ZMotorsports Shop Projects 2.0

[zmotorsports]

I used to give a handout to my IT team every year or so to remind them of why we need to do our jobs accurately and completely. There's probably a few variations on this theme out there. Yeah, it's probably dated, but gets the point across.

If 99.9% Were Good Enough​

Lately it seems I have been hearing so many people say something along the lines of “oh, it’s good enough”. While almost completing something or being unsure it is accurate may work in some cases, in most it will not. The list that follows has been around for a while. I think it is valuable to re-visit every year as some of the 1% that isn’t done, or done incorrectly, can have lifelong effects.

If 99.9% Were Good Enough, then…​

• Two million documents will be lost by the IRS this year.
• 22,000 checks will be deducted from the wrong bank accounts in the next 60 minutes.
• 1,314 phone calls will be misplaced by telecommunication services every minute.
• 12 babies will be given to the wrong parents each day.
• 103,260 income tax returns will be processed incorrectly this year.
• 2,488,200 books will be shipped in the next 12 months with the wrong cover.
• 5.5 million cases of soft drinks produced in the next 12 months will be flatter than a bad tire.
• Two plane landings daily at O’Hare International Airport in Chicago will be unsafe.
• 3,065 copies of tomorrow’s Wall Street Journal will be missing one of the three sections.
• 18,322 pieces of mail will be mishandled in the next hour.
• 291 pacemaker operations will be performed incorrectly this year.
• 880,000 credit cards in circulation will turn out to have incorrect card holder information on their magnetic strips.
• $9,690 will be spent today, tomorrow, next Thursday, and every day in the future on defective, often unsafe sporting equipment.
• 20,000 incorrect drug prescriptions will be written in the next 12 months.
• 114,500 mismatched pairs of shoes will be shipped this year.
• 107 incorrect medical procedures will be performed by the end of the day today.
• 315 entries in Webster’s Third New International Dictionary of the English Language will turn out to be misspelled.

That's a great list.

I used the example that what if I came in one Monday and just didn't feel like making sure everyone's times were correct and one of them were shorted hours on their paycheck? I could just say "oh well, good enough". I don't know what to do or say anymore to reach some of them. For the most part our team is great, but just trying to get those couple of young minds to think beyond themselves and think big picture and to take pride in what they do is taking a lot of time and effort.

 

[aka Larry]

I told my boss recently that people either have drive and ambition or they don't, that's not something you can teach, and he very much disagreed.

How do you even talk to someone who believes stuff like this? How the hell can ambition/drive be taught?

Kind of reminds of my wife when she was in nursing school. There were several of her classmates who were A students on their written exams but were F students when caring for the actual patients. Compassion is something my wife has a TON of, and that is another trait that simply cannot be taught. You either have it, or you don't.

 

[rharman]

A former employer thought IT was just a money pit and not a "contributor", they paid our techs almost nothing. We absolutely could not recruit anyone with experience. So, we relied on fresh graduates from ITT Tech (now defunct) or similar programs - preferably, they'd be CompTIA certified which would show some self-motivation.

We told them, coming in, that they'd probably only stay a couple of years but they'd learn a ton and leave with great experience for their next job. Besides the tech stuff, they'd learn responsibility, time management, customer service/relations, etc.

These kids would work nights, weekends, holidays - a lot of time being the only one on duty and responsible for a large campus covering 3 facilities supporting several hundred users - plus 2 remote locations. Phones, computers, printers, cash registers, etc. We did all in-house repairs on pretty much everything. Still, their pay was crapola despite all my efforts with HR to boost them.

One, who left, later told me a story of his new job. They had an HP LaserJet that was having some mechanical issues. They were ready to toss it and buy a new one. He said "I can fix it." Opened it up, took care of the problem, and they were back up and running in an hour or so. They thought he walked on water.

I remember being so grateful to the community college instructor who gave me and several others from one of his classes our first jobs as programmers. I always strived to give these young guys their break and took great pride in seeing them leave the nest. 95% ended up doing well. I feel good about that but I guess I missed that 100% target. Like you said "...people either have drive and ambition or they don't..."

