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Mini-Split vs Gas or Electric Heat in Detached Garage - Detroit Area

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kngelv

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I have been doing a mini-split installation. For the past 3 weeks. I am normally a really heavy DIY guy (build race engines, tig weld fabrication, transmission rebuilds, NOBODY touches my fleet of cars except me) - but I'm just having really bad ju-ju with this mini-split installation, Every single step of the way, something has gone wrong. I bought a $400 installation kit, and the only thing that actually got used is a $35 wall mount bracket for the outdoor unit. Everything else broke, was too short, or just plain was thrown away for being useless. Now I am struggling with a leak... somewhere. Anybody have 500 psi nitrogen handy for leak testing? As of today, if I did it all over, considering that I live in the northern part of the country - I would gladly buy and install a propane furnace with some duct work. Route the heat exactly where it is needed and only run the furnace when I am in the shop. I did this once before, and it only took me a week total for the installation. All the parts for the furnace were available at the big orange box, as opposed to special ordering HVAC stuff from the internet, seemingly every other day. The total installation cost was about half of what I have already spent in parts alone for the mini-split. Screw the operating cost of propane (or natural gas, if you have it available) - you might waste 5x as much just getting a mini-split working, keeping it working, buying all kinds of special stuff, or discovering how much your local HVAC guy charges (sorry HVAC guys, you aren't exactly cheap and I really do appreciate why not).

Thank you for putting up with my rant. I would say that I feel much better now, but I need several beers before that happens, and I need to get started on that. Best of luck with whatever route you take.
Sorry to hear this. I'm the OP of this thread and my ceiling was finally done today so electrical and a heat source is my next step. Guys at work tell me how easy the Mr. Cool DIY mini-splits are but I sure read a lot of cautionary tales regarding them. I'm still undecided.

James
 
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Torque&Recoil

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Sorry to hear this. I'm the OP of this thread and my ceiling was finally done today so electrical and a heat source is my next step. Guys at work tell me how easy the Mr. Cool DIY mini-splits are but I sure read a lot of cautionary tales regarding them. I'm still undecided.

James
Hey, maybe my diy installation experience is unusual. All of my friends think so, and yours may turn out to be a piece of cake. But let me toss this out for your consideration. What problem are you attempting to solve? I worked at Milford one year, and I got to experience Michigan winters and Michigan "summers". You are going to need heat like 6 months out of the year, and a/c for a couple of weeks. The mini-split will provide reliable dehumidification to help keep tools from rusting, which is a big bonus. But your major need is for heat. I am in basically the same situation (NE Ohio), and that and my installation challenges are why I am starting to think I may have made a mistake with the mini-split. But maybe I will post in 2 weeks that this LG mini works fantastic. Maybe.
 
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kngelv

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Hey, maybe my diy installation experience is unusual. All of my friends think so, and yours may turn out to be a piece of cake. But let me toss this out for your consideration. What problem are you attempting to solve? I worked at Milford one year, and I got to experience Michigan winters and Michigan "summers". You are going to need heat like 6 months out of the year, and a/c for a couple of weeks. The mini-split will provide reliable dehumidification to help keep tools from rusting, which is a big bonus. But your major need is for heat. I am in basically the same situation (NE Ohio), and that and my installation challenges are why I am starting to think I may have made a mistake with the mini-split. But maybe I will post in 2 weeks that this LG mini works fantastic. Maybe.
I don’t really need it for the air conditioning. It would be nice on occasion but it’s mainly for heat. The thing is I have a 5kw electric heater in my current garage and it’s quite noisy. I would like something a bit quieter and I don’t want to use gas. The mini splits are supposed to be like 300 to 400% efficient I figure I could just leave it set at 60 all the time and that way I could keep all my cordless stuff out in the garage during the winter instead of having to bring the batteries inside. It would also be better for the dirt bikes and other things. if I keep a regular electric heater out there and keep the same temperature, it would cost a lot more.

James
 

loganb

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I'm almost 3 years in with my Mr Cool minisplit on my attached garage in Omaha and only regret is waiting a year after I bought the house to install it....should've been in the first couple months.
 

