First time building a storage shed, squaring the frame questions

[peejay75]

Good day, all,

Finally getting around to building a much-needed storage shed, and I have a few questions about making sure the 2x4 foundation/base frame is square, and what to do if it's not.

- is it safe to assume you can't do any checking for square until all four corners of the frame are secured (tightly? loosely?) with fasteners?
- it is almost guaranteed that you will have to adjust the frame
- once the diagonals have been checked and the frame corrected (by knocking, stretching, etc) you will need some sort of additional piece of wood to keep the frame square, until the floor decking is installed?

Thanks!

 

[DGersic]

I built my shed walls flat on the ground. They were built square. When I raised them, I used C clamps to hold them together at the corners. Squared them up, and nailed them down.

 

[Rst277]

Good day, all,

Finally getting around to building a much-needed storage shed, and I have a few questions about making sure the 2x4 foundation/base frame is square, and what to do if it's not.

- is it safe to assume you can't do any checking for square until all four corners of the frame are secured (tightly? loosely?) with fasteners?
- it is almost guaranteed that you will have to adjust the frame
- once the diagonals have been checked and the frame corrected (by knocking, stretching, etc) you will need some sort of additional piece of wood to keep the frame square, until the floor decking is installed?

Thanks!

If you're squaring it up, you should install the decking immediately afterwards. Usually once you get it square, the wood itself is heavy enough to stay like that, but you can always screw a 2x4 on top diagonally to hold things in place. The plywood decking is square so that should also help, once you nail it on, you're good.

 

[Tom Sestito]

What he said ^.

Frame it, square it, sheet it - move on to walls using the same process.

 

[peejay75]

Thank you (all)!

 

[58Yeoman]

Use the 3.4.5 rule.

Google Search

 

[PugetDude]

Use the 3.4.5 rule.

Google Search

6-8-10 if the shed is big enough. then check the diagonals.

 

[Fixr]

6-8-10 if the shed is big enough. then check the diagonals.

12-16-20, too.

 

[mikedodge]

Build the frame on the ground, put your decking on it and move the ends of the frame around as required to match it, secure the flooring and move on.

 

[Codyboy]

You can use the 3 4 5 rule or multiples there of but won't be able to check the diagonals from corner to corner.
I would use it to get started but use A2+B2=C2 to get the true diagonal length.
Also make certain your components are exactly the same length for the opposing sides.

 

[CraigStu]

I do measuring as I lay down the 2x4s to get it close. Then I lay down the plywood or whatever flooring and push the framing to match the flooring. I figure the 4x8 sheets are a better indicator than me screwing w/ a tape measure.

 

[whateg01]

You can use the 3 4 5 rule or multiples there of but won't be able to check the diagonals from corner to corner.
I would use it to get started but use A2+B2=C2 to get the true diagonal length.
Also make certain your components are exactly the same length for the opposing sides.

Did I miss the reason op can't check diagonals? 345 is ok, but it's more prone to error.

 

[PCustoms]

You can use the 3 4 5 rule or multiples there of but won't be able to check the diagonals from corner to corner.
I would use it to get started but use A2+B2=C2 to get the true diagonal length.
Also make certain your components are exactly the same length for the opposing sides.

Did I miss the reason op can't check diagonals? 345 is ok, but it's more prone to error.

Pulling a tape corner to corner involves no math, is easier (you're not marking/holding the legs) and is dead on.


That said, for a shed, make sure the cuts are the same and squaring to the plywood would be fine

 

[Codyboy]

Pulling a tape corner to corner involves no math, is easier (your not marking/holding the legs) and is dead on.


That said, for a shed, make sure the cuts are the same and squaring to the plywood would be fine

I guess I'm talking more about laying out a string line and batter boards to set the corner blocks.
I guess you could actually cut the boards for the perimeter and then just measure the diagonals. Then position the whole thing where you want it.
But if you need to start from a specific point and square it to another point its better to do the math.
Small stuff maybe like a small shed or a picture frame is OK. Larger stuff will be less laborious than dragging around 100s of lbs of lumber.
The math ain't that hard.
ETA
Establish a corner and pull all dimensions from it.

 

[peejay75]

Thanks, again, everyone! I am currently at the step where I need to cut down the outer 2x8's so that the resulting width of the frame (2x8's inside the 2x12's) will be 8' (12' x 8' shed). Then I planned to measure the diagonals (already nervous about how to hook the tape measure on the corners!) and proceed from there.

(I did see an example build where 3-4-5 was used, I don't think I had a preference for one method over the other, diagonals seemed "easier", in theory?)