 

[zmotorsports]

How do you even talk to someone who believes stuff like this? How the hell can ambition/drive be taught?

Kind of reminds of my wife when she was in nursing school. There were several of her classmates who were A students on their written exams but were F students when caring for the actual patients. Compassion is something my wife has a TON of, and that is another trait that simply cannot be taught. You either have it, or you don't.

He's a handful to deal with Vincent. He is so ALL-IN on whatever corporate says. It is hard to reason with him or even effectively communicate with him at times. On one hand he tells us we should "question everything". Which in a lot of ways I agree with. Don't take things at face value and don't just do things a certain way for no other reason that we've been doing them that way forever. Question the process and question the results. Are these results what we are after? If not, question the process to get the results we want. Much of this is common sense. If we want different results, question the process and see what is missing to deliver the wanted results. I think many of us already do this daily without even thinking about it.

However, when we question something coming down from corporate or question a decision made at our local level coming from him, it is not to be questioned. This I do have a problem with. We are to question everything, unless it is something we aren't supposed to question. I am also not naive enough to believe that at my level I am given all of the details. I get that I may not know all of the "why's" behind a decision and to some degree I am willing to accept that. However, when something simply doesn't make sense and he can't explain it to me in a manner that makes sense and just tells me to sell it, I don't respond too well.

For the most part, I have no problem per se with someone who tries to actively communicate a corporate message. However, when they fail to use common sense in doing so or just so eagerly accept the message without giving it any mindful thought, that is something different. Then it purely becomes foolishness. For the most part I can easily sell a message I believe in and can see the results or walk someone through the process, however on something that makes absolutely no sense, I find myself less effective in delivering the message.

 

[Xti04]

He's a handful to deal with Vincent. He is so ALL-IN on whatever corporate says. It is hard to reason with him or even effectively communicate with him at times. On one hand he tells us we should "question everything". Which in a lot of ways I agree with. Don't take things at face value and don't just do things a certain way for no other reason that we've been doing them that way forever. Question the process and question the results. Are these results what we are after? If not, question the process to get the results we want. Much of this is common sense. If we want different results, question the process and see what is missing to deliver the wanted results. I think many of us already do this daily without even thinking about it.

However, when we question something coming down from corporate or question a decision made at our local level coming from him, it is not to be questioned. This I do have a problem with. We are to question everything, unless it is something we aren't supposed to question. I am also not naive enough to believe that at my level I am given all of the details. I get that I may not know all of the "why's" behind a decision and to some degree I am willing to accept that. However, when something simply doesn't make sense and he can't explain it to me in a manner that makes sense and just tells me to sell it, I don't respond too well.

For the most part, I have no problem per se with someone who tries to actively communicate a corporate message. However, when they fail to use common sense in doing so or just so eagerly accept the message without giving it any mindful thought, that is something different. Then it purely becomes foolishness. For the most part I can easily sell a message I believe in and can see the results or walk someone through the process, however on something that makes absolutely no sense, I find myself less effective in delivering the message.

Mike, this is a big part of my new job. I have access to data I didnt even know existed when I was just doing nursing in the emergency department. I have insight into the " whys" of the corporate decision making processes now and get to play a small role in answering quedtions up the chain as to where growth can actually come from, instead of someone just guessing. I question a lot of processes now just because its something I havent been exposed to and as a mechanic I want to understand the how and why of the process so I can troubleshoot the system when it doesnt give me the result I want. Most just accept whatever result comes down the line and let it be.

 

[zmotorsports]

Went through the shop last night and did some deep cleaning, like pulling the welders out and sweeping behind them, then grabbed the leaf blower and blew the shop out as the wind picked up a slightly on Sunday when I was doing the lawns and some blades of grass found their way into the shop.

Just as I was about to close up the next job rolled into the shop. This guy contacted me through my Shelby GT500 rear end video on YouTube and is local, only about 20-miles south of me. Interesting story on the car and it is in excellent condition. After a road test with the owner, I agreed to take it on.






Now the work begins.

