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tool allowances for techs starting their careers = great idea

shoggoth80

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In the UK they will insist on foundational English/Mathematics qualifications before you are accepted into a vocational training program nowadays, it was different when I was a teenager back in the 1980s, you could start an apprenticeship at 15 years old as long as you could pass the entry exam/interview.

British kids with even the slightest bit of academic ability are automatically pushed down the University route today because it reflects well on whichever High School they attend!!!
Requiring a certain level of communications and mathematics skills isn't necessarily a bad thing, they are important... However, not everyone needs to go to college/University, and that scam has done nothing but devalue degrees, and give people debt in the United States.
 
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richfinn

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Requiring a certain level of communications and mathematics skills isn't necessarily a bad thing, they are important... However, not everyone needs to go to college/University, and that scam has done nothing but devalue degrees, and give people debt in the United States.

Same thing here, It's such a shame because a lot of bright practical minded kids that would be perfect for the trades get pushed into studying for a degree with little hope of a related career at the end.

Even if they get the same degree/grades at a less well known University, the Oxford/Cambridge graduates always get the pick of the best jobs over here.

I think they must teach English/Math very differently to when I was in School (when it was almost bullied into you by tough teachers who wouldn't stand for any ****). 😂😂
 

Yarpo

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Tool allowances for auto techs just sounds like a pizza party for salaried employees who are forced to work 60 hour weeks.
Pretty much this lol.
Just pay people what they're worth and stop ******* around with allowances and pizza parties and all this funny business.

I see quite a people mention nobody wants to train you and Mercedes will absolutely train you with their drive course/curriculum.
If you want to skip that just get your foot in the door of a dealership and they will offer endless courses.
We had people signing up for courses all the time, alignment course, electrical diag, etc.

All the kids that came in from drive seemed like good techs. I'll echo the sentiment of those that said do anything else however.
 

Cruzan80

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The HVAC guy I use charges $75 for a service call.

Same thing for the appliance repairman in Tucson.

And both come to the house.

For $200 you go to the dealer and he probably uses the same service port as the kid at P’Rileys that checks engine codes for free.

Last trans diagnostics I did at an independent shop was free, but it was several years ago.
Just so I understand, are you saying there shouldn't be a fee to look at it, or you feel the fee should be lower?
 

yellowbox

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Pick a different trade. Any trade.

Auto mechanic is thankless, expensive, dirty career. It's a much better hobby. Go be an aircraft mechanic, or a welder or a millwright or an industrial electrician or....
God yes , thankless ****** career choice , underpaid and unappreciated
I'm sorry I did it
 

yellowbox

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If I was a dealership owner, my requirement would be:

- All technicians need to own and provide standard toolbox w assortment of general automotive / marine / aviation tools

- I, as owner, will provide all OEM specialty tools that my dealership owns and keeps under lock and key and signs out to repair jobs as required

I think what is described above is a fair and reasonable system.
Ummm that's how it is now , shop speciality tools come up missing all the time
As a tech my requirement would be , higher pay , 25 an hour doesn't cut it
Quit expecting things for free ( multipoint inspections , test drives , q & a with customers and advisors )
Don't ask me to stay over cause a car just has ! To go today ,
Better benefits
Need I go on ???
 

Meursault74

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Some people don't understand opportunity cost in business.

If I am "just looking" at your problem, I am not making any money on someone else's job. It literally costs me my shop rate to do nothing.

Therefore, I must charge you to take time to look at your problem, even if I do "nothing".

When you are a wage earner or salary earner, your earnings are limited by either the hours you are permitted to work or the salary you've negotiated. This is how the "DIY saves money" mindset took hold. If you can't earn money with your time, you can save it by doing work you'd have to pay for otherwise.

When you own a business, your earnings are only limited by how many jobs you can do in a day. If you always have work you could be doing, your time has the opportunity cost of whatever you can charge for that work. DIY only saves a business owner money if they can do the thing for less money than they would be otherwise making at work.

