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ZMotorsports Shop Projects 2.0

WoodsTruck

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Jan 12, 2013
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I bought a 110v MIG welding in about '91-'92. Upgraded to a Hobart 110/220 a couple years back. Instead of trying to sell the old 110, I had my wife post to FBMP as a "free" item (I don't have a book of faces). I guess there is some interest but I have not heard from anyone directly yet. Figured I'd just soon give it away than try to get $50 and a lot of hassle with it.
 
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zmotorsports

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I wonder if putting stuff like that on ebay is any better? I have seen listings that stipulate "local pick-up only, no shipping." Likely just a different set of hassles.

As was posted above, if I think that a price is reasonable for condition and rarity I buy it. If I don't think it's reasonable or close to that, I pass it by. If I think they're only a little high on the price I'll ask if there's any movement in the price as I know some folks price high expecting people to haggle. If they will move then I'll pursue it. If they're stuck on that price then it's "GLWS" and move on.

I agree and I do the same thing. I'll ask if there is flexibility in the price and test the water. I also don't fault a person for doing the same, what I do fault them for is just lowballing right off the bat, and worse, before they even think about how to haul it or see it.



Wonder if he got the rest of the Hot Dogger with that sled. I had one of our old grass drag sleds for a few years, 94 VX500 short track. When I sold it, it had a set of 600 cylinders, Reicher twin pipes, 136 x 2 track, Yamaha XT long travel suspension. It had a turbo for a season but it was too hard to tune, and a bit snappy for trail/road riding. Snow conditions here are very hit & miss so I sold it after a few seasons. Easier to dirt bike in slop than snowmobile in it.

No, he didn't get the other part of the hot dogger/hot lunch accessory, I asked already. :LOL: The group I ran with sledding had those but I could never bring myself to strap one of those things on my chromed or HTP coated pipes. :bounce:

I remember when we first started sledding in the late 80's, the 121" tracks were the norm and when I installed a couple of 133" or 136" tracks along with rolling chaincases, there were very few on the mountains around here outfitted as such. By the time we got out of sledding in 2009 we were running 151" to 159" tracks, all aluminum tapered tunnels and I was fabbing suspension for ours and my clients from 4130 chromoly and even did a few custom bulkheads out of 4130 tubing clad with OEM belly pans and hoods. Loved building that custom stuff back in the day and dialing them in on the mountain. That being said, kind of glad I am not involved with it any longer.
 
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zmotorsports

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Thank you for the response. I would like to try to find one of these and/or make one myself. I've never seen that method used for diagnosing proper function of the float - I'm very keen on that as many of the old machines that I play with, I find myself fighting the float occasionally (Older Honda Motorcycles, typically).

I obtained my first gauge when I attended a small engine seminar back in the late 80's just out of high school. I still have my Walbro kit that I bought that contains the test pump/gauge as well as other small tools for rebuilding and repairing small carbs, such as drivers for seats and small slide hammer for removing the seats. I'll try to remember to post up a couple pictures of the kit. I wore the gauge out long ago to where it leaks off, even after replacing the O-rings on the plunger. The one I used and showed in the pictures is a relatively new gauge/pump assembly that I purchased about 8 or so years ago.
 

pancholasvegas

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I obtained my first gauge when I attended a small engine seminar back in the late 80's just out of high school. I still have my Walbro kit that I bought that contains the test pump/gauge as well as other small tools for rebuilding and repairing small carbs, such as drivers for seats and small slide hammer for removing the seats. I'll try to remember to post up a couple pictures of the kit. I wore the gauge out long ago to where it leaks off, even after replacing the O-rings on the plunger. The one I used and showed in the pictures is a relatively new gauge/pump assembly that I purchased about 8 or so years ago.
Thanks for the information, Mike. If it is not too much trouble, would you be willing or able to show the part number or a link to the one that you are currently using? I'd like to find something similar.

Thank you for your willingness to engage with us on the forum - I learn a lot from your thread and I enjoy how you do things "The Right Way."

I've spent a lot of time wrenching with people who are satisfied with "Nobody is going to notice that," and I'm always looking to get to "The Next Level," and finding threads like yours full of likeminded people who "Get it," is very inspiring.
 
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zmotorsports

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Thanks for the information, Mike. If it is not too much trouble, would you be willing or able to show the part number or a link to the one that you are currently using? I'd like to find something similar.

Thank you for your willingness to engage with us on the forum - I learn a lot from your thread and I enjoy how you do things "The Right Way."

I've spent a lot of time wrenching with people who are satisfied with "Nobody is going to notice that," and I'm always looking to get to "The Next Level," and finding threads like yours full of likeminded people who "Get it," is very inspiring.


Thank you very much. I am flattered by your comments and thank you for continuing to follow along, despite my rants. ;)

I will take some pictures tonight of my original Walbro test kit, but the one I recently purchased is a lesser expensive version. I think this is very similar if not the same one I purchased last time.



Here's another one.
 