 

[PugetDude]

A former employer thought IT was just a money pit and not a "contributor", they paid our techs almost nothing. We absolutely could not recruit anyone with experience. So, we relied on fresh graduates from ITT Tech (now defunct) or similar programs - preferably, they'd be CompTIA certified which would show some self-motivation.

We told them, coming in, that they'd probably only stay a couple of years but they'd learn a ton and leave with great experience for their next job. Besides the tech stuff, they'd learn responsibility, time management, customer service/relations, etc.

These kids would work nights, weekends, holidays - a lot of time being the only one on duty and responsible for a large campus covering 3 facilities supporting several hundred users - plus 2 remote locations. Phones, computers, printers, cash registers, etc. We did all in-house repairs on pretty much everything. Still, their pay was crapola despite all my efforts with HR to boost them.

One, who left, later told me a story of his new job. They had an HP LaserJet that was having some mechanical issues. They were ready to toss it and buy a new one. He said "I can fix it." Opened it up, took care of the problem, and they were back up and running in an hour or so. They thought he walked on water.

I remember being so grateful to the community college instructor who gave me and several others from one of his classes our first jobs as programmers. I always strived to give these young guys their break and took great pride in seeing them leave the nest. 95% ended up doing well. I feel good about that but I guess I missed that 100% target. Like you said "...people either have drive and ambition or they don't..."

Some of my best Engineering hires were graduates of the ITT Tech drafting and design Associates degree program. Mostly farm kids from Idaho and Montana with a strong work ethic, common sense, and a demonstrated desire to learn and grow.
We were able to teach and develop them into great machinery designers and team leaders. They consistently outperformed their peers with four year degrees from more prestigious bastions of higher education/indoctrination.

One of the worst hires was an egghead with a degree from MIT. ( Not my hire...shirt-tail relative of one of the other VP's) His first design release failed catastrophically, his response was to run around defending his calculations.
Had a farm kid with an ITT tech degree take over. MIT egghead self-selected his exit.

 

[ntsqd]

Had a similar thing happen in College. 4.2 GPA (!) Mechanical took on designing the adjustable seat for the Human Powered Vehicle recumbent Student Competition project as his Senior Project. He took the designs to the Manufacturing Engineering grad student who was going to program and run the CNC to make main structure parts. Grad student pointed to a thin section in the 6061 T6 plate and said "It's going to break here." Mr. 4.2 was but foaming at the mouth saying he'd done the FEA and a bunch of other analysis and it would be fine.
I welded it all together. The team put their biggest rider on the bike, who promptly broke it right where the Grad student had predicted. It was an easy call, all of us with any real world experience were sure it would break there.
Grad student asked if we had enough of the rest of the aluminum to make another seat and then added a 1/4" to the thin section profile. Then I welded a second one together. They put it on the bike and told the big rider to stress-test it. It didn't break. Asked if he could tell the difference from the 1/4" less adjustment range and the burly rider said "Not really."
Mr. 4.2 was more upset that his GPA took a hit from the grade that he got for the Senior Project class than he was about the breakage. From time to time I wonder what became of Mr 4.2, I really hope he isn't doing life safety related work.

 

[rharman]

Some of my best Engineering hires were graduates of the ITT Tech drafting and design Associates degree program. Mostly farm kids from Idaho and Montana with a strong work ethic, common sense, and a demonstrated desire to learn and grow.
We were able to teach and develop them into great machinery designers and team leaders. They consistently outperformed their peers with four year degrees from more prestigious bastions of higher education/indoctrination.

One of the worst hires was an egghead with a degree from MIT. ( Not my hire...shirt-tail relative of one of the other VP's) His first design release failed catastrophically, his response was to run around defending his calculations.
Had a farm kid with an ITT tech degree take over. MIT egghead self-selected his exit.

One of my best guys was working as a sweeper at the time and going to ITT. We transferred him in. Man, that kid was motivated and a fabulous worker. He later went on to a great career in IT with a major airline. Moved right up the ranks.

Another was working at the WalMart tire center and going to ITT. Former Marine. Another great one.

Makes you feel good to see there is still some wonderful work ethic out there.