Example. Let's say I have a plumbing issue. I get a quote for $300, $100 in parts, $200 in labor. I charge $100/hr for my time in the shop. If I can do that job in less than 2 hours, it's worth my time to stay home and do it myself. However, if I can't do it in less than 2 hours, I am now money ahead to pay the plumber. Plus, I'd much prefer to be at my shop making parts than wrestling some plumbing problem.

Some people assign little to no value to their time, so they assume no one else should. These are the people who will spend hours or days to save $100.
While I understand the sentiment. The math is a little off. You charge $100/hr for your time, but your take home isn't going to be $100/hr. You'll be paying the plumber with the take home money so you'd factor in some more of your time before the break-even point so to speak. Maybe 25-30%.
 

1982fxr

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Drinking alcohol is fairly standard in jobs that involve muscle stress, and mental stress, and has been for thousands of years.
The alcohol acts as a mild anesthetic for muscle pain, and can help with muscle cramping.
This is true whether the drinker is a mechanic, a general ditch digger, or a Ballerina.
Going out to bars is admittedly also expensive, but can also help with social networking, which has also routinely been pointed out as being crucial in some cases to find work, or better work.
Help with muscle cramping?
 

alinc100

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I'm going to veer of a slight bit/ I am a 40 -year Union Carpenter. Our new apprentices have no tuition for a 4 year program, get paid 8 hours for their school day(one class every 2 weeks) They have a minimum tool list/requirements for each class. I just recently found out that they have a tool pool ,where they can borrow/keep/select a tool, that they don't have. They start at $25/hr for 1st year apprentices. I have a 1st year apprentice on my job that believes the "tool pool" will cover her needs and she shouldn't invest any money out of her pocket to work. Me on the other hand, between the shops I've worked in or the jobsites I'm on would probably cost $10K+ to replace what I have.
 

ecotec

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I'm going to veer of a slight bit/ I am a 40 -year Union Carpenter. Our new apprentices have no tuition for a 4 year program, get paid 8 hours for their school day(one class every 2 weeks) They have a minimum tool list/requirements for each class. I just recently found out that they have a tool pool ,where they can borrow/keep/select a tool, that they don't have. They start at $25/hr for 1st year apprentices. I have a 1st year apprentice on my job that believes the "tool pool" will cover her needs and she shouldn't invest any money out of her pocket to work. Me on the other hand, between the shops I've worked in or the jobsites I'm on would probably cost $10K+ to replace what I have.
Do your apprentices OJRs have a section about having the tools on the tool list that are appropriate for her level of the apprenticeship?

It might be time to talk to her teacher or the head of the school.

On occasion, I give apprentices tools from garage/estate sales as I have upgraded my tools.
 
OP
J

jd_1138

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I'm going to veer of a slight bit/ I am a 40 -year Union Carpenter. Our new apprentices have no tuition for a 4 year program, get paid 8 hours for their school day(one class every 2 weeks) They have a minimum tool list/requirements for each class. I just recently found out that they have a tool pool ,where they can borrow/keep/select a tool, that they don't have. They start at $25/hr for 1st year apprentices. I have a 1st year apprentice on my job that believes the "tool pool" will cover her needs and she shouldn't invest any money out of her pocket to work. Me on the other hand, between the shops I've worked in or the jobsites I'm on would probably cost $10K+ to replace what I have.
If and when her lack of tools interferes with the quality of her work and adds too much time to her work, hopefully she will catch on to the fact she needs more tools (and better tools). Even if they're HF or bought cheaply off FB marketplace or from yard sales.
 

alinc100

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Do your apprentices OJRs have a section about having the tools on the tool list that are appropriate for her level of the apprenticeship?

It might be time to talk to her teacher or the head of the school.

On occasion, I give apprentices tools from garage/estate sales as I have upgraded my tools.