ToolsRCool

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Dirt bikes? I'm in Plymouth. We need to do an outing together! Pic views better when opened, background....... The brakes are on the 8.8 going into my T-top foxbody.
 

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Paycheck

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I just learned about solar powered mini splits. Gave me a couple good ideas!
 

ericm

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Solar mini splits would be useful if you're in an area where it's primarily doing cooling. It's not going to make a lot of heat in the winter up north or in a place with a lot of clouds because the solar is limited. If you're on the grid and have 1:1 net metering it would be better to add grid tied panels so you can heat with your credits in the winter or heat/cool at night.
 
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kngelv

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Well I'm finally finishing the insulation and electrical work over the next ten days. Still have not picked up a mini-split. With all this tarriff stuff I should probably do this now.

James
 

MVGarageMahal

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I'm in the process of building a 24' x 24' detached garage. I live just south of Detroit so we get plenty of cold. My current attached garage is well insulated and heated with a 5K electric heater that works well. It's too noisy for my liking so I want to go another direction in the new garage. My first thought was for the Mini-Split because they are supposed to be quiet. My main use for it will be heat during the winter though using the air on occasion might be nice in the summer. I have read that Mini-Splits have a hard time heating vs cooling unless you leave them on all the time. Is this true? Not sure how much it would cost to keep it at say a constant 50 degrees and only bump it up when I am out there. Not really sure I want to run gas out there and don't know if I can find a quieter electric heater. The new garage will be primarily used for car/dirtbike/motorcycle repair and maintenance plus some welding/fabricating. The current garage will be 1/2 mountain bike shop and 1/2 miscellaneous.

James
James, I am also in Michigan, but in South Haven on the west side of the state. My well insulated garage is 24x40 and I am using a Pioneer mini split. My unit will heat the garage to 60+ degrees at 0f. I like using the app to turn on the unit about an hour before I head to my garage. The AC is more useful and very much appreciated when needed. No windows open, low humidity and no mosquitoes! I bought a unit one size larger and it is very quiet and efficient. Treat yourself to as good an environment as you can. It is well worth it.
Mike V
1982 Alfa Romeo GTV6 Supercharged
 
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kngelv

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I finished the electrical plus the ceiling and walls. I did 1" x 8" toongue-in-groove pine for the walls and blown cellulose to R-60 in the ceiling. R-23 rockwool walls and R-18 door. Super quiet and ten degrees cooler on a hot day. I ran power for a mini-split. I can't really find a DIY hper heat unit and have decided it might make sense to get an installer if the price is not too crazy and I get a decent warranty. I've had three estimates for a 18K BTU hyper heat mini-split so far. One was a Mitsubishi at $5K another with the exact same unit was $7.5K and the last one was for a Fujitsu at $5K. Two more estimates will get done on Monday. the Fujitsu guy was far and away the most professional of the three.

James
 

pembol

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I finished the electrical plus the ceiling and walls. I did 1" x 8" toongue-in-groove pine for the walls and blown cellulose to R-60 in the ceiling. R-23 rockwool walls and R-18 door. Super quiet and ten degrees cooler on a hot day. I ran power for a mini-split. I can't really find a DIY hper heat unit and have decided it might make sense to get an installer if the price is not too crazy and I get a decent warranty. I've had three estimates for a 18K BTU hyper heat mini-split so far. One was a Mitsubishi at $5K another with the exact same unit was $7.5K and the last one was for a Fujitsu at $5K. Two more estimates will get done on Monday. the Fujitsu guy was far and away the most professional of the three.

James
The non DIY direct to consumer models like Blueridge and Pioneer are not really much harder to install than the Mr Cool 'DIY' units and are available with hyper heat. The only real difference is that you need a vacuum pump and gauge set, which can be had for < $200. You can also do a pressurized leak test with dry nitrogen if you want to, but this is not entirely necessary if you have time to do a longer vacuum leak test. I just purchased a Blueridge 'S5' 24 kBTU system, which is a rebranded Gree Saphire for about $2500 - it is has very impressive low temperature heating performance.
 