Sorry @zmotorsports - We've kind of taken your thread on a slight tangent. But, still related to your posts.

 

[bugnut]

some blades of grass found their way into the shop.

Shelby GT500

OH the horrors, both in the same day!!

 

[zmotorsports]

One of my best guys was working as a sweeper at the time and going to ITT. We transferred him in. Man, that kid was motivated and a fabulous worker. He later went on to a great career in IT with a major airline. Moved right up the ranks.

Another was working at the WalMart tire center and going to ITT. Former Marine. Another great one.

Makes you feel good to see there is still some wonderful work ethic out there.

Sorry @zmotorsports - We've kind of taken your thread on a slight tangent. But, still related to your posts.

No worries, we discuss all matters here and all discussions are welcome.

OH the horrors, both in the same day!!

Yep Joel, it was one of those days. Both grass and a Ford found their way into my shop.

 

[zmotorsports]

Some more pictures of this Shelby GT500KR. It's quite a nice car. The owner is very proud of it and although he's relatively new to being the caretaker of this ride, I am honored he chose me to partner with him in its care.



With the power on tap, I think it would be hard to keep tires under this thing.


He's about ready for new rears.


This thing is extremely clean, underneath as well.



After the test drive with the owner, it is now on to the teardown.

 

[ntsqd]

@rattle_snake, are those the drag radials like you use?

 

[zmotorsports]

Driveshaft removed at the pinion to ensure the noise isn't coming from either the transmission output or the carrier bearing.

With the driveshaft removed, I grabbed the pinion yoke and holy ****, trying to spin it the growl is evident. Then when I turn it slowly I can feel and count each roller in the bearings as the pinion is rotated. It didn't feel like much in terms of preload so I threw the dial torque wrench on it and sure enough, only about 3 in/lbs. of rotating torque, nowhere near what I like to see. It doesn't show up in the picture, but I took a short video and sent it to the owner showing the needle bouncing as I rotated the pinion depicting the bad bearing. I'm assuming either a roller in a bearing or a bad spot in a race that the roller(s) are falling into causing the rough feel and needle bounce on the torque wrench. But silly me, that's just using some critical thinking, maybe I should consult Google before I do anything to see what's wrong with this thing.


Fill plug removed and nothing comes out. Not necessarily a bad thing, but I do prefer to see a slight trickle of fluid.


There's not as much buildup on the fill plug magnet than I expected to see, however, there's more than there should be with as low of miles on the car.


It's pretty thick sludge/paste on the magnet.


Fluid level is down a bit further than I like to see. If it doesn't trickle out when the fill plug is removed then I at least like to see it right at or near the threads. However, I couldn't get any on my pinkie when I stuck it in, so I used the zip tie dipstick test and it's below the threaded opening nearly a half inch, which is not ideal.


Drain plug pulled and found similar on the drain plug magnet.


Lots of glitter in that oil.


Dial indicator setup and zero'd out.


WOW! That's a lot of backlash at .018".


I didn't have time to wipe the ring gear down and paint a few teeth to run a pattern as the kids stopped by and I wanted to play with my grandson, so this is where I left off for the evening.



Thanks for looking.

 

[Swanny1953]

Those look like R888's on the rear. About as sticky as you can get for street use. Still, I'd imagine traction is a problem with that much horsepower and a "relatively" narrow rear tire.

 

[zmotorsports]

Those look like R888's on the rear. About as sticky as you can get for street use. Still, I'd imagine traction is a problem with that much horsepower and a "relatively" narrow rear tire.

I can attest that the current owner likes the skinny pedal, at least from my experience with him on a 15 or so minute test drive. The car is impressive, I'll admit. The rear end can get loose in several of the lower gears with ease.

He mentioned that he's the third owner, all from the same neighborhood, and although he's owned it 3 years now, he's only put about 2500 miles on it. I said that's a shame as a car like this needs to be driven, not sitting in a garage. He agreed, but he said his wife won't ride in it because she doesn't like the noise from the rear end and he doesn't trust it. He said he'd love to take off with his wife for a long weekend drive up to Yellowstone NP or something but just doesn't trust it to not leave him stranded. I told him that we'll need to change that so he can get it out on the open road and enjoy it.