SilverJimmy

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Prescott/Flagstaff, AZ
Last week when it started cooling off it became apparent that my wife and I didn’t have enough firewood for the coming winter. We have always cut our own, we actually enjoy going out in the woods and spending a day or two cutting and loading it up. But as we are in the process of moving and are not done with that we haven’t had time to get this years wood so we looked at our options. Local place that sells and delivers firewood wants $500 for a cord of shaggy juniper, $650 for oak or Alligator Juniper! Then the wife finds a guy on NextDoor who is selling oak and alligator juniper for $400 a cord split and delivered. She messages the guy and gets his info and I call him to ask about the firewood, what length, split sizes, no spare tire hiding under the cord of wood (happened to me once years ago!) just the usual checking the guy out stuff. I agree to his price and arrange delivery for later that day. When he and his “wife” show up in his beat to **** Ford 1/2 ton pickup they both unload the wood and then start asking about my hot rod they can see sitting in the garage and then commenting about my new shop and how I must have a lot of nice tools in it….
Yup, RED FLAGS are waving! They drive away with their heads on a swivel checking everything out in our yard. Later that day I’m really not feeling real good about them, so I look on the innertube to see what’s up with Paul Bunyan. Luckily Arizona has the website Az Judical and you can do a search of public records. Well, old Paul is a convicted felon, 3rd degree Burglary back in 97, went to the Big House for many years and he just got arrested last month for more crimes!!!
Yup, should have known, but I let my guard down. Now a real good friend is helping me figure out a security system for the house and shop. Only thing that makes me not overly concerned is that I do have both his real cell number and his real name. But I am kicking myself for allowing that vermin onto our property!
 

Swanny1953

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Thank you very much. I am flattered by your comments and thank you for continuing to follow along, despite my rants. ;)

I will take some pictures tonight of my original Walbro test kit, but the one I recently purchased is a lesser expensive version. I think this is very similar if not the same one I purchased last time.



Here's another one.
Mike, are these appropriate to use on auto carbs as well? I have a carb from a '39 Buick that I have to rebuild as it was used with "rusty" gas for quite a bit!!
Thanks.
 

ntsqd

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Our next door neighbor retired and moved to a rural area where his property had a ~3 acre pond/lake on it. There was an old boat on the property, leaning against one of the trees. He blew hole in it with a shotgun. (I was never clear if by accident or deliberate.) A neighbor visited and commented about the new hole in the old boat. "Yeah, I thought there was someone prowling around out there a coupla nights ago. Blew hole in my danged boat!"
A day later he's visiting his lawyer in a town 20-ish miles away and the first thing the lawyer says is "You ARE being careful out there, aren't you?"
That crazy ole ex Californian has a shotgun and no trigger control!
:)
 

pancholasvegas

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Nov 6, 2017
Messages
261
Thank you very much. I am flattered by your comments and thank you for continuing to follow along, despite my rants. ;)

I will take some pictures tonight of my original Walbro test kit, but the one I recently purchased is a lesser expensive version. I think this is very similar if not the same one I purchased last time.



Here's another one.
Thank you - added to the cart!
 

bugnut

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Mike, thanks for the links and explanation on the float setting. May need to put one in the cart.

As for the sales and people, recent past i picked up 2 new to me trailers and had 2 to trailers to part with. I took them and a couple of chainsaws and I forget what else to a local auctioneer. Dropped off, signed paperwork and complete my end in less than 10 minutes. A few days later a check less 10% arrived. No meeting with idiots and sacrificing time involved. I'll do it again, YMMV.
 

4 FN 27

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I am just about to that point. My son and I had this discussion on Saturday while working on his wife's car. We are so done with dealing with trying to sell things, we are thinking twice before buying and when it comes to selling, we'll sit on them before dealing with people. In all honesty, I should have just let the tire shop have these and try to resell vs. my blood pressure rising trying to sell them.

Years ago Mike we were trying to hire as everyone else in Manufacturing was. Job Fairs. Recruiters, Ads on various Help wanted sites.

The topic of "Self Deselection" came up. Basically the process is to have the person self deselect before you as the interviewer have to even talk to them.

I applied this process when I sell things on FBMP or Craigslist. Here is an ad I just took down.

$40 each

Curt PN C45341 (the one in the middle)

Curt Heavy Duty Forged Ball Mount for 2" Hitches

- 3" Rise - 4" Drop - 17,000 lbs 1 - 1/4 Shank Diameter. Fits 2 Inch Receiver.

Curt PN C45342: Sold, Sold, Sold

Curt PN C45458: Sold, Sold, Sold

These sell for $79-83 on etrailer plus shipping. Fleet Farm they are close to $100 each. At roughly 50 cents on the dollar I will not haggle on the price. It is what it is.


Rules of engagement:

I will not answer to: "Is this still available."

Lower Ballers: F-Off.

Trades: No!!!

If you are lonely and want to talk, please call your mother.


Been doing this for years. Works for me.

On occasion I do get the smart *** that replies with "Is this still available." or a Low Ball offer or an insult about my mother.

