I don't understand how contractors make any money.

[Russell_Reid]

Begin rant:
My outbuilding project has been going on since February. Took until May to get permits. Construction started June 1. Every contractor except for the building shell team has come out, done some work for a day, then leaves for a couple of days. We are near the end and getting ready for final inspection and it has gotten worse. Plumbing was supposed to show up 3 times over the last week and no showed. Finally showed up yesterday late afternoon and was here 45 minutes and left. Only installed 5 out of 7 shutoff valves. All he has left to do is install the valves, toilet, bath sink, and water heater. The utility sink in the shop is just stubbed out for now. He is supposed to come back today. We will see if he finishes or leaves again.
Electrician is the same way. His work is great but the only thing he got done in a full two days was rough-in. Every other time he came out he did 3 hours and left for a day or more. Took two weeks to install receptacles, switches, and light fixtures. He had to reorder the feeder wires twice. First time it was the wrong wire. Second time the wire was too short. Couldn't terminate the panel as he didn't have the breakers. Left yesterday still 1 breaker short. Left all the receptacle covers off in the shop. Still no welding receptacle.
I could go on but you get the drift. All contractors were hired through my PM. All contractors are flat fee. All still have a final payment due so are still owed money. I can't imagine that they are making much money anymore. The travel time alone must be eating up hours. Nothing about the building has changed design wise. How can they show up without all the components they need? It was easy for me to count how many circuits, receptacles, switches, valves etc from the plans. I provided the light fixtures, toilet, sink, and water heater. All by the requested date, which was weeks ago.
I know my project is a small job. But wouldn't that be more incentive to just get it done rather than drag it out day after day? My PM keeps telling me it will be done by end of August. But he is paid hourly. So every time I email, text, or call it costs me 15 minutes. Site visits are time and travel.
I am just very frustrated. I don't understand how they can work like this. I just want the project done and finaled so we can start doing our work on the building.
Am I being unreasonable?

 

[PCustoms]

If contract spells out end of August completion you will just be frustrated micro analyzing everything until that date comes.

If the PM is charging you for every email or text, stop reaching out so much.

On 9/1 if it's not done you can complain

 

[LOW1]

So you are 90 days in to actual building, everyone is still working (but slowly) , there are no work quality issues and the tradespeople are dealing with the final details and have not been fully paid.

IMHO on the scale of construction problems you are in pretty good shape.

Yes it might be more efficient to get your job done but perhaps there are other projects that need their attention more? And their are vacations, family matters, etc that come up.

Perhaps send a few polite emails asking that the work get done.

Other than that I would let it work itself out for another 30 days.

 

[yellowbox]

oh they make bank , they got a 100 jobs going on and write off whatever they can

 

[niget2002]

End of August finish date means they have until the end of August. At least you see them making progress.

What will end up happening is all of them will be in there the last week trying to finish everything on top of each other.

 

[MovingAlong]

Had some insurance work done once, they required 3rd party contractors do the work. Took them a long time too for a small job - couple months. Small crew, maybe six guys, but only one or two worked on my job at a time, maybe 2-4 hrs per week.

Talking with one of the guys, he explained to me how that business was run. To keep everyone busy, to stay productive all the time, they had 40-60 projects running at any one time. That covers for equipment breakdowns, suppliers running late, guy get's sick or takes vacation, etc... PM was hustling and good at his job.

But yeah, if you're contract says end of August, take the missus out to dinner and talk about how happy you are to have someone else working for you. About how nice it was to have that extra time to help her maintain the garden, to take her out grocery shopping while helping around the house.

Focus on the positives of why you hired the work out in the first place.

 

[MovingAlong]

Begin rant:
...
Am I being unreasonable?

Maybe a little... But we've all been there and you're among friends here.

 

[shoot summ]

I did a patio roof add on a couple of years ago, first time I have ever contracted a job to someone else. It was an eye opener, hate to broad brush the entire industry by my experience, but it sure seems like there is a lot of room for improvement.

My general categorization:

Contractor - hair on fire everyday, stretched between selling the next job and trying to get the current job back on track. Always very good at apologizing but would rather have a pissed off customer than piss the subs off. Over orders everything, better than sending his main guy to get additional, either adds the leftover to his stock, or throws it away.

Contractor's main guy - always says "this looks great", super nice guy, wants everyone to like him, doesn't notice important details, trying not to piss off the subs.