 

[jbmatth]

Those look like R888's on the rear. About as sticky as you can get for street use. Still, I'd imagine traction is a problem with that much horsepower and a "relatively" narrow rear tire.

I think they are Nitto NT555RII, still pretty good drag radials, but they don't stand a chance. Ford really missed an opportunity to put way more tire under the GT500's, they are just burnout machines.

JB

 

[WoodsTruck]

Curious what year the Shelby is.
On my '12 F150, I've had to change out all the drivetrain bearings as they all growled from an early age despite regular maintenance. So I'm curious if Ford had a bad run of bearings or if the Shelby issue is from something else.

 

[zmotorsports]

Curious what year the Shelby is.
On my '12 F150, I've had to change out all the drivetrain bearings as they all growled from an early age despite regular maintenance. So I'm curious if Ford had a bad run of bearings or if the Shelby issue is from something else.

This particular one is a 2008.

This is only the second ShelbyGT500 that I've had in my shop now and both had rear end issues with relatively low miles. I'm not as versed on the Mustangs so I did a bit of research after the last one and discovered that on the Shelby and Mustang forums, they are plagued with rear end issues which seem to mainly be in the 2007-2010 model years. Several threads I read the owners were original and they had the cars back to the dealerships multiple times trying to get the noises resolved. Some were even told by the dealerships that they're a race car and they won't be as quiet as a normal street car/sedan. Not sure I buy that.

Two separate gentlemen posted that their rear ends had been apart and back together multiple times by the dealership mechanics who specialize in rear ends and they couldn't cure the noises and both of them insisted they replace the entire rear ends as assemblies and when they did the noises were gone.

I may be going out on a limb here, but based on what I found on the first one earlier in this thread, I think they were set up incorrectly at the factory, leading to the noises and early demise. I do not think it is bearing failure. Again, this is just my feeble mind thinking through my findings, but I think they were not setup correctly from the beginning and this led to eventual bearing failure, as in too much preload. The 2007 Shelby GT500 that I did earlier this year had the carrier bearings as well as the pinion bearings that had a LOT of wear and upon disassembly I was shocked at how little pinion preload it had and how much carrier preload it had.

This 2008 seems to be similar, but with little to no preload and way too much play. I don't want to speak out too much just yet because I am not all the way into this one, but seeing the play and lack of preload, I am "suspecting" to find that the preload was set too tight and then the bearing(s) failed resulting in the excessive play. I'll have to report back on that once I get it fully disassembled.

I did a 2019 F-150 with the 8.8 about 4 years ago and I found none of these issues, the reason for that rebuilt was a regear, but the bearings and internals looked great so it seems to be the earlier model years.

 

[ScepterToad]

Another interesting (to me) project in the shop Mike!

I saw a video yesterday (I get random stuff on the internet and try on purpose to confuse the **** out of the algorithm). They guy was saying that pinion depth is the measurement from the flat part (front) of the pinion gear to the flat where the bearing caps bolt on. He even had a home made tool that measured it. Any thoughts on that? Internet ****?

If it's not ****, could a person use that as a first check when doing a regear to get a ballpark of where they should be?

 

[ntsqd]

>> I told him that we'll need to change that so he can get it out on the open road and enjoy it. <<
THAT! No point otherwise.

Scepter, he's making the assumption that the flats are at the actual center-line that the differential carrier spins around. Which is not always correct, and the measurement is small enough that it could make his depth setting wrong. Perfect world, he's correct. Real world, not so much. It might get him well within the ball-park, but it won't be exact. The correct tool isn't that expensive, why not use it to make that same measurement?

 

[ScepterToad]

>> I told him that we'll need to change that so he can get it out on the open road and enjoy it. <<
THAT! No point otherwise.

Scepter, he's making the assumption that the flats are at the actual center-line that the differential carrier spins around. Which is not always correct, and the measurement is small enough that it could make his depth setting wrong. Perfect world, he's correct. Real world, not so much. It might get him well within the ball-park, but it won't be exact. The correct tool isn't that expensive, why not use it to make that same measurement?

