Probably easy questions for experienced electrician and plumber

[oldpops]

Hello. Hoping folks here can answer a few question on our kitchen island remodel (I've already got some answers on the floor level on another post). Anyway, we finally got our old kitchen island cabinets out of the way and discovered a few things that I could use some help with.

Question #1) The existing island footprint has the kitchen sink at one end of the island - my wife of 40+ years would like to move the sink over 18" (on the new island layout) because she would like to have a pull-out trash can on the end instead of the sink. I know the existing plumbing and wiring is coming up from the floor inside the 2'x6' pony wall, and I've attached a picture of the current plumbing (coming out of the pony wall) for folks here to see. Will it be possible to move the sink over the 18" inches - she wants

Question #2) in the picture you will see a "U" shaped copper pipe 1/2" inch pipe coming and out of the pony wall below the cold water supply side. What is this this?

Question #3) Also, you can't see it in the picture (because it is directly below the kitchen drain/waste pipe, but there is a cleanout pipe.) I thought cleanout pipes were always above, or down range from the fixture. I guess they can't have the cleanout access downrange inside a kitchen island, but why wouldn't they put it above the drain line?

Question #4) IN the 2nd picture you will see a GFCI outlet from our kitchen wall. I want to replace it with a new white colored outlet of the same type but I'm told it's $35.00 bucks - for one common kitchen GFCI outlet - Is this true? Anyone know if the GFCI outlet shown is anything special or have links to buy a new one to get it replaced?

As always, thanks in advance to all who offer help and advice

 

[bamawildcat]

Re, #4, GFCIs at my Lowe's are running between $17-$38 for a 15 amp variety. $35 seems on target for a great quality GFCI outlet.

 

[oldpops]

I was wondering if it might be a 20 amp because it's in the kitchen, on the back kitchen wall

 

[yatg]

Question #2) in the picture you will see a "U" shaped copper pipe 1/2" inch pipe coming and out of the pony wall below the cold water supply side. What is this this?

That's what I was going to ask you. Hope its not hot and cold tied together. Better open up the wall and look.

Question #4) IN the 2nd picture you will see a GFCI outlet from our kitchen wall. I want to replace it with a new white colored outlet of the same type but I'm told it's $35.00 bucks - for one common kitchen GFCI outlet - Is this true? Anyone know if the GFCI outlet shown is anything special or have links to buy a new one to get it replaced?

Levition 15A GFCI is $18 at home depot.
If you want TR (tamper resistant) its another few bucks.
You can use 15A receptacles, including GFCI, on a 20A circuit.

 

[dcg9381]

Not a plumber or electrician, but I've done a few kitchens.

Question #1) The existing island footprint has the kitchen sink at one end of the island - my wife of 40+ years would like to move the sink over 18" (on the new island layout) because she would like to have a pull-out trash can on the end instead of the sink. I know the existing plumbing and wiring is coming up from the floor inside the 2'x6' pony wall, and I've attached a picture of the current plumbing (coming out of the pony wall) for folks here to see. Will it be possible to move the sink over the 18" inches - she wants

Sure, as long as it's enclosed within that pony wall or within the "island". You will have to adjust your pull out depth (drawer or trash can)... That drain can be configured to be a little tighter. Bad news is that it may require a "custom" cabinet if you're putting a drawer or pull out with that drain behind it. If you're willing to open the pony wall, all that stuff can be moved over by a plumber.

Question #2) in the picture you will see a "U" shaped copper pipe 1/2" inch pipe coming and out of the pony wall below the cold water supply side. What is this this?

It's a looped water line. Probably cold water, but no way to tell. It might have been designed for a under-cabinet filter and feed something like the refrigerator. It's a bit odd as you already have 3 feeds.

Question #3) Also, you can't see it in the picture (because it is directly below the kitchen drain/waste pipe, but there is a cleanout pipe.) I thought cleanout pipes were always above, or down range from the fixture. I guess they can't have the cleanout access downrange inside a kitchen island, but why wouldn't they put it above the drain line?

I have clean outs that are below the sink drain level. Is this single or mult-story? They're designed to clean the "main" drain, not necessarily the feeds.

 

[mike93lx]

I was wondering if it might be a 20 amp because it's in the kitchen, on the back kitchen wall

A 20a has the same guts as a 15. And there is pretty much no application where a 20 would be needed.

 

[oldpops]

We live in a single story southern California tract home on a concrete slab.

 

[nadogail]

With enough time and money, almost anything is possible; often we find ourselves making choices based on the amount of time and money available.
Would the job be easier if you moved the sink just a little bit more?