Subs - widest range of goodness-craziness, some show up early, stay late, focus on getting the job done and getting paid. Others have interesting work schedules, show up at noon, go to get "materials", gone for a couple of days, rinse and repeat. Getting the job done has a lot of different meanings, sometimes correctly isn't a requirement. Trash is not their problem, once they drop it, they no longer have any responsibility for it. Some would rather come back 10 times to fix it than do it right the first time. Efficient use of materials is not their problem, if you need another piece of something, just get the next new one out of the stack, remember, the piece you just dropped in now trash and not your problem. Looking for the next reason to be pissed at the contractor, thinks the customer is stupid and picky. When do I get paid?

Project Manager - doesn't exist, Contractor is "doing it", doesn't want to piss the subs off so won't schedule tight, each part is now an event, not a process.

Billing - Contractor is "doing it", guys go to HD for hardware and to replace their small compressor. Customer billed for hardware and small compressor, plus the agreed upon GC uplift.

This was one small example, masonry guys, did outstanding work on fireplace and columns, group of hispanic guys that worked their asses off, here early stay late, decent clean up every day. Didn't leave the jobsite for lunch, brought a microwave to heat their lunch. Current owner uses the former owner's nephew for brick work, Caucasian guy seems like a tweaker. Just needed to fill in a doorway and add a ledge for a window.

 

[Wubicon]

To keep everyone busy, to stay productive all the time, they had 40-60 projects running at any one time. That covers for equipment breakdowns, suppliers running late, guy get's sick or takes vacation, etc... PM was hustling and good at his job.

I was watching a video describing how every other industry has gotten exponentially more efficient, except construction. Where it has possibly gotten worse. The video author compared building construction to the automotive industry. Interesting stuff.

 

[MovingAlong]

... but would rather have a pissed off customer than piss the subs off.

Subs can make or break his livelihood... the customer, just that one job.

 

[jblnut]

I guess I’ve been lucky up here. The contractors I’ve partnered with in the past have shown up on time and stayed until they’re done unless a communicated emergency came up. I don’t remember the last time someone came and worked here for a few hours and left before the job was done.

That being said, I’m not in the habit of babysitting grown people. They have things pulling them every direction just like we do so if they need to leave early one day for who cares what they do. Everyone I deal with is paid at the end of the project. That is communicated up front and has only once had to be used as leverage when a new to us plumber said he couldn’t finish the job due to being too busy. “Materials paid upon install and labor paid upon work completion” right there in the contract we both signed. It was a small job totaling less than $5k in materials and labor and he walked away. Shocked me but my electrician (a cousin) said he’s seen the guy do it a few times before. I reached out and told him I wasn’t in a crazy hurry and he came back in two weeks and finished up in a couple hours and we had a few beers while he laid out all the issues he’s been having with workers, insurance and supply houses. He’s still my plumber to this day now and is here within a day or two every time I need something.

OP - just make sure that 8-31 date is solid enough for you to use it as leverage before telling contractors nasty things when they don’t make the date. Hold payments until they finish, don’t cave in to make them go away if they get crabby and give you a story before they’re done.

 

[Russell_Reid]

I get it. And I probably am being a jerk. But I had my water heater replaced last year. Plumber (not the same one) came out, did the job in a day. Even though he had to remove the old one full because it wouldn't drain. Had my roof replaced this May. Roofer ripped off the old and put in the new in a day. And my roof is big and complex. Other homes in the neighborhood had roofs replaced too. Some, like mine, were done in a day. Others took 2-3.
Seems like the home repair contractors are prepared, equipped and stocked to get it done. But the build contractors wing it. I think the biggest pain is when they tell me ' Be there on Tuesday' then no show for two days, then show up unannounced, work for a couple hours, then disappear again. They ask me to provide something by a given date and I do it. The same does not appear to be true. I am looking out the window at 100k of building, that I will be paying for 20 years on that I still can't use.

 

[Codyboy]

oh they make bank , they got a 100 jobs going on and write off whatever they can

This.
OP your job is not the only job they are working on.
The days they're not at your place they're at another.
It's frustrating on your end for sure, I've been there.

 

[Jazz1]

My neighbour bought lakefront property here in the city last year,,,no progress on building because he cannot find a reliable contractor to dedicate the time to build a home in a timely fashion
the home he lives in was built by 2 carpenters who were there daily until completion and they also referred to him the plumbers , electricIan’s as required,, the carpenters have since retired

 

[shoot summ]

Subs can make or break his livelihood... the customer, just that one job.