Thanks Thom!

And heck if I know, that's why I asked. It's the first I've ever seen of it and I've watched several diff videos recently trying to learn how to do it as my Jeep is in need of a regear.

 

[zmotorsports]

Another interesting (to me) project in the shop Mike!

I saw a video yesterday (I get random stuff on the internet and try on purpose to confuse the **** out of the algorithm). They guy was saying that pinion depth is the measurement from the flat part (front) of the pinion gear to the flat where the bearing caps bolt on. He even had a home made tool that measured it. Any thoughts on that? Internet ****?

If it's not ****, could a person use that as a first check when doing a regear to get a ballpark of where they should be?

Thanks Keith.

Yes, he is partially correct. Correct "IF" the flat where the carrier bearing caps mate IS the centerline of the axle. Many times, most times, this is the case. However, to make a blanket statement like that he's really setting someone up for failure because they are not always the centerline.

I have a few tools that clamp into the bearing caps that actually do center up on that centerline and therefore I am confident my measurement would be accurate. As I've mentioned in past posts and demonstrations, the pinion depth IS the first (and some would argue the most) critical setting to get correct. Today not all manufucturers mark the ideal pinion depth to centerline dimension on the gearset. If the measurement is indicated, then this will get a person spot on if they know how to measure it and adjust accordingly.

That being said, many years ago when I began noticing the dimensions not always being provided on new gearsets, I chose to take a little extra time on those that were provided by setting them up by sight using gear marking compound and patterns, then removing, measuring and setting up using the dimensions and verifying my process and seeing how close I was getting. I feel this was a HUGE benefit in my learning process and so glad I took the time all those years ago to go through that process to train myself on what a correct vs. an incorrect pinion depth looked like on an overall gear pattern.

Hope that all makes sense as I may have been rambling a bit.

 

[zmotorsports]

>> I told him that we'll need to change that so he can get it out on the open road and enjoy it. <<
THAT! No point otherwise.

Scepter, he's making the assumption that the flats are at the actual center-line that the differential carrier spins around. Which is not always correct, and the measurement is small enough that it could make his depth setting wrong. Perfect world, he's correct. Real world, not so much. It might get him well within the ball-park, but it won't be exact. The correct tool isn't that expensive, why not use it to make that same measurement?

Thanks Thom. I started answering Keith then stepped away and came back to finish and didn't see you basically said the same thing I just did.

 

[ntsqd]

I hesitated a bit a bit before posting worried that it is your thread.

I only know that the flats are close but maybe not exactly on center from dealing with needing to fit two sets of Mark Williams steel bearing caps. One set to an 8.8 (OEM stretched) and another set to a Dana 60 (OEM were misplaced years prior).

 

[PugetDude]

Yep Joel, it was one of those days. Both grass and a Ford found their way into my shop.

 

[bugnut]

>> I told him that we'll need to change that so he can get it out on the open road and enjoy it. <<
THAT! No point otherwise.

 

[zmotorsports]

Joel, it recently hit me that I need to take my own advice as I look at my Camaro hiding under the cover. . The wife and I sold our Harley because we weren't riding it much and bought the Camaro instead. I love the car and if truth be told I think we are actually enjoying it a bit more than the bikes, but I don't get it out and drive it as much as I would like.

For me I think it comes down to weighing the time to clean it afterwards vs. putting miles on it and it's hard to find the time to clean it to the degree I want to keep it. I just need to drive it and plan on time to wash it AND accept the fact that it isn't perfect and it WILL get chips in the paint.

I talked to a guy (past client) the other night who is contemplating a C5 or C6 Corvette and he asked me I'd I would do the work on it if he bought it because he doesn't know it trust anyone else. I was very flattered but during the conversation he was alluding to the fact that is he keeps the miles down it will be with more.

I hated to burst his bubble but I informed him that I didn't feel the late model Corvettes hold their value as some owners think they do or thought they would. Unless it is a really rare one I would drive it and enjoy it as it's isn't going to have much effect on resale and then asked him why he's buying one. Is he buying it as an investment? If so, bad idea. Is he buying it for status or an image? Also a bad idea. Or is he buying it to enjoy? Then drive it and enjoy it as they need (and want) to be driven.