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kngelv

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Thought I would update. Garage is pretty much complete. R-23 Rockwool in walls and R-60 cellulose in the ceiling and an R-18 Cloplay door. Still have not purchased anything yet. Definitely going with a mini-split. It's like 2K more for a professionally installed Fujitsu vs a Mr. Cool DIY. I don't really like the super long lineset with the Mr. Cool. It's 25' and I only need like 10' at the most. I had six quotes for various units and only one guy was very professional. He was $5400 for a Fujitsu 18K Hyper-Heat. Does anyone know a good HVAC place in metro Detroit? I'm just south of the city.

James

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WisJim

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Seven or eight years ago we had 2 Fujitsu hyper heats installed in our old farmhouse, primarily to heat in the fall and spring when it was too warm to run our wood furnace full time, and too cold to not have heat. We also wanted to use our surplus solar generated electricity in the fall because of the way our utility zeroed out the annual accounts on December 31st. One winter we were gone a lot on vacation and the minisplits kept the house over 60 degrees when it got to 25 below outside. No other heat in the house. We have since moved but the units are still working fine for the new owners.
 

lund

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I'm in the SE Michigan area and never once wished for A/C in a well insulated garage. A hanging NG heater has been trouble free for 18 years.
Surprised you say this: I am in central Michigan and it gets pretty hot and humid for a few solid weeks out of the year. An AC would also serve to control humidity to make more comfortable and control rusting etc. My garage can get like an oven and it is very uncomfortable some weeks doing car maintenance etc. In my case the roof is not insulated so I am getting extra heat on hot days ... but even outside the garage can be 90s at high humidity. For me I have a lot going on so I cannot usually choose to avoid work when I have time to do it. So it is often comfort be damned!
 

logical

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Surprised you say this: I am in central Michigan and it gets pretty hot and humid for a few solid weeks out of the year. An AC would also serve to control humidity to make more comfortable and control rusting etc. My garage can get like an oven and it is very uncomfortable some weeks doing car maintenance etc. In my case the roof is not insulated so I am getting extra heat on hot days ... but even outside the garage can be 90s at high humidity. For me I have a lot going on so I cannot usually choose to avoid work when I have time to do it. So it is often comfort be damned!
I guess I don't mind heat. I have windows and ceiling fans and very good insulation above and haven't noticed and excessive humidity.
 

whateg01

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I'm in the SE Michigan area and never once wished for A/C in a well insulated garage. A hanging NG heater has been trouble free for 18 years.
Some people have never wished for power windows or cruise control either. But there's still a market for both, it seems. If something has to get done, I get it done. But I noticed a lot of stuff that didn't "have to" get done and was set aside for better weather with no AC or heat in the shop got done sooner when that wasn't an reason not to work on it.

As somebody else mentioned, humidity control is another good reason to have heat and AC. This year has been rainy and it's been blowing so a lot of water gets under the garage door. If I'm on the road that week, that water just sits there and evaporates into the air in the shop. First couple times it happened this summer,I had the AC off because I wasn't going to be home. Now I just leave it running. So much stuff has rust on it from those first couple times it's happened, it's sad.
 

logical

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Some people have never wished for power windows or cruise control either. But there's still a market for both, it seems. If something has to get done, I get it done. But I noticed a lot of stuff that didn't "have to" get done and was set aside for better weather with no AC or heat in the shop got done sooner when that wasn't an reason not to work on it.

As somebody else mentioned, humidity control is another good reason to have heat and AC. This year has been rainy and it's been blowing so a lot of water gets under the garage door. If I'm on the road that week, that water just sits there and evaporates into the air in the shop. First couple times it happened this summer,I had the AC off because I wasn't going to be home. Now I just leave it running. So much stuff has rust on it from those first couple times it's happened, it's sad.
I am not trying to influence anyone, it's simply my honest experience and opinion.
 
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theoldwizard1

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I'm in the SE Michigan area and never once wished for A/C in a well insulated garage. A hanging NG heater has been trouble free for 18 years.
Depending on the number of hours of usage per year, a heat pump will pay for itself and save you money within a few years compared to NG heater.
 