If and when her lack of tools interferes with the quality of her work and adds too much time to her work, hopefully she will catch on to the fact she needs more tools (and better tools). Even if they're HF or bought cheaply off FB marketplace or from yard sales.
The work we currently do, acoustic panels for sound/decoration/interior office spaces is a pretty unique set of tools ,and as of her hire date I gave her a list of the tools we use frequently/daily. I even offered to loan her a bunch of my spares so she'd be able to work on a jobsite without a lead like me. So far she has not accepted. She's really green, does not come from a construction background ,and I'm trying to ease her into this facet of the trade. She's had a rough go finding steady work in her 1st year so I'll see what her thoughts are after she gets a few paychecks under her tool belt. What I don't want to do is give her too much and begin a further spiral that everything should be a hand out. After 40 years in the trade I still buy tools and gadgets that assist/make life better. All of our apprentices need to realize it is a lifetime journey with constant improvement.
 

CGarage

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The work we currently do, acoustic panels for sound/decoration/interior office spaces is a pretty unique set of tools ,and as of her hire date I gave her a list of the tools we use frequently/daily. I even offered to loan her a bunch of my spares so she'd be able to work on a jobsite without a lead like me. So far she has not accepted. She's really green, does not come from a construction background ,and I'm trying to ease her into this facet of the trade. She's had a rough go finding steady work in her 1st year so I'll see what her thoughts are after she gets a few paychecks under her tool belt. What I don't want to do is give her too much and begin a further spiral that everything should be a hand out. After 40 years in the trade I still buy tools and gadgets that assist/make life better. All of our apprentices need to realize it is a lifetime journey with constant improvement.



I agree with this.

I think it is crazy she “wants” to be in this trade, but has zero initiative to acquire what is needed to do professional jobs.

Have you had the talk with her that the tools matter, make life easier, and save time and headache?
 

Aaron_W

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A tool program for new techs just seems like a great idea -- shows you care, you are helping insure your new techs have some crucial tools they may not have otherwise, it's a tax write off for the business, etc.. The mentoring of new techs is even better than the tool allowance program.

The thing that I find really surprising is that this isn't more common. I mean it really is a win-win for the employer, it provides a good incentive to attract new employees and it is a tax write off so the actual cost is less than the bonus.

I'm sure it could even attract experienced techs to switch employers, who doesn't like "free" money to buy more tools.

It seems like a lot of people are completely out of touch with what it is like to come right out of school and start working. There are plenty of studies showing that 1/3 to 1/2 of American households can not absorb a $500 emergency. If that is the case then it is crazy to expect a new hire to come up with $500-1500 of gear and equipment to start working.

I chuckle a bit when teachers complain about having to buy supplies from their paycheck to teach. (Not that I don't think teaching is an important job... I definitely wouldn't have the patience dealing with kids)

It's usually a choice. Where a trades job is often given a list of mandatory tools. I've seen those lists be a couple grand, so those first several paychecks are effectively zero.
And if that work doesn't pan out, what then? At best sell those tools for maybe 50% of new cost.

I work for a multibillion $$ company. Mostly involved in fuel & oil and marine/land/air cargo.

Just my warehouse alone, which there are 2 workers total, does 6-7 million $$ a year in sales.
Asking for anything more than basic office supplies is "we'll look into it"

Took 3 YEARS of constantly asking to get a sign for the building. And they sent a $100 vinyl banner. And were irritated I bought $7 of screws and washers in the company account to put it up.

I ended up buying a $125 push floor sweeper out of pocket, broom sweeping a whole warehouse was killing my back and shoulders, plus made huge clouds of dust.
I may as well have been asking for a $250,000 street sweeper the way my requests were looked at.

Stuff like that is a moral killer. Has a person on edge expecting to get a pink slip any day.
They've fired well paid employees and hired fresh less paid people more than a few times.
Somehow flushing down years, maybe even decades of knowledge and experience. But on paper, the new guy costs less.

The teacher example isn't really apples to apples to buying tools. Teachers often have to provide consumables. Translated to mechanics that isn't making the techs buy a filter wrench, that is making them buy the oil for an oil change.


Completely agree on the morale aspect. It is one thing to buy your own gear that you prefer over the provided, but when the employees have to buy stuff just to do the job that is how you create disgruntled employees.


