behind - so no well yet. I'll talk to my builder about the right time to finish the driveway (asphault) and pour the outdoor concrete pads. I'm planning approx 30x60 concrete pad outside the workshop.

 

[gearhead1960]

You might want to consider upping the number of 220v receptacles for those welders you know you will need…..

 

[badonk]

You might want to consider upping the number of 220v receptacles for those welders you know you will need…

Yep good idea for sure - we thought about that and ran wiring to one more outlet that I could convert to 220 in the future. My mig runs on 110v and looking at some of the newer multi-purpose (mig/tig/plasma cutter) I see many also run off 110v or 220v.

Circled in green are the two electrical runs for the lifts. Red is the one for the compressor. And in blue you might be able to see the black wiring going to it. That one I'll run 110v for now but have the provision to go to 220v by changing the breaker, etc.

 

[Xti04]

I also wire all my 220v outlets to the same plug as my welder to give me options on where to plug in. I can swap my lift plug and plug in there or use my compressor plug if I need to be closer to the shop door area. So far my Eastwood 180 has ran great off 110 but should I need the extra amperage its available around the shop.

 

[jake28]

Should you or a future owner ever want an electric car or PHEV, I highly recommend a 50a (or ideally 60a) circuit accessible for a charger in a logical parking spot.

 

[badonk]

Should you or a future owner ever want an electric car or PHEV, I highly recommend a 50a (or ideally 60a) circuit accessible for a charger in a logical parking spot.

Yes totally agree. Having an EV charging station is actually a code requirement up there now - so that is going into the main garage (not the shop).

Latest update: we are stalled a little while the fire sprinkler system goes in...waiting for the crew. We have a design finalized so we can start insulating the spaces where that system isn't going.

We installed more steel this week for the deck off the living room. Then a steel trellis gets installed above that. We are also working with a local welder to build a chimney cap. I'm not sure how someone (builder, architect) thought that it was ok to have fireplace vents sticking up like that. It just looks sloppy and unfinished to me. I mean - there IS a chimney but I guess that is just cosmetic and it doesn't meet code requirements for fire resistance, etc. Hopefully that comes together soon, the masons can get up there to cover the chimney, then the roofers can finish.

In other news I was planning some outside heaters for a few spaces - the outdoor dining area and the deck, above and below. My builder started suggesting electric ones and as that started looking more and more complicated (expensive!), I opted to have a few gas lines run to those locations and I'll buy a few portable gas heaters. Yeah, they might not be quite as effective but I can put them into storage when not being used, reducing the bad weather exposure.

I think the fire sprinkler delay puts us 2+ weeks behind schedule. Insulation should have been finished with drywall starting about now. And I was hoping we could be smart, move fast, and get done before christmas.

 

[badonk]

Almost a month since my last update and we are about ready to start drywall with stacks of sheet rock staged all over the place. The insulation is just about done - just need to get the interior walls insulated. The fire suppression is the delay - they ran some of the pipe but dont have it all connected etc. I'm told it should take just a day or two to finish up. I think the shop is ready so they may start there. And we finally drilled the well. Kind of important...still sorting out the final plan for fiber/internet.

 

[Nolift911]

Nice! Just got caught up - moving swiftly! Will be nice to walk through when I head out later this fall. Woefully behind updating my thread and the disaster that ensued this weekend -

 

[badonk]

Drywall continues. A little video of the shop from two weeks ago...will see if this video link works. Nothing spectacular but it IS progress. Need to find out from my builder when he needs lifts on site for installation. I assume that's at the very end after the epoxy goes down on the floor.

Was there yesterday walking through final grading and landscape ideas. A spruce tree here for some privacy, natural grasses and wildflowers there, a retaining wall over there to help with drainage, etc. Not looking forward to the quote...

 

[jake28]

Kudos on the progress. The shift from studs to drywall is so rewarding: it starts to feel very real, and closer to “home” than “project.” Unfortunately now it slows down again as mudding and sanding and trim and paint seems to take forever

 

[badonk]

Kudos on the progress. The shift from studs to drywall is so rewarding: it starts to feel very real, and closer to “home” than “project.” Unfortunately now it slows down again as mudding and sanding and trim and paint seems to take forever

Yesterday they had all the paper down on the floors to help make cleanup easier...mudding starts on Monday. I'm doing a budget and schedule review next week just to nail everything down as we push to the finish. In the next few weeks the wife and I will try to pick out and get orders in for all the furniture.