About a year ago I listed all the Sleds for sale. Had a person ping each ad systematically in opposition to the "Rules of engagement". Did my usual thing, a search and found they were a Professor at a WI University. I sent them a polite email to their professional email address asking they stop pinging my ads.

I got a formal apology asking me not to escalate the issue any further.

I enjoy selling things online. The buyer either plays by my rules or they can go F themselves.
 

PugetDude

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Superstition Mountains, AZ
Years ago Mike we were trying to hire as everyone else in Manufacturing was. Job Fairs. Recruiters, Ads on various Help wanted sites.

The topic of "Self Deselection" came up. Basically the process is to have the person self deselect before you as the interviewer have to even talk to them.

I applied this process when I sell things on FBMP or Craigslist. Here is an ad I just took down.

$40 each

Curt PN C45341 (the one in the middle)

Curt Heavy Duty Forged Ball Mount for 2" Hitches

- 3" Rise - 4" Drop - 17,000 lbs 1 - 1/4 Shank Diameter. Fits 2 Inch Receiver.

Curt PN C45342: Sold, Sold, Sold

Curt PN C45458: Sold, Sold, Sold

These sell for $79-83 on etrailer plus shipping. Fleet Farm they are close to $100 each. At roughly 50 cents on the dollar I will not haggle on the price. It is what it is.


Rules of engagement:

I will not answer to: "Is this still available."

Lower Ballers: F-Off.

Trades: No!!!

If you are lonely and want to talk, please call your mother.


Been doing this for years. Works for me.

On occasion I do get the smart *** that replies with "Is this still available." or a Low Ball offer or an insult about my mother.

About a year ago I listed all the Sleds for sale. Had a person ping each ad systematically in opposition to the "Rules of engagement". Did my usual thing, a search and found they were a Professor at a WI University. I sent them a polite email to their professional email address asking they stop pinging my ads.

I got a formal apology asking me not to escalate the issue any further.

I enjoy selling things online. The buyer either plays by my rules or they can go F themselves.
But, the question remains...will you deliver?
 

Grant Gunderson

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May 17, 2013
Messages
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Location
Bellingham, WA
Mike, like you I’ve been running a small business out of my home garage. 99% of those customers are great and I don’t mind them coming by. In fact I enjoy chatting a bit with the regulars, and they keep growing the business telling their friends. What I do is very specialized and not cheap and those customers know exactly what they are getting into before coming by and are great to deal with.

I’ve also learned that selling a bunch of excess tools and ski gear on the side can draw a different crowd. I’ve leaned certain things just aren’t worth selling such as my used tires and really cheap tools for instance. Those seem to just bring bottom feeders by and I would rather dump the stuff then deal with that crowd. Typically listing higher-end stuff I get the people that know what it is, know it’s a deal and most just pay the asking price.

With my photography business I used to end up with a lot of really high end ski jackets / pants ($5-700+) and I’d list these for sale for less than 50% as they would only get used for a 1 day shoot and I’d be done with them. I finally quit selling them in person as I got too many women showing up wanting to try on each one and complaining they don’t fit…. Look lady you weigh more than I do, no way your fat *** is ever fitting anything labeled as small 🤦‍♂️

What I now do with anything that I want to sell that might attract that crowd is list it on FB as shipping only. Might take longer to sell, but it’s way better than dealing with that crowd.
 
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zmotorsports

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Mike, are these appropriate to use on auto carbs as well? I have a carb from a '39 Buick that I have to rebuild as it was used with "rusty" gas for quite a bit!!
Thanks.

Gary, I don't know why they wouldn't work on an automotive carburetor as long as you can make the correct connection at the fuel inlet. All it is measuring is that the needle & seat hold a small amount of pressure verifying that they are in good condition and won't leak fuel past and therefore overfill the fuel bowl.


Years ago Mike we were trying to hire as everyone else in Manufacturing was. Job Fairs. Recruiters, Ads on various Help wanted sites.

The topic of "Self Deselection" came up. Basically the process is to have the person self deselect before you as the interviewer have to even talk to them.

I applied this process when I sell things on FBMP or Craigslist. Here is an ad I just took down.

$40 each

Curt PN C45341 (the one in the middle)

Curt Heavy Duty Forged Ball Mount for 2" Hitches

- 3" Rise - 4" Drop - 17,000 lbs 1 - 1/4 Shank Diameter. Fits 2 Inch Receiver.

Curt PN C45342: Sold, Sold, Sold

Curt PN C45458: Sold, Sold, Sold

These sell for $79-83 on etrailer plus shipping. Fleet Farm they are close to $100 each. At roughly 50 cents on the dollar I will not haggle on the price. It is what it is.


Rules of engagement:

I will not answer to: "Is this still available."

Lower Ballers: F-Off.

Trades: No!!!

If you are lonely and want to talk, please call your mother.


Been doing this for years. Works for me.

On occasion I do get the smart *** that replies with "Is this still available." or a Low Ball offer or an insult about my mother.

About a year ago I listed all the Sleds for sale. Had a person ping each ad systematically in opposition to the "Rules of engagement". Did my usual thing, a search and found they were a Professor at a WI University. I sent them a polite email to their professional email address asking they stop pinging my ads.