Again, after he left I sat there and stared at my covered Camaro thinking I really need to drive ours more.

 

[Xti04]

Mike I recently bought my corolla for work and as I detailed in my thread as soon as I got it home I dove into cleaning and buffing the whole car. Even with a multistep process and clay bar buff and wax etc I was really bummed when I backed it out and could still see some stuff I was unable to get out of the paint. I took it by a detailer buddy who reminded me that this is a daily driven car getting 2-3 k miles a month put on it. He told me that the amount of time cleaning to keep it pristine was not going to be feasible with how its being used. Thats what it too kto hit home for me. He made a good point and I can keep to cleaning it once a week to take care of it, but not stress over every swirl or water spot. Im more of a use it and enjoy kind of guy, but when I shell out hard earned cash I want to protect my investment as much as possible.
Solid advice to those guys to use those vehicles more, buying a c5 for an investment is a terrible idea to me. I would buy one for Dragon runs but other than that it would just be in the way over here.

 

[Swanny1953]

Joel, it recently hit me that I need to take my own advice as I look at my Camaro hiding under the cover. . The wife and I sold our Harley because we weren't riding it much and bought the Camaro instead. I love the car and if truth be told I think we are actually enjoying it a bit more than the bikes, but I don't get it out and drive it as much as I would like.

For me I think it comes down to weighing the time to clean it afterwards vs. putting miles on it and it's hard to find the time to clean it to the degree I want to keep it. I just need to drive it and plan on time to wash it AND accept the fact that it isn't perfect and it WILL get chips in the paint.

I talked to a guy (past client) the other night who is contemplating a C5 or C6 Corvette and he asked me I'd I would do the work on it if he bought it because he doesn't know it trust anyone else. I was very flattered but during the conversation he was alluding to the fact that is he keeps the miles down it will be with more.

I hated to burst his bubble but I informed him that I didn't feel the late model Corvettes hold their value as some owners think they do or thought they would. Unless it is a really rare one I would drive it and enjoy it as it's isn't going to have much effect on resale and then asked him why he's buying one. Is he buying it as an investment? If so, bad idea. Is he buying it for status or an image? Also a bad idea. Or is he buying it to enjoy? Then drive it and enjoy it as they need (and want) to be driven.

Again, after he left I sat there and stared at my covered Camaro thinking I really need to drive ours more.

Mike, I get the conundrum of driving our cars for enjoyment, offset by the effort to keep them “pristine”. I opt for the driving enjoyment and am OK with the trade offs. I bought our ‘19 ZR1 Corvette off a lot in Houston at sticker less my owner loyalty discount. I didn’t know until later that it was the only one of the 2,879 run configured as it is - yes, a true unicorn. Based on auction results, it’s probably a $300k plus car now. Notwithstanding that, it has been on 2 Museum in Motion tours and will likely be taken on more having racked up 13,000+ miles in the process. Does it have a couple of blemishes - YES! But, I bought it to enjoy driving it and it gets out regularly regardless of its elevated value.
I don’t buy my cars as investments - if they go up in value, that’s fine - I get them to drive them regularly and let others enjoy them if so inclined. While I have a car hauler, it’s only been used to bring my finds home - no trailer queens in my garage!!
Ramble over, but as Gary Meadors said “You gotta drive ‘em!!”

 

[aka Larry]

Mike, I get the conundrum of driving our cars for enjoyment, offset by the effort to keep them “pristine”. I opt for the driving enjoyment and am OK with the trade offs. I bought our ‘19 ZR1 Corvette off a lot in Houston at sticker less my owner loyalty discount. I didn’t know until later that it was the only one of the 2,879 run configured as it is - yes, a true unicorn. Based on auction results, it’s probably a $300k plus car now. Notwithstanding that, it has been on 2 Museum in Motion tours and will likely be taken on more having racked up 13,000+ miles in the process. Does it have a couple of blemishes - YES! But, I bought it to enjoy driving it and it gets out regularly regardless of its elevated value.
I don’t buy my cars as investments - if they go up in value, that’s fine - I get them to drive them regularly and let others enjoy them if so inclined. While I have a car hauler, it’s only been used to bring my finds home - no trailer queens in my garage!!
Ramble over, but as Gary Meadors said “You gotta drive ‘em!!”