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kngelv

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Well I finally made a decision. I scheduled an October 6th install for the Fujitsu 18K Hyper-Heat unit. I'm basically pay an extra $2000.00 to have it professionally installed versus doing a Mr. Cool self-install. I like the fact that I'll have a better warranty, a higher Seer-2 rating and that it's good to -15 degrees with a lower efficiency loss as it gets colder. The Fujitsu is a nicer unit and I won't have 25' of lineset coiled up outside. I plan on leaving it at 62 degrees all winter.

James
 

pembol

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Well I finally made a decision. I scheduled an October 6th install for the Fujitsu 18K Hyper-Heat unit. I'm basically pay an extra $2000.00 to have it professionally installed versus doing a Mr. Cool self-install. I like the fact that I'll have a better warranty, a higher Seer-2 rating and that it's good to -15 degrees with a lower efficiency loss as it gets colder. The Fujitsu is a nicer unit and I won't have 25' of lineset coiled up outside. I plan on leaving it at 62 degrees all winter.

James
Good call - the Mr Cool DIY units are good air conditioners, but not great heat pumps for a cold climate.
 

pcmeiners

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I plan on leaving it at 62 degrees all winter.
Perfect, if you have a perfectly dry garage you could get away with 50° if yyou setback in off hours but if any water is used in the garage (like a spill or sink overflow) you could get areas which allow rust. Had that situation in mine as I had washer hose come out of the drain. After that situation I brought the temp up to 62° for night set back. The Fujitsu units cost so little to run. In the garage I keep the front plastic cover off, you can then see when to clean the easy to remove/reinstall filter.
Seer is not that important in Detroit, they are most important in the very hot states, HSPF is the important number for most of colder states, and Fujitsu low temps have a high HSPF number.
 
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kngelv

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Just an update. The wall unit is in and the linesets are run. I had some landscaping done which was going to raise the ground level behind my garage so my installer held off on installing the condenser. We installed the pad and levelled it but can't walk on the sod just yet. Should be installed in about 10 days.

James


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pembol

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The Mr Cool Gen5s are rated for good output even at single digits

The more recent Mr Cools are definitely better, but still not great at low temperatures. For example the 24 kBtu Gen 5 advertises that it 'works down to -13F' but if you acually look at the specs the output at -13F is only 10 kBtu. Even at 17F you have already lost 1/3 of the capacity.

In comparison, the Gree Sapphire in at lt's rebranded forms actually beats it's rating with 28 kBtu at 17F and is at 19 kBtu at -20F. The efficiency doesn't drop off nearly as fast either.
 

pcmeiners

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AHRI certificate specs are based on information given by the manufacturers on the honor system, NO one checks the validity, not AHRI or any government agency. Gree has published impossible specs in the past as other manufacturers have so AHRI should not be used for verifying specs on any minisplit. . AHRI is as honorable as JD Power and associates.
On the other hand, Home Depot sells Gree units and would trust Gree more due to this over any AHRI delivered information.
 

shade

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The more recent Mr Cools are definitely better, but still not great at low temperatures. For example the 24 kBtu Gen 5 advertises that it 'works down to -13F' but if you acually look at the specs the output at -13F is only 10 kBtu. Even at 17F you have already lost 1/3 of the capacity.

In comparison, the Gree Sapphire in at lt's rebranded forms actually beats it's rating with 28 kBtu at 17F and is at 19 kBtu at -20F. The efficiency doesn't drop off nearly as fast either.
@pembol do you have the spec sheet for the gen 5s? I couldn't find one that showed output vs temp.
 

pembol

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@pembol do you have the spec sheet for the gen 5s? I couldn't find one that showed output vs temp.
I couldn't find a spec sheet from Mr Cool that shows the output and COP vs temperature, which is kind of a red flag. The only thing I did find was their entry on the NEEEP list (linked above) which is where I got the numbers.