I got a formal apology asking me not to escalate the issue any further.

I enjoy selling things online. The buyer either plays by my rules or they can go F themselves.

Love that Pat. I may have to incorporate that. All I have put in the past is "serious buyers only, no tire kickers and no low-ball offers will be accepted". This is really the only time in the past several years I have had an issue. But then again, I don't sell a lot of things these days either.



Mike, like you I’ve been running a small business out of my home garage. 99% of those customers are great and I don’t mind them coming by. In fact I enjoy chatting a bit with the regulars, and they keep growing the business telling their friends. What I do is very specialized and not cheap and those customers know exactly what they are getting into before coming by and are great to deal with.

I’ve also learned that selling a bunch of excess tools and ski gear on the side can draw a different crowd. I’ve leaned certain things just aren’t worth selling such as my used tires and really cheap tools for instance. Those seem to just bring bottom feeders by and I would rather dump the stuff then deal with that crowd. Typically listing higher-end stuff I get the people that know what it is, know it’s a deal and most just pay the asking price.

With my photography business I used to end up with a lot of really high end ski jackets / pants ($5-700+) and I’d list these for sale for less than 50% as they would only get used for a 1 day shoot and I’d be done with them. I finally quit selling them in person as I got too many women showing up wanting to try on each one and complaining they don’t fit…. Look lady you weigh more than I do, no way your fat *** is ever fitting anything labeled as small 🤦‍♂️

What I now do with anything that I want to sell that might attract that crowd is list it on FB as shipping only. Might take longer to sell, but it’s way better than dealing with that crowd.


Grant, yes, one of the things that worried me when I had my business was the number of people coming by. However, I combatted that by insisting that I work by appointment only and clients can't just stop by and drop stuff off. Most of my clients honored that, but I did have a few that pushed the limits of my request.

When I closed my business down in late 2016 because we were moving and I'd be building a new shop, I hadn't planned on doing any more work for others once the new shop was completed. Then a few years ago after being contacted by a couple of past clients and being caught up on my owns stuff, I agreed to take on the occasional side job, but I have tried to keep the list of potential clients rather small. Either past clients OR a referral if they come from someone I know is really the only work I do these days and ONLY when I have time, so pretty much on my terms or they can take it elsewhere. I'm not a fan of just letting people I don't know onto my property and I think I learned my lesson on this last sale.

Also, I have been trying to separate my work from most of the local shops with the intention of only keeping the ones who are willing to pay for higher end work and maybe I can thin the **** work out a bit. At least that is the plan and hope.
 
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zmotorsports

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I mentioned that I would take a few pictures and post them up of a few of the carburetor tools that I use for small engines so here they are along with a brief explanation.


This is an actual Walbro small carb tool kit. This is probably pushing 40 years old as I purchased it after a small engine course or seminar after high school. It has served me well over the past 4 decades. Although it was marketed and sold to service Walbro brand of carburetors, I have found it works equally well on Zama, Tillotson, Husqvarna and many knock-offs of the above. Although the accessory tools are less useful on motorcycle carbs such as Mikuni and Keihin carbs, the pump and gauge have been used immensely for motorcycle and snowmobile work over the years.
carb1.jpg

It came well equipped and well packed with a wide range of carburetor tools.
carb2.jpg

The small box contains tools to install seats and orifices into the bodies of the carbs.
carb3.jpg

This small slide hammer is designed to hook under a seat and extract it from the body.
carb4.jpg

Other drifts or drivers are for installations. The gauge is used to set float heights and pop-off heights.
carb5.jpg

I have replaced the O-rings in this pump probably a dozen times over the years and it has continued to work flawlessly afterwards up until a few years ago when the O-ring replacement didn't stop the leaking and the pumps capacity to provide positive pressure dropped. Upon more in-depth measuring I determined that the ID of the bore seems to exhibit a bit of wear which could explain why it doesn't operate as efficiently as it used to.
carb6.jpg

Unfortunately, that led me to purchase a new pump/gauge assembly. And unfortunately, this is an import. Walbro still makes a pump/gauge assembly but it is over $300 now so this one will have to do as I can't justify that high of a cost for replacement.
carb7.jpg

So far it seems to work well, so I have no complaints, other than I just don't like aftermarket knock-off **** if I can at all avoid them.
carb8.jpg


I have a few more to share.
 

gorilla

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Joined
Dec 13, 2007
Messages
1,660
I have never sold anything on line or bought from an individual online seller so I don't understand why asking if something is still available is an issue?
 

SilverJimmy

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Joined
Apr 14, 2012
Messages
1,752
Location
Prescott/Flagstaff, AZ
I have never sold anything on line or bought from an individual online seller so I don't understand why asking if something is still available is an issue?
Online selling etiquette is that once you sell the item you post that it sold or delete the ad. If the ad is still up it’s still available.
 

ntsqd

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Joined
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Messages
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Location
Lower left coast
I have never sold anything on line or bought from an individual online seller so I don't understand why asking if something is still available is an issue?
On FBMP it is an automated reply. Meaning that FBMP puts that in the text box automatically and if you want to say something different you have to erase it or over-write it. Which wouldn't be so bad, except that a lot of people have short attention spans. They'll send that message because they don't have actually think or do more than click a button, and then never follow up or reply to your reply.
 