And you see that fear from him every single day. It's a chicken and egg thing, bad work and poor reviews can break his livelihood as well. Especially these days when reviews are at your fingertips.

 

[aka Larry]

I get it. And I probably am being a jerk. But I had my water heater replaced last year. Plumber (not the same one) came out, did the job in a day. Even though he had to remove the old one full because it wouldn't drain. Had my roof replaced this May. Roofer ripped off the old and put in the new in a day. And my roof is big and complex. Other homes in the neighborhood had roofs replaced too. Some, like mine, were done in a day. Others took 2-3.
Seems like the home repair contractors are prepared, equipped and stocked to get it done. But the build contractors wing it. I think the biggest pain is when they tell me ' Be there on Tuesday' then no show for two days, then show up unannounced, work for a couple hours, then disappear again. They ask me to provide something by a given date and I do it. The same does not appear to be true. I am looking out the window at 100k of building, that I will be paying for 20 years on that I still can't use.

Sounds very familiar.

I had the roof replaced on my house two years ago. The crew showed up at 7:00am and when I got home at 5:00pm they were done, cleaned up, and they left with a check.

When the three man crew came to erect my 40x40 metal shop, it was July 4th weekend. Even though it was hot as f*ck that weekend, they worked from sun up to past dark for three days straight until they got it done. They left with a check. They did a great job, and the county inspector said as much.

We hired a crew to install new hardwood flooring. They started early, ripped out the carpet, installed the new flooring, cleaned up and were done in a day. They left with a check.

The reason for the bolded above is most people work for money, and the longer you have to wait to get paid is bad. Completing the job and getting paid the day you are done is very rare for most contractors I know. At my day job we have MANY clients who are six months to a year past due, or more! The ones who are known to pay when we are done, get moved to the top of my priority list too.

 

[Russell_Reid]

Well, i have paid every invoice that i have received the day i have received it. The only ones that were delayed payment were the ones where the amount required a bank transfer and that took two days to go through. A check would have been just as slow.
I think my mistake was starting this project when i now work from home and can see the building out my window next to my desk. So i get to stare at it every day wondering 'When will it be done?' The 4 months it took to get permits really took a toll on my patience. I think you hire people to do things for you for several reasons: 1. you cant do it yourself (skill, health, or code). 2. You want it done faster than you can do it. 3. You want it done better than you can do it. 4. You dont want to do it.
All four reasons apply in my case. I will say at this point that i am disappointed with the concrete contractor, Satisfied with the building shell contractor, Very happy with the quality of the work of the Electrician, Very happy with the work done by the insulation contractor, and disappointed with the work of the plumber, framer, and drywall contractors. Jury is still out on my PM. He delegated to this new guy he hired just as construction started and I am of mixed feelings about him.
I fully realize that i have become 'That Client'. Which i never really wanted to become.

 

[manwithtools]

At my day job we have MANY clients who are six months to a year past due, or more!

Sounds like your company needs to fire some customers (and most of the people working in Accounts Receivable).

 

[theoldwizard1]

I have only had to deal with home repair contractors a couple of times. I both cases, I wrote an Addendum to the contract, that an "officer" of the company had to sign, that stated, " ... unless mutually agreed upon, there will be a penalty of $ assessed for late start or completion ..."

Yes, it made them uncomfortable, but they picked the start and completion date. One job was a day late in completion, but I saw how hard they worked and did not assign the penalty.

 

[aka Larry]

Sounds like your company needs to fire some customers (and most of the people working in Accounts Receivable).

No doubt.

We only have nine people total so firing the someone(s) who is/are hindering payment would be two of the three owners. They are both terrible about billing, and/or refusing future work when we are still owed from doing their previous work.

The sad part is we typically have ALL the leverage, but don't use it. For the city to sign off on a project, there are final documents that must be submitted by us. Until we submit those documents, the city will not issue permits for construction. If I was running this show, we would receive payment in FULL before we relinquish our leverage for payment.

 

[K13]

They have bigger jobs close by and come by when they have a lull in those. They contracted to get the work done by a certain date how they get to that point time wise is quite frankly none of your concern as long as they get there.

 

[finn]

Just had a paver patio / walk installed. Jay estimated 8 days start to finish, with him and one other guy doing the work.

The helper was sick one day, and they lost several hours one day because of rain.

I handed him the check at 3:00 pm of the seventh day.

Pretty happy with his work. It would have taken me all summer to do what he accomplished in seven days.

 

[RalphInCA]

Subs can make or break his livelihood... the customer, just that one job.