Thank you for proving my point.
Blake, I predict, within a decade, your career will continue to progress and greatly exceed that of those who are, currently, your “peers”. Keep up your learning and good work.

It doesn't matter the field, in my experience the people that go above and beyond in learning about their job are the people that tend to rise above the rest. I spent my career in the fire service. We had "9-5" guys who came to work, did their job and went home. They were competent (mostly) but had no passion. Bitched about OT, didn't understand many of the finer points that made the work easier or more efficient. It was just a job.
Then there were the ones who lived the job, everything about them was about being a firefighter. They were great at the job (mostly) but that also has a price. Those were the guys who jumped on every OT shift, and had no interests outside of the fire service. Those were also the guys that started living at the station after the divorce and often ended up with stress illnesses, alcohol abuse etc because they had nothing outside of work.

The middle is the sweet spot. Appreciate your job and enjoy it enough to want to be at your peak performance but keep enough distance to have a life outside of work.

I personally see a tool allowance as a good thing, plus maybe an up front signing bonus. Requiring the money be spend on an employer provided list of brands is beyond stupid, though.

I think the advantage to specific brands is simply logistics. The employer can set up an account with Snap On, MAC, HF etc so no cash changes hands, the employee just goes in picks out their tools, the allowance is deducted and charged to the employer and the employee can pay cash for any remaining balance in their cart.

There are advantages to just handing the cash to the employee, but also some downsides on the employers side. More accounting work, can lead to personnel issues if the money is spent for something other than tools (like food or diapers...). Could even lead to legal issues (buying "hot" tools").

Sure everybody likes to assume people are responsible, but people often prove that belief to be wrong. A line of credit with a few reputable suppliers can avoid headaches.

Same thing here, It's such a shame because a lot of bright practical minded kids that would be perfect for the trades get pushed into studying for a degree with little hope of a related career at the end.

Even if they get the same degree/grades at a less well known University, the Oxford/Cambridge graduates always get the pick of the best jobs over here.

I think they must teach English/Math very differently to when I was in School (when it was almost bullied into you by tough teachers who wouldn't stand for any ****). 😂😂

Yeah, that was me. Not to brag but I was a pretty smart kid so I was always pushed to the college path. Just because you are "smart" does not mean you are well suited to sitting in an office or lab. There are lots of smart people who like being outdoors and working with their hands.
 

dchawk81

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I would wager that most Doctors or Dentists these days work for a Medical Group or Dental Group.

Not many out there that have the resources to hang their own shingle, especially right out of school.

Having a private practice means having to hire nurses, medical assistants, medical coders, insurance people and more. I would bet they would need a million or two to start.

Plus there’s the education debt.

The problem I see with providing tools to auto mechanics is that, for many, or at least some, there’s no sense of ownership. Who restocks when Bubba loses a 10 mm every other day?, Or when the contents of his box disappears because he neglected to lock his box, and Homer in the next stall has sticky fingers?

Medical equipment is often either disposable, too large to walk, has no secondary market, etc. In general the clinic takes care of cleaning and sanitation of the “tools”, seeing that they are up to date, etc. I think my last couple of doctors would consider their laptop one of their most critical tools, and that’s owned, maintained, and serviced by the clinic and their IT group.

Plus, mechanics to some extent, are notorious for rolling their boxes out the front door with little provocation. There goes $20k worth of tools on their way to the Pawn Shop.

I personally see a tool allowance as a good thing, plus maybe an up front signing bonus. Requiring the money be spend on an employer provided list of brands is beyond stupid, though.
Bubba's always stealing my MRI machine.
 

haneyrm

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I have a nephew that works in a machine shop. Because of this thread, I asked if he had to provide his own hand tools or if the shop provided them. He laughed and said that the shop used to have several boxes with a mix of basic use hand tools and over the course of a pretty short period of time, many were stolen by employees, not returned, trashed with shop towels, etc. Zero F’s given type of situation. He keeps his tools in a locked locker and engraves each one.