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zmotorsports

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Moving on to airflow measuring tools.

These are used to measure air flow into the carburetors to ensure the slides are set at the proper height as well as to balance idle contributions across multi-cylinder engines. As a base measurement I would use my index and pinkie finger stuffed into two adjacent carbs and bump the throttle lever to make sure they are moving relatively even and at the same time based on "feel". This will get a person close and then the actual airflow can be measure to really dial in the air flowing into each individual carburetor. I used these on sled and sandrails as well as the Yamaha Banshee twin cylinder ATV's that I was building.
carb9.jpg

I have two sizes that can match up to most inlet air horns.
carb10.jpg


carb11.jpg

Almost forgot, I have another inexpensive pressure pump/gauge assembly that I keep handy in a drawer under the workbench that seems to get used a lot as well. This one had the gauge's lense cover fall off rather soon after purchasing, but it still functions fine.
carb12.jpg

This is the monometer I used for setting up air flow and synchronizing multi-cylinder metric bikes that were more difficult to the bulky single airflow meters into position. Also because many of them had to be set up with the airbox in place to get an accurate reading and keep the engine running smoothly enough for an accurate reading. This one also got used a lot as I had a lot of clients that had 4-cylinder metric crotch rockets that we worked on.
carb13.jpg

These are the adapters that I would use for the metric bikes that thread into the sides of the carbs and allow the rubber hoses from the monometer to be connected.
carb14.jpg


Hope those pictures are helpful.
 
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zmotorsports

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Would it be a simple job to make a new part to replace the worn Walbro part?

Probably, I would just have to machine the whole pump body as the wear appears to be in the inside bore of the pump. I used an oversize O-ring and that seemed to work, but only short term, which is why I broke down and purchased a lesser expensive one several years ago.
 

pancholasvegas

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Joined
Nov 6, 2017
Messages
261
What an excellent set up, Mike - Super cool to see someone who's properly tooled up for whatever comes through the shop. Love seeing that people are still out here doing the right thing and diagnosing / working through it with the proper tools and methodology, instead of throwing their hands up and claiming that carbs are black magic.

I'm not the best at Carburetor tuning or diagnosing, but I keep getting better and would like to expand my tool arsenal to better serve the machines that I like to play with.
 

rd65

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Sep 29, 2017
Messages
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Location
Granite Falls, WA
I have a set of those Motion Pro sticks hanging on the wall. When I moved in 2012 someone layed them down and lost my mercury. Cant get that stuff anymore so I now have a set of Amazon gauges that seem to work ok. At the bike shop we had a set for twins that had green coolant in them, used them on 2 stroke engines, sleds mainly.
 
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zmotorsports

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I was cleaning up my mess from the snowmobile the night before and snapping the pictures of the tools while I was awaiting the next job to roll through the door.

I walked outside as the sky was getting dark and the clouds were really getting thick ahead of our next storm. So far along the Wasatch Front it has been reported that this is the wettest October on record since they have been tracking. Where was some of this moisture back in July and August when it was one of the driest summers on record? :oops:
storm.jpg

The 6.0 Powerstroke rolled into the shop and I immediately connected the scan tool while it was hot so I could observe a few PID's as his complaint was odd compared to the others I have run across when diagnosing one of these HEUI fuel injection systems.

The customer complaint just didn't sound like the norm, so after a lot of questions such as recent work and when the situation occurs as I was trying to drill down to the first "C" in my diagnosis process, the "condition".
ps1.jpg

After learning he had it to a reputable diesel repair shop several times over the past several months for this issue I looked over receipts and asked a lot of questions before going on a test drive with the owner. I let him drive so I could observe the several PID's I was concerned with and he could focus on the road.

My head was racing because he told me it needs a High Pressure Oil Pump (HPOP) as that is what the shop told him, but the data was suggesting otherwise. I didn't see that the pump was having a hard time building pressure, the code present and the data was suggesting a data corruption or reporting error. I explained to the owner that the pressure he is seeing at the ICP wasn't accurate and that it was what is called an "inferred" reading, meaning the ECM was seeing something odd and while already having a tack signal and oil pressure signal, the ECM plugged in a value that it "thought" it should see, therefore an inferred value, but it wasn't real.

He said they replaced the ICP after doing an injector about 3 or 4 months ago and it ran fine for about a month or so. Then a couple of months ago it started acting up and throwing a P2287 code, which I verified. It also had a P2285 code which I had to look up as that one didn't stick in my mind. Found out they both involved information from the ICP back to the ECM so my first thought was wiring or connection issue, NOT the first thought being an expensive HPOP as the owner was told.

I tried to force the IPR high and although it wouldn't max out, it was providing high pressure oil, so the HPOP appeared to be providing what was asked of it.