Exactly

 

[Hank11]

They are working on more than one job at a time. There are others asking the same questions you are.

 

[Stelzer]

I have only had to deal with home repair contractors a couple of times. I both cases, I wrote an Addendum to the contract, that an "officer" of the company had to sign, that stated, " ... unless mutually agreed upon, there will be a penalty of $ assessed for late start or completion ..."

Yes, it made them uncomfortable, but they picked the start and completion date. One job was a day late in completion, but I saw how hard they worked and did not assign the penalty.

I've written thousands of contracts and not for a single minute would I entertain such a clause, especially because late completion can be completely out of my control. Late starts too for that matter. Material shortages or screwups, manpower, weather, etc...
I understand your logic behind it and I'm glad you got it to work for you, but adding verbiage to contracts which bind me to things I cannot anticipate nor change is a recipe for disaster. Only exception is government contracts or if the customer were to agree to a ridiculously long completion date.
That said, I just worked three straight weeks over 100hrs/wk in order to meet my projected completion date, despite the fact that we added 20% more work to the scope.

 

[Old Man Roger]

Wasn’t there a thread like this but about mechanics? Lol

 

[PCustoms]

Wasn’t there a thread like this but about mechanics? Lol

No, that was about how mechanics overcharge.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Only exception is government contracts or if the customer were to agree to a ridiculously long completion date.

I was willing to negotiate.

 

[reader2580]

I had a contractor install the siding on my garage this spring. They do work for a large builder too. They will drop their other work if the builder calls since the builder gives them so much work. They told me a couple of days they needed to go work for the builder.

 

[BombShelter]

Sorry I don't know what a "PM" is?

The good guys up here have a big board with the dates all the subs are doing their work. Guys that have to do their work in order are usually very professional and don't slow down the other guys. The customer knows the schedule and if subs are messing around.

Up here we do have issues, I'm noticing more and more where homes and garages that should take 90 days or so are taking 2+ years. A lot of these guys get so booked up, and they're small, they over promise the install date and then the domino's start to fall and everyone gets bumped. It might only be one or two subs holding everyone else up but it kills the whole schedule.

I like to leave a few buffer days in the schedule, under-book and if you don't use it, another customer gets really lucky and extremely happy.

 

[micromind]

Sorry I don't know what a "PM" is?

Project Manager.

Often a guy who doesn't know which end of a hammer goes on the nail but he has plenty of papers that say he knows it all.

Seriously, I've worked around some pretty good ones and some pretty horrible ones.

 

[Cruzan80]

 

[firebirdparts]

So I take it from the use of PM that GCs have figured out a way to not do that.

It took me a while til guess what it was and it was used like everybody just expected that person to exist. Another layer to the organization.

 

[Meames01]

Nation-Wide problem. I'm going to jump up on my soapbox for a minute. We, as a society have pushed for college degrees for the last several decades. There is a large portion of the population that were/are not good at school. So, when those types go to college they end up majoring in some totally nonsense degree that bears no future. Those same types would have been great assets in the trades.
Bottom line is we have a 20 plus-year gap in trades people. I am a PM for a commercial roofing and sheet metal company and help is pretty bleak around here. Sure, we can hire a bunch of appetences, and do, but without proper job supervision it doesn't help much (especially when they only show up 75% of the time). I believe this is starting to turn around, but we still have the issue of integrity and showing up ready and willing to work everyday.
What happens is exactly what you're talking about. The contractors come to the site to make a showing and only hang out for a few hours then go to the next site to make that customer feel all warm and fuzzy. Meanwhile little is getting accomplished. Try writing contracts that have very specific milestone dates and hold them accountable, if you can get them to price work this way.

 

[RonnieC]

I completely understand your pain and frustration. We had our house custom built coming out of COVID. Any number of times I’d drop by and get excited because a whole crew was there starting framing or something else and then… three or four days with no one there, nothing getting done.
Some subs were punctual, hardworking, meticulous and clean. Some were none of those.
Hang in there and I hope you enjoy your outbuilding for years to come!