 

[75gmck25]

Just get out your drywall saw and completely open that wall with the pipes and drain. That will give you a much better idea of how difficult it will be to move the sink. My guess is that moving it 18” may not be that difficult.

Another guess - could that pipe loop have been a rough-in for some type of under-sink water filter?

And if you are really shocked about $35 for a GFCI (vice a more typical $18-$25), I hope you are prepared for remodeling sticker shock. Just wait until you start pricing sinks, countertops, cabinets, flooring, etc.

 

[The Cobbler]

Just get out your drywall saw and completely open that wall with the pipes and drain. That will give you a much better idea of how difficult it will be to move the sink. My guess is that moving it 18” may not be that difficult.

x2

 

[carlaisle]

Remove the drywall concealing the plumbing so you can see what you're dealing with.

GFCI outlets are pricey. That is clearly a 15 amp outlet. It may (should) be on a 20 amp circuit. You an always put a 15 amp outlet on a 20 amp circuit. You can't go the other way.

 

[carcruse]

20A receptacle is different but the wiring could be capable of 20A.

 

[Codyboy]

If money is no object and someone is getting paid to do the work , ok.
If I'm doing it and i would be , the answer is NO. It can't be done. It's impossible.
The sink stays where its at. Trash can pull out is a no go.
It will fill up too fast and have to be emptied more often. And when its not emptied the trash spills over inside the cabinet.
NO.

 

[JD291]

If money is no object and someone is getting paid to do the work , ok.
If I'm doing it and i would be , the answer is NO. It can't be done. It's impossible.
The sink stays where its at. Trash can pull out is a no go.
It will fill up too fast and have to be emptied more often. And when its not emptied the trash spills over inside the cabinet.
NO.

He's trying to make his wife happy, not use logic.

 

[Norcal]

Depending on the code edition the OP is on, it may not allow receptacles in the side wall of the cabinet, code committees have gotten stupid lately & ones listed for use on the countertop are expensive.

 

[oldpops]

Well as MOPAR said - Happy wife - happy life!

I have almost died twice from Septic Shock in the less than 4 months. Both times my wife of 40+ years dropped everything and was by my bedside 24/7 for the entire times(s) I was in the hospital. The nurses were great but my wife did everything for me but give the IV's and med's. My wife bathed me, fed me, took me to the bathroom and carefully monitored all the monitors hooked up to me - which was good because twice my heartbeat basically dropped so low it almost stopped. My wife was able to flag down help in enough time BEFORE it sopped completely so that they could get things turned around without the crash cart. Through it all my wife has been right by my side.

I don't deserve the wonderful girl I married. So, if she told me she wanted polka-dot wall paper inside all the kitchen drawers and cabinets I would look to make it happen.

I've attached a few pictures of the island pony wall pluming now that the wall is open and it's exposed. Anybody know what the "U" shaped copper pipe coming out of the wall (off the cold water line - into the loop - then back into the wall and down into the ground/concrete). I'm wondering if it goes to a water spigot outside the house on the back of the house - but that's all I can think of.

**Can you folks see how the electrical is coming up in conduit JUST IN FRONT of the bottom plate of the pony wall. I'm thinking it was supposed to come up through the pony wall base plate but their measurements were a bit off - Or is that how it's supposed to be?

Anyway, I want to say thanks again for everyone's help!

 

[75gmck25]

It should be relatively easy to move the sink over 18" to the left, but a little harder to move it to the right because the vent gets in the way. However, you could you always use a Studor vent and just cap off the existing vent line.

Your guess about the looped water line going to a hose bib is probably correct. In my opinion they should have also added a shutoff so you could cut the hose bib water off, but its probably not needed if you don't get freezing weather.

Electrical definitely looks like a simple error in the conduit coming up and missing the wall. You could try chiseling out some more concrete to get it closer to inside the wall, but maybe its not worth it if it ends up inside a cabinet.

Double trash can pullout (trash and recycling) is a very common solution for kitchen trash. Very convenient, but still hidden.

 

[LeeG]

This doesn’t address your primary question, but when my wife wanted the slide out trash setup, I made some specific for the space.





Not really amazing work, as it was my first time using solid rivets, but it has worked well for over 7 years.

 

[wolfhawk73]

Pony up for the best GFCI you can get, especially if it's just one. Cheap and pricey ones both have circuit boards in them. The cheap boards are made of cardboard. The pricey ones have fiberglass boards and are much more moisture resistant. The back strap/structure of the pricey ones is better as well, and the plug retention is generally better over time and heat cycles.