I used to work for Naval Intelligence in Suitland, MD. We had to check tools out in the morning and check them back in each afternoon. If something went missing, you had to answer for it. It broke and I threw it away was not an acceptable response. We had to check in the broken tools and they would note the item as broken and replace.
 

alinc100

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I agree with this.

I think it is crazy she “wants” to be in this trade, but has zero initiative to acquire what is needed to do professional jobs.

Have you had the talk with her that the tools matter, make life easier, and save time and headache?
Just a bit. I have to tread lightly as our union doesn't exactly agree with some of our policies and the apprenticeship school gives a well rounded basic instruction after 4 years. I'll have to contact one of my old co-workers who is teaching there and get the entire required tool list. I would hazard a guess that sockets, wrenches, ratchets don't make the list but are used in scaffold building, unistrut assembly, etc. Coming from the display shop world where I spent most of my career I could be building cabinets one day, dismantling and engine or an axle the next, building a log cabin, welding, cutting material on a CNC or a waterjet, hanging a door ,or drywalling a ceiling. After 40 years I have most everything I could need for those types of work. My current employer, where we get into the gray area is we bring our own laser, our own impact/drill and batteries, along with our favored rolling painter style scaffold, which allows us to reach most ceilings. Also makes a great rolling carrier for our tools. Sometimes we are on jobs for 4 hours ,4 weeks ,4 months. The company provides baker scaffolds, aerial lifts, gangboxes, miter saws, track saws, air compressors, etc. The turnover is very low, there are only 8 of us in the field, and most of us have been in the trade so long we are used to having/buying needed hand tools. If anything gets lost ,broken, stolen a new tool is bought and the company reimburses the employee by the next pay period. Or in some instances we just charge them to the job. Is it an ideal situation ,no , but I see both sides of it. Each of us working has a vested interest in keeping our tools in good shape, organized and working. Amongst us that have been there we have every brand covered Hilti, Bosch, Dewalt, Fein, Makita, Milwaukee, and everyone has their preferences.
 
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CGarage

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Just a bit. I have to tread lightly as our union doesn't exactly agree with some of our policies and the apprenticeship school gives a well rounded basic instruction after 4 years. I'll have to contact one of my old co-workers who is teaching there and get the entire required tool list. I would hazard a guess that sockets, wrenches, ratchets don't make the list but are used in scaffold building, unistrut assembly, etc. Coming from the display shop world where I spent most of my career I could be building cabinets one day, dismantling and engine or an axle the next, building a log cabin, welding, cutting material on a CNC or a waterjet, hanging a door ,or drywalling a ceiling. After 40 years I have most everything I could need for those types of work. My current employer, where we get into the gray area is we bring our own laser, our own impact/drill and batteries, along with our favored rolling painter style scaffold, which allows us to reach most ceilings. Also makes a great rolling carrier for our tools. Sometimes we are on jobs for 4 hours ,4 weeks ,4 months. The company provides baker scaffolds, aerial lifts, gangboxes, miter saws, track saws, air compressors, etc. The turnover is very low, there are only 8 of us in the field, and most of us have been in the trade so long we are used to having/buying needed hand tools. If anything gets lost ,broken, stolen a new tool is bought and the company reimburses the employee by the next pay period. Or in some instances we just charge them to the job. Is it an ideal situation ,no , but I see both sides of it. Each of us working has a vested interest in keeping our tools in good shape, organized and working. Amongst us that have been there we have every brand covered Hilti, Bosch, Dewalt, Fein, Makita, Milwaukee, and everyone has their preferences.



This is the first time I have ever heard of a union job this diverse. To go from automotive (it sounds like engine and axle building) to cabinetry to cabin construction to painting is incredible. This is the first time I have ever heard of such a thing.
 

Hakeem

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I’m in school for diesel mechanics and I’m always telling my classmates to start buying tools NOW, in preparation for their future careers. Find a weekly amount you can budget for tools (at least $20 and ideally $50) and start building a collection by buying individual sockets and wrenches. Otherwise, you could be offered your dream job tomorrow and you’d be totally unprepared to accept it.