 

[mikedodge]

Thanks, again, everyone! I am currently at the step where I need to cut down the outer 2x8's so that the resulting width of the frame (2x8's inside the 2x12's) will be 8' (12' x 8' shed). Then I planned to measure the diagonals (already nervous about how to hook the tape measure on the corners!) and proceed from there.

(I did see an example build where 3-4-5 was used, I don't think I had a preference for one method over the other, diagonals seemed "easier", in theory?)

Sounds like you're putting too much thought into it. Make the 12x8 perimeter, add the joists into it, put your planks or sheeting over it and use that to square it off and you're done. Or use a big square on one of the corners. As long as you've cut the sides to the same two lengths it'll be square.

 

[peejay75]

As long as you've cut the sides to the same two lengths it'll be square.

That's what I'm hoping happens!

 

[OccupantRJ]

Thanks, again, everyone! I am currently at the step where I need to cut down the outer 2x8's so that the resulting width of the frame (2x8's inside the 2x12's) will be 8' (12' x 8' shed). Then I planned to measure the diagonals (already nervous about how to hook the tape measure on the corners!) and proceed from there.

(I did see an example build where 3-4-5 was used, I don't think I had a preference for one method over the other, diagonals seemed "easier", in theory?)

You can hook the tape measure on the corner and then set a mug of coffee on it to hold it in place for you. Win, win! It’s easy, don’t sweat it. Be sure you have enough mid supports for the floor to prevent sagging from weight, depending on what goes inside. I would want 6 perimeter supports and two in the center area. I have helped several people jack up sheds over the years to add mid support due to sagging over time with heavy loading.

 

[no704]

It’s just a shead! But best is to check corner to corner on diagonal.

 

[Fixr]

That's what I'm hoping happens!

If you have cut the framing to the right lengths and fastened it together right, it will be fine. Any 4x8 sheet goods will be fine for squaring it up. If the sheets don't work out being square with the framing, fix the framing. 4x8 sheets are plenty trustworthy for squaring a shed. Sheet goods and framing lumber are mostly made in 2 foot intervals for just that reason

 

[Fixr]

You can use the 3 4 5 rule or multiples there of but won't be able to check the diagonals from corner to corner.
I would use it to get started but use A2+B2=C2 to get the true diagonal length.
Also make certain your components are exactly the same length for the opposing sides.

No need to do A2+B2=C2. As long as the shed is intended to be rectangular and the perimeter framing members are equally cut to nominal lengths, just match the diagonal measurements. It will be square enough for shed purposes. It's not rocket surgery.

Now, having the floor framing level and flat can be more complicated.

 

[545_days]

12-16-20, too.

No less than 30-40-50. This is Garage Journal after all. OP needs a larger shed and we are here to encourage him.

 

[PCustoms]

No less than 30-40-50. This is Garage Journal after all. OP needs a larger shed and we are here to encourage him.

If you're building a 30x40 shed, just use a 100' tape and check the diagonal.

 

[mike93lx]

Overthinking it is OK. You're new to this and moving slow will help control mistakes and rework.

Just hook the tape on the corner... Nothing special needs to happen. Try to be consistent from side to side but if you can get it to within an 1/8", you are more than good

 

[mike93lx]

If you're building a 30x40 shed, just use a 100' tape and check the diagonal.

Some might say that it could be done with just 50'

 

[545_days]

Some might say that it could be done with just 50'

Yeah but if he already has a 100' tape he should build 60' x 80'. Otherwise the last 50' of his tape is wasted!

 

[mike93lx]

Yeah but if he already has a 100' tape he should build 60' x 80'. Otherwise the last 50' of his tape is wasted!

Can't argue with that logic!

 

[peejay75]

Update...

Ok, everybody, FINALLY got screws in all four corners! (What's it been, a month? Near record time for me!)

Anyhoo, help me feel better about this...3-out-of-4 corners, the ends met flush, but this one didn't...that happens sometimes, right? Different tolerances? Since this is "just a shed" it's ok, but if this were a room addition or something, would I need to figure out why the ends aren't flush, or sand/plane them flush, or keep sourcing lumber until I hit the jackpot? Back to the shed frame, is this gonna happen again...and again...and again, once I start adding in the joists?

(Thanks for everyone's help and input!)

 

[mikedodge]

You mean the width? It looks like the bottom of that bard is also thst much higher but hard to tell? If so just sit it on a flat surface push the higher board down and stick the screws in. If they're not the same width stick something under that board to raise it so both pieces are flush at the top.