 

[dave*99]

I have this type of trash cabinet. It has two cans 13 gallons each. Trash and recycling. Works great. I had to shop carefully to find a 13 gallon unit. Some have a top drawer and 9 gallon cans.

 

[dave*99]

If you really wanted to capture that conduit entirely in the wall, you could fur the wall out another 1 to 1.5" Probably not worth the effort since its in the toe kick area.

 

[dcg9381]

Anybody know what the "U" shaped copper pipe coming out of the wall (off the cold water line - into the loop - then back into the wall and down into the ground/concrete). I'm wondering if it goes to a water spigot outside the house on the back of the house - but that's all I can think of.

It's a loop to something else. In my home, I have that there to feed the 'fridge from under sink filtered water... But absolutely could be spigot. Do I have it right that that's copper to PEX going into the foundation on that loop? If you really want to know, put a valve on it.

 

[carlaisle]

Conduit appears to be duct taped to a piece of rebar? I want to move that inside the wall where it belongs, but it's not worth the effort on a slab. Just notch the cabinet around it and call it good. You'll never know it's there once the cabinet is installed. I'd need to fix the cold supply loop and extra hot supply. There's nothing wrong with leaving them, I just couldn't sleep well at night knowing I had the opportunity to fix that and didn't.

 

[dave*99]

Conduit appears to be duct taped to a piece of rebar? I want to move that inside the wall where it belongs, but it's not worth the effort on a slab. Just notch the cabinet around it and call it good. You'll never know it's there once the cabinet is installed. I'd need to fix the cold supply loop and extra hot supply. There's nothing wrong with leaving them, I just couldn't sleep well at night knowing I had the opportunity to fix that and didn't.

Dishwasher supply. It's next to the dishwasher receptacle.

 

[carlaisle]

Dishwasher supply. It's next to the dishwasher receptacle.

I've never installed one like that, but you're probably right. Could be code in his area.

 

[andys]

I don't deserve the wonderful girl I married. So, if she told me she wanted polka-dot wall paper inside all the kitchen drawers and cabinets I would look to make it happen.

You don't have to defend your love for your wife, but I'm glad you shared

 

[dave*99]

I've never installed one like that, but you're probably right. Could be code in his area.

I used to hardwire dishwashers years ago. I think the NEC added a requirement for a local disconnect in 2014. A plug and receptacle qualifies.

 

[Codyboy]

If you really wanted to capture that conduit entirely in the wall, you could fur the wall out another 1 to 1.5" Probably not worth the effort since its in the toe kick area.

Electrical conduit and plumbing in our island was exactly on the money according to the plan.
When the cabinets started going in we realized that the island was too close to the other cabinets opposite on an exterior wall.
So we shoved the island back about a foot. Eh maybe 8".
So now all that pipe and conduit comes up inside the cabinet for the cabinet instead of the wall.
Still works fine, still hidden from view.

 

[oldpops]

Dishwasher and Garbage disposal on a a plug. Code out here in southern California won't allow outlets on the end of islands anymore (kids/adults accidently pull on cords and down comes the crock-pot down).

 

[Dakotadadv8]

This is a job for Superman, no I mean a professional. Outsource the work safer for you. Even a cheap SOB like me know their limits.

 

[oldpops]

Well I hired a handyman guy with many high marks on yelp and Thumbtack. The guy did a little work on our kitchen island pony wall, took $220 bucks payment for starting (left to go work on a different job). Then called out the next day. Called the day after that to say he was on his way to HD but if I wanted him to continue working on the project he wanted $150 on top of what I still owed him. What could I say - he has the kitchen island blown apart - we have no sink/no plumbing or electrical!

He went and got the supplies (HD cashier called me and I put materials on my HD card $460.00 bucks!). They did bring everything to my house and began working again and everything I looked at (on line I can see my receipt) seemed to be here. But after a couple hours they had to leave again but promised they would be back the next day/Saturday. Got a text message at 10:52 pm Friday night saying he had some 'personal issues' and wouldn't be coming back until Monday.

I discussed with my wife and family over the weekend and we agreed to give this guy the hook and see if we can find anyone else. I wanted the $220 bucks back because I'm worse of now than when the started (someone else has to come in and try to figure what he was doing and go from there $$). However my family said the guy and his 'associate' - which is really his Dad, should get something for their labor for what they did. And after checking the receipt against what is actually here, we're missing a little over a $100 on some shark bite fittings.

When I messaged the guy back - I told him we didn't need his services anymore and to please drop off the missing pieces. So far the guy has gone radio silent and I'll probably never hear from the guy again. What a dummy I am.