Guess how many take my advice? 1, out of maybe 40. He’s also the only one with a field-adjacent job as a millwright apprentice in a forge. Not a coincidence.

I sympathize with them regarding the cost of tools but that’s the nature of our chosen field: a basic tool setup + tool cart is probably $1-2k. I’m not really sure what their plan is. Our school used to have a mandatory tool list but got rid of it to attract more students. I’m not sure that’s a good thing because now the students don’t buy ANY tools.
 

dchawk81

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I’m in school for diesel mechanics and I’m always telling my classmates to start buying tools NOW, in preparation for their future careers. Find a weekly amount you can budget for tools (at least $20 and ideally $50) and start building a collection by buying individual sockets and wrenches. Otherwise, you could be offered your dream job tomorrow and you’d be totally unprepared to accept it.

Guess how many take my advice? 1, out of maybe 40. He’s also the only one with a field-adjacent job as a millwright apprentice in a forge. Not a coincidence.

I sympathize with them regarding the cost of tools but that’s the nature of our chosen field: a basic tool setup + tool cart is probably $1-2k. I’m not really sure what their plan is. Our school used to have a mandatory tool list but got rid of it to attract more students. I’m not sure that’s a good thing because now the students don’t buy ANY tools.
I wouldn't buy much of anything until I knew what I was going to get into.
 

dchawk81

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The problem with that approach is that if/when you get your first job, you’ll have to buy everything at once and most likely go into debt.

Every mechanic is going to need wrenches and sockets.
I mean you can still put back money in anticipation of having to buy tools.

Instead of dropping 20-50 every week on tools just put it aside in the bank.
 

Hakeem

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I mean you can still put back money in anticipation of having to buy tools.

Instead of dropping 20-50 every week on tools just put it aside in the bank.
Fair point, you are correct. Personally I don’t see why you’d spend the time, money, and effort to complete a diesel mechanic program, and then hold off as long as possible to buy any tools, but different horses for different courses and all that.
 

mikedodge

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The problem I see most with technicians in the U.S. is as follows:

1) Inability to communicate professionally- verbally and in writing
2) Financial illiteracy (how many have rude bucks in tool truck debt)?
3) Too much drinking on and off the job
4) Very, very few have knowledge of tool brands and companies beyond what is available from tool trucks, this leads to poor application of limited capital
5) Failure to apply and implement Military-style checklists during workflow to make sure all steps are observed, and then cross-checking work product

The money would be better spent on educating these young men and women in my opinion. But, it is also my point of view that a European type apprenticeship program should be required where beginners in the field must work under a seasoned and experienced hand for a few years before being able to go off and work professionally.

Throwing money at the problem via a tool allowance does not address core issues that can be solved with better training and education.

ETA) #5 to list

If that's a valid list it sounds like things are different in the US then Canada.

For tool budget I'm not sure how that would work. A lot of places aren't able to pay that and those that are are usually the places that are over priced or get jobs out as quick as possible for maximum profit and neither of those suit a new person fresh out of school and apprenticing well. Plus an awful lot of people don't make it past the first few years without giving up and moving on to something else. Better would be a place that offers to loan newbies certain amount for tools at little or no interest if paid back in a certain amount of time. I knew a lot of people who when they started they could borrow tools from the people they were working for or with until they could afford to start buying their own which was usually pretty quickly.
 

mikedodge

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It seems to be western human nature to not treat carefully things that are not yours.
Rental cars are an example. Same with tools.

Until western society learns Asian levels of respect and accountability, employers are going to be footing the bill for the damage and negligence that is bound to occur.

Wow you're just full of something with this thread lol

That lack of respect happens anywhere. Some people really don't give a s--- about other people's belongings.
 

CGarage

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Wow you're just full of something with this thread lol

That lack of respect happens anywhere. Some people really don't give a s--- about other people's belongings.


Full of life experience and a knowledge gained from travel. Go to Japan and it’s a totally different experience as to how belongings are treated.

I needed to borrow a trimmer from my neighbor years ago. When I finished with it, I cleaned and oiled the blade. I returned it in better condition than when I received it. I do the same if I rent a car.
 