I was fully prepared to perform a leak test on the high pressure oil side to verify the standpipes, dummy plugs and injector cups were sealing as these are all potential leak points, but the data didn't support that direction. I left the scanner connected and asked the owner to watch the ICP pressure while I took a peek under the hood.

I immediately noticed a new pigtail installed at the ICP and inquired about that. He said the shop did that when they did the injector as it had oil in the connector. Okay, that is a common issue on these and oil in the connector can affect the reading so that made sense. I was a little disappointed in the pigtail just hanging there out in the open, after all I have heard so many good things about this particular diesel repair shop that is local to us. When I moved the wires about the engine stumbled and shook momentarily and he said the ICP pressure jumped up to around 875 psi which is what he said it would go to when he would get the engine code. That must be the inferred value that gets plugged in.

The ICP sensor has three wires going to it so I grabbed one wire at a time and messed with it. The wire pulled out of the heat shrink, the engine sputtered and shuttered and he said the value stuck at around 875 psi. The wire pulled right out of the heat shrink. :oops: It may be difficult to see here, but you can see the copper strands.
ps2.jpg

Here is the end of the wire. It may be hard to tell, but is that a twisted strand?????
ps3.jpg

Before condemning the new pigtail, I wanted to perform a drag test on the pins and ensure there was even and adequate tension. I selected the correct size test lead from my kit that matched the pins in the ICP sensor.
ps4.jpg

All three pins seemed to feel the same and had nice tension on them.
ps5.jpg

Now knowing the actual ICP connector is in good condition I moved forward to repair the connection to the harness. This is what I discovered. :wtf: WTF??? Yep, no solder and no **** connector, merely wires twisted together.
ps6.jpg

Wondering if it was a fluke, because I can't see this highly respected repair shop doing this kind of work, I thought I'd cut into the heat shrink in another one of the wires to see if there is solder or a **** connector.......
ps7.jpg

....and before I could cut into the heat shrink that wire pulled out.
ps8.jpg

Stay tuned for more....
 
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zmotorsports

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Messages
21,572
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Continuing on.

I cut the heat shrink off and went to the workbench to dissect it and you can see the twisted strands where they merely coiled the wires together for the new pigtail installation.
ps9.jpg

Let's see if the third wire is any different? NOPE! Third wire pulled right out as well.
ps10.jpg

I cut the three bad sections out evenly so all three wires were of similar length and the pigtail wouldn't have unequal length wires, which makes it difficult to look nice inside a poly loom.
ps11.jpg

Pigtail reconnected using uninsulated 18-gauge **** connectors and heat shrink, followed by some nylon spiral wrap loom for a little extra protection.
ps12.jpg

While I was finishing up the ICP wiring, I glanced up and saw the wiring for the VGT solenoid resting on the turbo housing, which I didn't think was a good idea. Yes, it was the compressor side and not the turbine side, but still, heat transfers and chaffing can happen so may as well tidy that up while I'm here.
ps13.jpg

That's better.
ps14.jpg

ps15.jpg


Buttoned everything up, cleared the codes and road tested the truck. Then contacted the owner to come and pick it up.

Thanks for looking.
 
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zmotorsports

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Joined
Oct 20, 2009
Messages
21,572
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Northern Utah
What an excellent set up, Mike - Super cool to see someone who's properly tooled up for whatever comes through the shop. Love seeing that people are still out here doing the right thing and diagnosing / working through it with the proper tools and methodology, instead of throwing their hands up and claiming that carbs are black magic.

I'm not the best at Carburetor tuning or diagnosing, but I keep getting better and would like to expand my tool arsenal to better serve the machines that I like to play with.

Thank you very much. Having the proper tools and equipment may not be the entire formula for a positive outcome, but it sure gives the mechanic the best chance for success and repeatability.

Fortunately, my wife has been instrumental in allowing me to equip myself with whatever tools and equipment needed to perform the work that comes through my shop door.


I have a set of those Motion Pro sticks hanging on the wall. When I moved in 2012 someone layed them down and lost my mercury. Cant get that stuff anymore so I now have a set of Amazon gauges that seem to work ok. At the bike shop we had a set for twins that had green coolant in them, used them on 2 stroke engines, sleds mainly.


I think Motion Pro still sells a version of these, but they distinctly state "no mercury used" on them. Not quite sure what media they use though.
 

Finallygotit

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Joined
Jul 6, 2013
Messages
4,113
Location
Tucson, AZ
I was cleaning up my mess from the snowmobile the night before and snapping the pictures of the tools while I was awaiting the next job to roll through the door.

I walked outside as the sky was getting dark and the clouds were really getting thick ahead of our next storm. So far along the Wasatch Front it has been reported that this is the wettest October on record since they have been tracking. Where was some of this moisture back in July and August when it was one of the driest summers on record? :oops:
storm.jpg

The 6.0 Powerstroke rolled into the shop and I immediately connected the scan tool while it was hot so I could observe a few PID's as his complaint was odd compared to the others I have run across when diagnosing one of these HEUI fuel injection systems.