 

pcmeiners

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Search google on.... Mr Cool COP vs temperature...... choose images, when you find what you want be doubtful if the data is from Mr Cool or AHRI . Difficult to find honest data. As far a red flags, Gree stated they had a SEER 38 on some of their splits 1 1/2 years ago, it was BS. NEEP=AHRI


"NEEP gets product information primarily from manufacturers through a dedicated online portal for products they want listed, particularly for their Cold Climate Air Source Heat Pump (ccASHP) Product List."

It is the same old honor system just like AHRI. What ever the manufacturers feeds them they print.
 

TheClaw

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Just read this entire thread. I'm in the process of building a 16x36 1 1/2 story garage. I'm probably more confused now then when I started. I'm getting a couple of quotes from local (Chicago area) HVAC companies just to ballpark numbers. My electrician says she's certified to install a MS. So if I have her do it, how do I chose a unit. If the data you all are talking about is not reliable, where do you go to size and choose a unit?
 

pcmeiners

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where do you go to size and choose a unit?

There is no "go to" site.

For starters it would be to your advantage to go through the thread in this sub forum, as much as you can take, yes it is overwhelming at times.
There are many thread concerning mini splits installations in all different sized garages.

If you have NitroBid you may need it it when you get the quotes. :)
 
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kngelv

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Just read this entire thread. I'm in the process of building a 16x36 1 1/2 story garage. I'm probably more confused now then when I started. I'm getting a couple of quotes from local (Chicago area) HVAC companies just to ballpark numbers. My electrician says she's certified to install a MS. So if I have her do it, how do I chose a unit. If the data you all are talking about is not reliable, where do you go to size and choose a unit?

I feel your pain on the confusion. I talked to a few people at work who went the Mr. Cool route and also our AC guy who used to install HVAC on the outside. The big three are Mitsubishi, Fujitsu and Daikin. There are a lot out there that are re-branded Midea. Nearly all the ones with traditional American names are made by Midea like Carrier, Bryant etc. I went with Fujitsu because the guy who quoted me was the most professional of the bunch and had a fair price. I really wanted a unit that worked well in low temperatures. Mitsubishi calls theirs Hyper Heat and Fujitsu is XLTH. The self install Mr. Cools fall off a BTU cliff as the temperature drops and don't provide close to the rated BTU's when the temp drops to zero. They are down over 30%. The ones that do well at those temps might lose 3-5%. I am keeping mine at 62 degrees all winter. I'm paying about $1600.00 more for a professional install than I would have with a self-install. I'm getting a better unit and a better warranty too. I'm ok with spending a little more for the piece of mind.

James
 

ericm

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I paid around $9k for two 24k Mitsubishi units installed. That's roughly $1200 each more than Mr Cool. Daikins would have been about $500 less. I mostly did it because I was short on time to do the install but I also got units with better cold weather performance.
 
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kngelv

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Well its's finally done. The installer came out today to finish the job. I had a slight issue because the composite base he left and that I leveled was too small for the stand. I had to buy four large pavers and four bags of paver base material while they got a new composite base. They dug out the dirt and re-leveled everything. It's now set at 76 degrees because I want to see how long it takes to heat up. It went from 55 to 60 in about 40 minutes and thats with the thermometer at the farthest point from the wall unit. The air is 110 degrees as it blows out. It's my first mini-split and I'm amazed at how quiet it is. Once it gets to 76 I'll turn it down to 62 and leave it at that temp all winter. BTW the garage is 24' x 24' with a 12' ceiling. The walls have R-23 Rockwool, the ceiling R-60 cellulose and the door is R-18 polyurethane.

James


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theoldwizard1

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For the average consumer, it is very difficult to compare the PERFORMANCE of different mini-splits.

Price and installation (if you choose that) only tell part of the story. Operating cost (electricity) is the other BIG factor. Whatever you do, if if you live in an area that the temps get below 50F and heating is required, stay away from and heat pump that has a "heat strip" !
 

pcmeiners

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stay away from and heat pump that has a "heat strip" !
.....because the heat pump offered is older technology that no body would buy if they have any knowledge of heat pumps, great for the company selling/installing's profit margin. If offered, your getting screwed.

Kngelv nice install , good height off the ground for snow height. :thumbup:
 
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