CGarage

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If that's a valid list it sounds like things are different in the US then Canada.

For tool budget I'm not sure how that would work. A lot of places aren't able to pay that and those that are are usually the places that are over priced or get jobs out as quick as possible for maximum profit and neither of those suit a new person fresh out of school and apprenticing well. Plus an awful lot of people don't make it past the first few years without giving up and moving on to something else. Better would be a place that offers to loan newbies certain amount for tools at little or no interest if paid back in a certain amount of time. I knew a lot of people who when they started they could borrow tools from the people they were working for or with until they could afford to start buying their own which was usually pretty quickly.



I know my list is valid.

I was underwhelmed by the available tooling in Canada and the technical competence.

There is a reason for this. Canada has roughly 1/10th the US population. Industry is smaller as a result.
 

CGarage

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Fair point, you are correct. Personally I don’t see why you’d spend the time, money, and effort to complete a diesel mechanic program, and then hold off as long as possible to buy any tools, but different horses for different courses and all that.


I agree with you and your approach.

The technical school you go to should continually revise the basic tool list that is recommended.

Ideally, the technical school would work with the manufacturers (CAT, MAN, Cummins, etc) and have dialogue as to what will be expected of new hires.
 

dr_clyde

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
6,464
Location
Holland, MI
While I understand the sentiment. The math is a little off. You charge $100/hr for your time, but your take home isn't going to be $100/hr. You'll be paying the plumber with the take home money so you'd factor in some more of your time before the break-even point so to speak. Maybe 25-30%.
Adjust the math to fit. Its an example.

Sometimes I do take home $100/hr.

Sometimes I take home $20/hr, sometimes I take home $200/hr. Jobs vary, but I try to average a take home that makes it worth it.

The fact remains I do the math and decide what I’d rather do.
 

Meursault74

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Joined
Apr 1, 2019
Messages
22,081
Location
Southern California
Adjust the math to fit. Its an example.

Sometimes I do take home $100/hr.

Sometimes I take home $20/hr, sometimes I take home $200/hr. Jobs vary, but I try to average a take home that makes it worth it.

The fact remains I do the math and decide what I’d rather do.
for DIY things, I also factor in the hassle/time of getting someone else to do something.

Many times, it's more trouble to get someone to do a task than to just do it myself.

At work, I routinely change the batteries on the electronic door locks. It takes about 15 minutes for me to take the lock apart and put it back. I don't do it because I like to, not because I like stepping on the toes of the locksmiths. Simply because it takes more of my time to put the requests and follow ups and arrange the time with them. I'm on salary so I try to do everything as efficiently as possible.

Plus, the door isn't opening with our ID tags in the meantime. I just keep a bag with all the various screwdrivers just for that task and a supply of batteries.

I only have batteries, I don't have other parts. So if it's something like the circuit board goes I have to have the locksmiths come by. The lead locksmith knows I change the batteries, and he doesn't care, they're overworked it seems, which is likely why it takes them a long time to get to the task.
 

neophyte

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 23, 2012
Messages
9,792
Location
Pennsylvannia
It seems to be western human nature to not treat carefully things that are not yours.
Rental cars are an example. Same with tools.

I think a basic tool box with tools should be owned by any prospective employee and brought to work.

Until western society learns Asian levels of respect and accountability, employers are going to be footing the bill for the damage and negligence that is bound to occur.