The customer complaint just didn't sound like the norm, so after a lot of questions such as recent work and when the situation occurs as I was trying to drill down to the first "C" in my diagnosis process, the "condition".
ps1.jpg

After learning he had it to a reputable diesel repair shop several times over the past several months for this issue I looked over receipts and asked a lot of questions before going on a test drive with the owner. I let him drive so I could observe the several PID's I was concerned with and he could focus on the road.

My head was racing because he told me it needs a High Pressure Oil Pump (HPOP) as that is what the shop told him, but the data was suggesting otherwise. I didn't see that the pump was having a hard time building pressure, the code present and the data was suggesting a data corruption or reporting error. I explained to the owner that the pressure he is seeing at the ICP wasn't accurate and that it was what is called an "inferred" reading, meaning the ECM was seeing something odd and while already having a tack signal and oil pressure signal, the ECM plugged in a value that it "thought" it should see, therefore an inferred value, but it wasn't real.

He said they replaced the ICP after doing an injector about 3 or 4 months ago and it ran fine for about a month or so. Then a couple of months ago it started acting up and throwing a P2287 code, which I verified. It also had a P2285 code which I had to look up as that one didn't stick in my mind. Found out they both involved information from the ICP back to the ECM so my first thought was wiring or connection issue, NOT the first thought being an expensive HPOP as the owner was told.

I tried to force the IPR high and although it wouldn't max out, it was providing high pressure oil, so the HPOP appeared to be providing what was asked of it.

I was fully prepared to perform a leak test on the high pressure oil side to verify the standpipes, dummy plugs and injector cups were sealing as these are all potential leak points, but the data didn't support that direction. I left the scanner connected and asked the owner to watch the ICP pressure while I took a peek under the hood.

I immediately noticed a new pigtail installed at the ICP and inquired about that. He said the shop did that when they did the injector as it had oil in the connector. Okay, that is a common issue on these and oil in the connector can affect the reading so that made sense. I was a little disappointed in the pigtail just hanging there out in the open, after all I have heard so many good things about this particular diesel repair shop that is local to us. When I moved the wires about the engine stumbled and shook momentarily and he said the ICP pressure jumped up to around 875 psi which is what he said it would go to when he would get the engine code. That must be the inferred value that gets plugged in.

The ICP sensor has three wires going to it so I grabbed one wire at a time and messed with it. The wire pulled out of the heat shrink, the engine sputtered and shuttered and he said the value stuck at around 875 psi. The wire pulled right out of the heat shrink. :oops: It may be difficult to see here, but you can see the copper strands.
ps2.jpg

Here is the end of the wire. It may be hard to tell, but is that a twisted strand?????
ps3.jpg

Before condemning the new pigtail, I wanted to perform a drag test on the pins and ensure there was even and adequate tension. I selected the correct size test lead from my kit that matched the pins in the ICP sensor.
ps4.jpg

All three pins seemed to feel the same and had nice tension on them.
ps5.jpg

Now knowing the actual ICP connector is in good condition I moved forward to repair the connection to the harness. This is what I discovered. :wtf: WTF??? Yep, no solder and no **** connector, merely wires twisted together.
ps6.jpg

Wondering if it was a fluke, because I can't see this highly respected repair shop doing this kind of work, I thought I'd cut into the heat shrink in another one of the wires to see if there is solder or a **** connector.......
ps7.jpg

....and before I could cut into the heat shrink that wire pulled out.
ps8.jpg

Stay tuned for more....
Seriously!!!! WTF!!!???!!!??? Whomever/whoever ( :dunno: ) did that wiring job should have their ******* wired to 120 volts a couple of times.

:beer:
 
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zmotorsports

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Messages
21,572
Location
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Seriously!!!! WTF!!!???!!!??? Whomever/whoever ( :dunno: ) did that wiring job should have their ******* wired to 120 volts a couple of times.

:beer:

Exactly Dan. I was shocked when I heard the owner tell me the shop's name that had performed the work on this truck. This is the same Super Duty I had in last my shop year doing all of the work on and when he called me a few months ago I simply didn't have the time, and he couldn't wait.

When he called me a couple of weeks ago and explained what was going on and he told me he recently had the ICP replaced, I told him it would be a couple of weeks before I could get it back in, but suggested he take it back to the shop who replaced the ICP and see if it was something that maybe they missed such as in a loose connection or something. He called me again last week and said they "threw" another ICP in it thinking it was a bad one, but it was doing the same thing, and now they're telling him it needs a HPOP and he wants another opinion before having them replace the high pressure oil pump, so I agreed to try to get him in as soon as I could.

I am just completely dumbfounded that this particular shop performed this work and then they threw another sensor in it rather than check their previous work. :rolleyes:
 

ScepterToad

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 9, 2023
Messages
353
That's just insane. You'd think a shop that does this for a living would do a better job. I've said for a few years now that if a person did good work at a reasonable rate and actually showed up for the job would have so much work they wouldn't know what to do with themselves.

Mistakes happen, but that's just laziness.
 