A couple weeks back I ordered much of the wifi and security camera gear just to rack it up and test at home. I nerd out on that so I designed my own setup with Ubiquiti gear. I'm doing a fiber run from the house to the shop and will have an 8 port 2.5gbe switch there to run the access point and two cameras - one inside the shop keeping overwatch and one outside. So I'm keeping busy while I wait.

 

[moab11]

I'm very interested to see what you put together for your network gear!
I'm a ubiquiti fan as well, sounds like you are going for an impressive setup.

 

[badonk]

I'm very interested to see what you put together for your network gear!
I'm a ubiquiti fan as well, sounds like you are going for an impressive setup.

Here's the rundown on the hardware and general layout. My land has fiber running to the house, so we'll have Xfinity out there shortly to connect things up. I'll use their gateway device but disable as much as possible from the console (wifi, etc).

That will connect up to a Dream Machine Pro as my Ubiquiti cloud gateway. I'll run the Unifi IDS/IPS security configs along with a number of VLANS (Guest, IoT, Cams, etc). I'll use SFP+ to connect the UDM to a Pro HD 24 PoE switch at 10G. I have Cat6 wiring around the house, with those terminating to a 24 port keystone patch panel. This switch will support up to 2.5 GbE to each line along with PoE++. Plenty of room to grow.

I'll have 5 U7 Pro XG access points around the house (3 on the main floor, one in the basement, 1 in the workshop)...I was planning for U7 Pro but the XG just came out and was only $10 more each. The big difference with the XG is it supports a 10G uplink vs the U7 Pro is only 2.5GbE. I'll also use their G4 Doorbell Pro (who's ringing my door anyways?) along with other cameras keeping a lookout around outside of the house. The UDM will serve up NVR storage with an 8TB drive in it. That should hold 30 days of video.

I plan to run a fiber line from the Pro HD 24 switch in the utility room out to the workshop, where I'll have a Flex 2.5G PoE to handle switching and power for the wifi and cameras on that building. My subcontractor doesn't like the idea of running Cat6E outside in the ground - worried about lightning strikes? He suggested fiber would be about the same cost wise. Inside the shop and the daily garage I'll have either a dome or turret style camera on the ceiling at the back facing the garage doors. In the shop the only real data needs I have are for the cameras, so I likely could have put an access point in mesh mode and been ok. But since I'm building from scratch...

All in it is about $4K in Ubiquiti camera and network gear which in the grand scheme of things feels like a rounding error.

Ubiquiti has soon cool design tools that I used to spec some of this out, simulating wifi strength, camera coverage, etc. When I get home tonight I'll try to remember to take some screenshots and add them for those not familiar with it.

I could clearly go on forever. Some people would just throw eero or netgear stuff in and be done with it. And it might work great for them. It is in my nature to tinker with this stuff. I also have a Home Assistant running at my current house - plan to do the same on this house to integrate and manage all my tech.

 

[ericm]

If the cameras are on a separate VLAN how do you access them from the main VLAN? I'm figuring out a system for my new house and shop and was thinking about this problem.

 

[badonk]

If the cameras are on a separate VLAN how do you access them from the main VLAN? I'm figuring out a system for my new house and shop and was thinking about this problem.

That's all configurable in the firewall/zone rules where you can allow and block traffic between VLANs, even having exceptions for certain devices. I will have to ensure the cameras VLAN can talk to the UDM to record. But the cameras won't be able to send or receive any internet traffic. In January they updated their firewall rule mgmt with a zone based system to simplify it a bit and make things like this really easy. Of course you can get into the details too and write your own firewall rules if needed.

 

[cccoltsicehockey]

Sounds like a solid setup. I love my Ubiquiti setup. You seem to have managed to keep the nerding out to a minimum. I know I went way overboard with cameras but love the 360 property coverage and then some.

Are you going to use just the single drive in the UDM or are you going to instead use an actual NVR? The NVR would give you drive redudancy and also you would be able to put the video storage and cameras all on the same VLan and then you only have to allow the traffic for viewing/managing and not the actual camera data through the seperate VLans.

I can't believe you actually totaled up your order. I didn't want to know