 

[peejay75]

The left end of the 8' board is flush in the corners on the far left (out of picture) and the right end of the 12' board is flush with the opposite 8' board. I'm hoping it's just that the 8' board is "less tall" than the 12' board at the joint, but haven't measured yet. Screws are already in so this is more of a "next time, do this..." reach-out! (Oh, I believe the bottoms of the "joint boards" are flush, too...if they are, it's a wood problem, not a me problem, right? )

 

[mikedodge]

If you were trying to get the ends flush it could be one isn't cut square and its that bit of an angle that made that other side a bit higher. The big thing is make sure that outer corner is flush to eachother.. that the 2x4 on the right in your pic isn't overhanging the end of the other one, that the top to bottom height is flat and call it done.
You don't have to measure the "height" just check the bottom to see if they are sitting flush or the one on the left really is sitting a bit higher. It looks like that's what's going on but hard to see in that pic.

 

[peejay75]

it could be one isn't cut square and its that bit of an angle that made that other side a bit higher.

Knowing me and my sawing "skills" , this is the most probable reason! Will report back once I get a few joists in.

 

[Shiftless]

Knowing me and my sawing "skills" , this is the most probable reason!

Did you use a chop saw to make those cuts or did you just put the board over your leg and cut off the excess holding on to your skil saw with just one hand?

 

[PugetDude]

Overthinking it is OK. You're new to this and moving slow will help control mistakes and rework.

Just hook the tape on the corner... Nothing special needs to happen. Try to be consistent from side to side but if you can get it to within an 1/8", you are more than good

I hired an old framer many years ago to help me rough in a 2-1/2 story lake cabin. Perched on the side of steep hill, difficult access, nothing was easy. I already had the ground floor joists in place and was pretty happy that my diagonals were within 3/32"....when he measured them his reaction was total disgust.." Oh, I see it's going to be that kind of job..." he was a total **** but I did learn quite a bit from him. If you start off with a floor that is square and level it makes everything after that so much easier. Or, you can fight your initial mistakes all the way to the top....
Good luck with your project!

 

[nadogail]

3-4-5- triangles will check any 90 degree corner , measuring diagonals checks only rectangles .

 

[Shiftless]

my diagonals were within 3/32"....when he measured them his reaction was total disgust.." Oh, I see it's going to be that kind of job

I can’t imagine expecting a structure made from commercial grade lumber ending up even that close. What are you going to do about less than laser straight boards? Plane them? What about variations in width and thickness from board to board? Plane some more? How flat can you get a floor supported with lumber? Crazy **** there!!!

 

[PugetDude]

I can’t imagine expecting a structure made from commercial grade lumber ending up even that close. What are you going to do about less than laser straight boards? Plane them? What about variations in width and thickness from board to board? Plane some more? How flat can you get a floor supported with lumber? Crazy **** there!!!

The guy was an old school journeyman carpenter, and a stickler for accuracy. First couple of days were interesting, to say the least. I figured out a trick that calmed him down somewhat. He would bark out a measurement for a 2x, I would cut it and then lightly rub a carpenters pencil on the cut line. He thought I had been sufficiently chastised and had learned to split a pencil line with a Skilsaw... (or maybe he just gave up and quit bitching. )

 

[Shiftless]

The guy was an old school journeyman carpenter, and a stickler for accuracy.

Back in the ‘80s when we were getting established my father in law helped me with home fix up and small construction projects. He was a machinist and of course accustomed to measuring parts to the thousandth of an inch. When he and I were building stuff and cutting lumber and checking measurements, one of the things I heard him say many times was this…

”Close enough for a carpenter”

 

[mike93lx]

I hired an old framer many years ago to help me rough in a 2-1/2 story lake cabin. Perched on the side of steep hill, difficult access, nothing was easy. I already had the ground floor joists in place and was pretty happy that my diagonals were within 3/32"....when he measured them his reaction was total disgust.." Oh, I see it's going to be that kind of job..." he was a total **** but I did learn quite a bit from him. If you start off with a floor that is square and level it makes everything after that so much easier. Or, you can fight your initial mistakes all the way to the top....
Good luck with your project!

I have never heard of a carpenter measuring 32nds for framing. Don't even think I own a tape with 32nds on it

 

[Codyboy]

You mean the width? It looks like the bottom of that bard is also thst much higher but hard to tell? If so just sit it on a flat surface push the higher board down and stick the screws in. If they're not the same width stick something under that board to raise it so both pieces are flush at the top.

Yes use shims on the narrower board to bring g the top edges flush.
It's not too late to do this unless the floor boards are already screwed and glued.