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zmotorsports

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Joined
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Messages
21,572
Location
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I have to wonder if the shop's owner knows that kind of work is going out the door.

If I were to guess, I would say maybe no he doesn't. However, it doesn't help this situation any regardless of whether he knew or not. It's not my place to point it out to the shop owner, but I asked the owner of the truck if he wanted to take the wiring and pictures to the shop and he just said "nope, I'm done with them". So therefore, the person who did it received no repercussions for their actions and in his mind it is now a viable repair and one that he may even repeat.
 

ntsqd

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 22, 2005
Messages
1,029
Location
Lower left coast
I agree, it isn't and that's kind of a tough spot to be in. However, if there is a "back channel" to the owner I'd put a bug in their ear. They should want know about it as things like that kill a good rep faster than just about anything.

A couple of years ago I had a semi-famous engine machine shop in the San Fernando Valley build me a 408 Ford. When I saw the parts list it didn't match what I told the shop that I needed from the engine (starting with a very non EFI cam in an EFI application). I pulled it almost finished and took to another shop. I could see the new shop's owner starting to worry that he was going to end up in the middle of a mess as I explained the situation to him. I told him that I didn't care what the previous shop had done and didn't want to know, to tear it all the way apart and build it his way given what I told him I wanted it to do.
One good thing that came out of that debacle was learning about: https://stores.precisionoilpumps.com/ as the new shop insisted on using one of their pumps in the engine.
 

GRN96WS6

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Joined
Dec 23, 2012
Messages
2,298
Location
SOMD
Wow Mike, I have an 04 6L and my ICP pigtail was loose, it got replaced after many other places wanted to do other $$$$ "fixes" I finally found a local guy who does solid work and really does a thorough diagnosis and he discovered I needed a new one just like you did wiggling the wires. I can't believe they just twisted wires together....
 

joecon

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Joined
Oct 4, 2010
Messages
687
I had professional techs tell me that twisting wires together is good enough. One of the things lacking in many shops is quality control. The tech says its fixed and no one checks they just bill it out and are done. The owner is so busy they can't check or to laze to or don't care enough to check and the staff know it, so they don't check ether.
 
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zmotorsports

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Joined
Oct 20, 2009
Messages
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Location
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Wow Mike, I have an 04 6L and my ICP pigtail was loose, it got replaced after many other places wanted to do other $$$$ "fixes" I finally found a local guy who does solid work and really does a thorough diagnosis and he discovered I needed a new one just like you did wiggling the wires. I can't believe they just twisted wires together....

Is yours an early 04 or late? Reason I ask is because the 2003/early 2004 model 6.0's had the ICP located at the back near the turbo and IPR valve and were a different sensor altogether and access is less then ideal. Many times it's easier reaching up around the transmission bell housing and having to remove a heat shield, but still not fun to access.

In late 2004 models they moved the ICP to the right bank and easy to access in the valve cover. Much more pleasant to work on.
 

GRN96WS6

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Joined
Dec 23, 2012
Messages
2,298
Location
SOMD
Is yours an early 04 or late? Reason I ask is because the 2003/early 2004 model 6.0's had the ICP located at the back near the turbo and IPR valve and were a different sensor altogether and access is less then ideal. Many times it's easier reaching up around the transmission bell housing and having to remove a heat shield, but still not fun to access.

In late 2004 models they moved the ICP to the right bank and easy to access in the valve cover. Much more pleasant to work on.
Late, its on the valve cover. I replaced it myself once but I never thought to check the damn pigtail, lesson learned. Diesels are a lot diff than gas and esp the 6L and I don't yet own a scanner that has good live data feeds.
 
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zmotorsports

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Messages
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Late, its on the valve cover. I replaced it myself once but I never thought to check the damn pigtail, lesson learned. Diesels are a lot diff than gas and esp the 6L and I don't yet own a scanner that has good live data feeds.

Good to hear it's a later 6.0. The main problem I've seen with the ICP sensors is that when they begin to fail they leak at the connector and start wicking oil up into the connector which messes with the readings. This is why the are so many of these ICP pigtails installed/replaced.
 

ntsqd

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 22, 2005
Messages
1,029
Location
Lower left coast
I had professional techs tell me that twisting wires together is good enough. One of the things lacking in many shops is quality control. The tech says its fixed and no one checks they just bill it out and are done. The owner is so busy they can't check or to laze to or don't care enough to check and the staff know it, so they don't check ether.
I would argue that those saying that are not Professionals and are actually hacks in disguise.
 

Finallygotit

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Jul 6, 2013
Messages
4,113
Location
Tucson, AZ
If I were to guess, I would say maybe no he doesn't. However, it doesn't help this situation any regardless of whether he knew or not. It's not my place to point it out to the shop owner, but I asked the owner of the truck if he wanted to take the wiring and pictures to the shop and he just said "nope, I'm done with them". So therefore, the person who did it received no repercussions for their actions and in his mind it is now a viable repair and one that he may even repeat.
If it were me, I would let the owner/manager know. They can't fix what they don't know is broken. This is a great lesson on what NOT to do.

:beer:
 
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