 

[no704]

3 years ago I did a kitchen remodel. Including moving the sink to the island. Was probably against code but placed outlets around it. Some with USB ports. Best thing ever. Can sit with laptop plugged in. Or charge phone. I can’t imagine having the stupid pop up plugs in the nice clean granite surface. Run the power and install the outlets after inspection if you have to.

 

[carlaisle]

Well I hired a handyman guy with many high marks on yelp and Thumbtack. The guy did a little work on our kitchen island pony wall, took $220 bucks payment for starting (left to go work on a different job). Then called out the next day. Called the day after that to say he was on his way to HD but if I wanted him to continue working on the project he wanted $150 on top of what I still owed him. What could I say - he has the kitchen island blown apart - we have no sink/no plumbing or electrical!

He went and got the supplies (HD cashier called me and I put materials on my HD card $460.00 bucks!). They did bring everything to my house and began working again and everything I looked at (on line I can see my receipt) seemed to be here. But after a couple hours they had to leave again but promised they would be back the next day/Saturday. Got a text message at 10:52 pm Friday night saying he had some 'personal issues' and wouldn't be coming back until Monday.

I discussed with my wife and family over the weekend and we agreed to give this guy the hook and see if we can find anyone else. I wanted the $220 bucks back because I'm worse of now than when the started (someone else has to come in and try to figure what he was doing and go from there $$). However my family said the guy and his 'associate' - which is really his Dad, should get something for their labor for what they did. And after checking the receipt against what is actually here, we're missing a little over a $100 on some shark bite fittings.

When I messaged the guy back - I told him we didn't need his services anymore and to please drop off the missing pieces. So far the guy has gone radio silent and I'll probably never hear from the guy again. What a dummy I am.

Just call that your tuition and move on. No need to beat yourself up over it. For future reference, you only pay for work that has been completed, not started. Anyone who requires payment in advance is someone you don't want to hire. Once you let go of the money you're at their mercy. Anyone using Sharkbite fittings isn't someone you want doing work for you anyway. Consider yourself fortunate and carry on. He doesn't deserve anything for his labor due to his behavior. Don't let anyone guilt you into that.

 

[oldpops]

carlaisle, thinking about what happened as tuition actually made me feel a little better! My wife and I are seniors on a VERY tight income and this budget buster has really put us in a bad spot, so I feel bad and I wish my wife would just yell at me - but she tells me not to worry about it and that somehow it will work out. (I kind of wish she would yell at me - somehow that would make me feel a little better). Anyway, I have a new guy coming tomorrow - one who is actually honest about what he can and can't do, so we'll see how things go. Hopefully we can get this project out of the nose dive it seems to be in. I also like the idea of adding outlets at the end WITH the USB ports.

 

[oldpops]

carlaisle, I did have another guy come out and he didn't want to speak anything bad, or at all, about the guy I was dealing with before - but he said the same thing you did about using "SharkBite" fittings - especially for a high use item like a sink or shower. He said if that's what I wanted to find someone else because he doesn't make any money if he has to come back for repairs. The water comes up from the ground in PEX lines and at the top of the PEX lines they have a fitting that connects them to copper pipes. Then copper pipe lines come out of the wall for the water shut-off's for hot and cold and the dishwasher. I didn't know and SharkBite says they don't leak - but it would be sealed up in a wall so what could go wrong (I'm being sarcastic there).

As my dad used to say "that handyman has forgotten more than I'll ever know", but since I don't know jack-sh@! about (whatever trade), well - that ain't much of a bar to clear" , he also used to say: "A lot of enthusiasm married to a little bit of knowledge usually results in having to hire someone who actually knows what they are doing to fix the mess created!"

If only I had listened to my own pops 60+ years ago

 

[carlaisle]

Sharkbites are very handy. I've used them plenty of times, but only in temporary situations or where they remain fully exposed forever and where if they fail the mess will be manageable and damage minimal. A kitchen is not one of these places. Your plumbing is all exposed right now so there is zero excuse not to do the job correctly. Looking at the pictures and what you have described wanting, I see around $200 in materials and maybe 3 hours of work to get the plumbing and electrical rerouted. Keep in mind I haven't visited the site in person and so could be missing one or many important details.

 

[mike93lx]

Shark bite is a brand that sells push to connect fittings but also stuff like normal compression angle stops

 

[Firebrick43]

This doesn’t address your primary question, but when my wife wanted the slide out trash setup, I made some specific for the space.





Not really amazing work, as it was my first time using solid rivets, but it has worked well for over 7 years.

Would have been really awesome to paint them olive drab with 20mm armor piercing in yellow letters stenciled on the side!