 

[zimman]

Begin rant:
My outbuilding project has been going on since February. Took until May to get permits. Construction started June 1. Every contractor except for the building shell team has come out, done some work for a day, then leaves for a couple of days. We are near the end and getting ready for final inspection and it has gotten worse. Plumbing was supposed to show up 3 times over the last week and no showed. Finally showed up yesterday late afternoon and was here 45 minutes and left. Only installed 5 out of 7 shutoff valves. All he has left to do is install the valves, toilet, bath sink, and water heater. The utility sink in the shop is just stubbed out for now. He is supposed to come back today. We will see if he finishes or leaves again.
Electrician is the same way. His work is great but the only thing he got done in a full two days was rough-in. Every other time he came out he did 3 hours and left for a day or more. Took two weeks to install receptacles, switches, and light fixtures. He had to reorder the feeder wires twice. First time it was the wrong wire. Second time the wire was too short. Couldn't terminate the panel as he didn't have the breakers. Left yesterday still 1 breaker short. Left all the receptacle covers off in the shop. Still no welding receptacle.
I could go on but you get the drift. All contractors were hired through my PM. All contractors are flat fee. All still have a final payment due so are still owed money. I can't imagine that they are making much money anymore. The travel time alone must be eating up hours. Nothing about the building has changed design wise. How can they show up without all the components they need? It was easy for me to count how many circuits, receptacles, switches, valves etc from the plans. I provided the light fixtures, toilet, sink, and water heater. All by the requested date, which was weeks ago.
I know my project is a small job. But wouldn't that be more incentive to just get it done rather than drag it out day after day? My PM keeps telling me it will be done by end of August. But he is paid hourly. So every time I email, text, or call it costs me 15 minutes. Site visits are time and travel.
I am just very frustrated. I don't understand how they can work like this. I just want the project done and finaled so we can start doing our work on the building.
Am I being unreasonable?

I was in North Dallas for a while working at Shelby and was amazed at the number of contractors headed at 100mph to build houses for Indians (from India) going 150mph to get rich quicker. Construction was insane. Traffic was insane. Prices were insane. I didn't last long. I grew up in Washington DC and had to leave the East Coast to be able to breath. Same with texas. You really won't find those problems where I'm at now. The Country living is great. I can breath out here and don't have to worry about PM's/GC's/codes/inspections/permits. We just build **** and move on. LOL
Hope you get everything you needed done.
Zim

 

[whateg01]

... Those same types would have been great assets in the trades.

I think the push toward college started to go away several years ago.

I know an English major who would not have been good in the trades. She works in sales now, but can't operate a screwdriver.

 

[niget2002]

, but can't operate a screwdriver.

dang flat-heads...

 

[LOW1]

I have only had to deal with home repair contractors a couple of times. I both cases, I wrote an Addendum to the contract, that an "officer" of the company had to sign, that stated, " ... unless mutually agreed upon, there will be a penalty of $ assessed for late start or completion ..."

Yes, it made them uncomfortable, but they picked the start and completion date. One job was a day late in completion, but I saw how hard they worked and did not assign the penalty.

That can work if the market requires a contractor to accept it In order to get work. But if the contractor has potential customers begging him to do work for them why would he accept such a term? And if he did he would price the job to reflect the potential need for overtime and other risk.

The best thing to do, as always, is to deal with reputable known contractors and have fair progress payments

 

[dcg9381]

All contractors are flat fee. All still have a final payment due so are still owed money. I can't imagine that they are making much money anymore. The travel time alone must be eating up hours. Nothing about the building has changed design wise. How can they show up without all the components they need? It was easy for me to count how many circuits, receptacles, switches, valves etc from the plans. I provided the light fixtures, toilet, sink, and water heater. All by the requested date, which was weeks ago.
I know my project is a small job. But wouldn't that be more incentive to just get it done rather than drag it out day after day? My PM keeps telling me it will be done by end of August. But he is paid hourly. So every time I email, text, or call it costs me 15 minutes. Site visits are time and travel.
I am just very frustrated. I don't understand how they can work like this. I just want the project done and finaled so we can start doing our work on the building.
Am I being unreasonable?

You're not being unreasonable, but welcome to the construction industry as a one-trick pony.

Your bid is "flat fee" so any time contractors can pick up a job with better margins, they're going to do it. Likely your agreement with them does not have any sort of binding timeline and they're not going to care if they deliver late while doing other work. At least that's my experience. They juggle many jobs.

Are these the actual contractors or their "crews"? The crews can be horrible, they are paid by the hour on the other side of this deal so fast and efficient is generally not a huge concern.

Our plumber would leave for 30-45 days, he got "commercial work" and just told us that we were not a priority over a job that paid a lot more.

Whatever you do make sure these guys are "done done" before you cut that final check. For electrical, everything powered up every switch and outlet checked. If you think they don't want to come back now, just wait until they have final payment.