I think there are some amazing opportunities within human potential that never get to develop because of lack of access and barriers made by tooling costs. I have seen young men in 3rd to 5th world countries who love working with their hands and are excited to be in the trades, but are held back because of lack of access to the needed equipment. This is sad.
Toshio Odate, a Japanese Woodworker and sculptor, had a traditional Japanese apprenticeship before moving to the USA.
In his book on Japanese Woodworking Tools, “Japanese Woodworking Tools: Their Tradition, Spirit and Use”, he recounts experiences as an apprentice and woodworking in Japan.
One experience was accidentally freezing his master’s water sharpening stones, destroying the stones. (His “master” was also his stepfather). This is the kind of screwup you would have to think of, and realize might be a problem to avoid doing it.
He also recounts plenty of cheap tools for sale from tool dealers that were presumably made in Japan, but complete **** designed to fool the cheap or unwary.
He also recounted saving up to buy a high quality woodworking plane, which in Japan was the sign of a high quality carpenter, and his master and his carpenter acquaintances decided the plane was too good for him, and took the plane, and he never saw the plane again.
This is also just Japan, during one period of time.
While wrapping wood beams to prevent marring is one standard of working in Japan, smacking the beams with giant hardwood mallets is also standard, and is usually not done with a sacrificial board in place to further prevent marring.
That video showing a Japanese Carpenter building a “Western Style” house, that had a thread within the past few months, showed the carpenter taking lots of extra cautionary steps, but then not preventing tearout while drilling if I recall correct correctly.
Other Asian countries have significantly varying cultures.

As far as “respecting tools”, tools are used to get a job done.
Plenty of workers use whatever tools are at hand as a hammer, if the time saved would be more expensive than buying a new wrench, or pair of Vise-Grips, or flashlight.
The issue is most people don’t estimate that need for replacement into the later budget or costs.
Not only do workers do this, employers can be the cheapest f@cks around.
I once had a job were you had to fill out a form to get a replacement Bic Crustal pen.
Literally, the cost of the time wasted filling out the form, let alone going to the next door office, or several floors away if the office manager wasn’t in, was significantly more than the cost of a single pen, or even a dozen pens.
 

AA/FC

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 9, 2010
Messages
2,080
<snip>

I work for a multibillion $$ company. Mostly involved in fuel & oil and marine/land/air cargo.

Just my warehouse alone, which there are 2 workers total, does 6-7 million $$ a year in sales.
Asking for anything more than basic office supplies is "we'll look into it"

Took 3 YEARS of constantly asking to get a sign for the building. And they sent a $100 vinyl banner. And were irritated I bought $7 of screws and washers in the company account to put it up.

I ended up buying a $125 push floor sweeper out of pocket, broom sweeping a whole warehouse was killing my back and shoulders, plus made huge clouds of dust.
I may as well have been asking for a $250,000 street sweeper the way my requests were looked at.

<snip>
I am spoiled....

I have worked for cheap companies like you mentioned above..... And I have worked for companies who LOVE to spend money.

The last company I worked for, a small family owned business, the owner LOVED buying the best of everything, and lots of it. We went without nothing. If there was a tool or machine that would make our jobs easier, we had it.... and as many as we wanted. We had the nicest, newest and best trucks and equipment money could buy with every feature and option possible. There was ALWAYS new trucks and equipment on order. We took delivery of expensive new equipment on a regular basis. (basically monthly) The owner enjoys the act of buying nice stuff... that is his way to have "fun". He is a salesman's dream come true. Just open a sales brochure and he would say "yes" to everything. It would be nothing for him to see a brand new million dollar piece of equipment for sale on the internet, call the dealer and buy it over the phone, then travel to the dealer a few days later to spec out even more features and options to be installed. All I had to do was just barely mention something that I wanted or needed and it would happen ASAP.... That guy LOVES to spend money. lol.
 
OP
J

jd_1138

Well-known member
Joined
May 8, 2013
Messages
17,069
Location
NE Ohio
The problem with that approach is that if/when you get your first job, you’ll have to buy everything at once and most likely go into debt.

Every mechanic is going to need wrenches and sockets.
Yep plus pliers, clamps, basic electrical tools like multimeter, strippers. Electricians, mechanics, plumbers and carpenters share a common list of required tools.

Plumbers need multimeters if they're going to be working on water heaters.

A lot of these tool companies have sets of tools besides individual tools. A "core" set with wrenches, sockets and pliers, hammers, clamps, basic multimeter, tape measure, wire strippers, etc should be Baseline Set for all trades.

Then have subsets for each specific trade in order of recommended purchase order.
 
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