Agreed 100%. Any car you can't drive might as well be a photograph.

 

[ntsqd]

Guy I used know has one of the quad-cam Corvettes. It sits there gathering dust and rarely gets driven. Sad.

OTOH I know that it cost almost $300k in late 90's dollars to rebuild this car from bare frame rails & NO body because i was one of people who worked n it, and I got to ride in it around Marina del Rey. It is regularly driven and has been to several local Cars & Coffee events. This pic is from the Monterey Concours:

 

[bugnut]

Mike, Gary, et al just a bit of a followup. My dad was a car fanatic-no eating, drinking or such in his vehicles, pristine and perfect as he could.

Our cars/toys, etc need to be exercised. I am a believer of drive them. Many of the cars/trucks I enjoy, my kids won't keep or enjoy. I'm fine with that, so the idea of preserving the paint so it's perfect, fixing the slightest of flaws not my cup of tea. At car shows I let folks sit in my car and especially youngsters. I want the next generation to enjoy them like I have. Recently discussed this with cronies, and told them my instructions for the cars is they go to auction when I pass. Enjoy the checks kids!

Lastly I'll add do it now while you can, no one knows what tomorrow holds.

 

[moab11]

Honestly other than driving it, the best part of owning a nice/fun car is letting kids that are excited sit in it for a few min and get their pictures taken. The joy it brings them is infectious and I look at it as fueling the next generation of car lovers.

 

[Swanny1953]

Mike, Gary, et al just a bit of a followup. My dad was a car fanatic-no eating, drinking or such in his vehicles, pristine and perfect as he could.

Our cars/toys, etc need to be exercised. I am a believer of drive them. Many of the cars/trucks I enjoy, my kids won't keep or enjoy. I'm fine with that, so the idea of preserving the paint so it's perfect, fixing the slightest of flaws not my cup of tea. At car shows I let folks sit in my car and especially youngsters. I want the next generation to enjoy them like I have. Recently discussed this with cronies, and told them my instructions for the cars is they go to auction when I pass. Enjoy the checks kids!

Lastly I'll add do it now while you can, no one knows what tomorrow holds.

Don’t get me wrong, I like “pristine” and try to maintain them to this standard. I’m just not willing to give up driving them to attain that standard.
As to when I’m gone, my daughters and their spouses (especially their spouses) love cars and want what I have. We have already had one “draft” for the cars, with the oldest picking first, youngest getting # 2&3 picks, oldest 4&5, and so on. We need to redo this as I’ve added a few treasures in the interim

Honestly other than driving it, the best part of owning a nice/fun car is letting kids that are excited sit in it for a few min and get their pictures taken. The joy it brings them is infectious and I look at it as fueling the next generation of car lovers.

Couldn’t agree with you more. Maybe being the guy that lights that “car nut” fire in a young’n is a great feeling.

 

[bugnut]

Gary really like the draft for choosing, should the kids draw interest in anything I have I'll remember that. Thanks

 

[jbmatth]

Whenever I take one of my nice cars out I'm happy to let people sit in them and get photos and if they are younger kids I keep a stock of hotwheels cars in the trunk and let them pick one out. I do this for a few reasons but keeping the hobby alive so there is someone to buy them from my estate is part of it too.

JB

 

[moab11]

I like the hotwheels idea! May need to see if I can find a bunch cheap to leave in my vette.

I look at it as I still want to be able to buy sports cars for years to come, so need younger people to keep the demand alive.

 

[zmotorsports]

Mike, I get the conundrum of driving our cars for enjoyment, offset by the effort to keep them “pristine”. I opt for the driving enjoyment and am OK with the trade offs. I bought our ‘19 ZR1 Corvette off a lot in Houston at sticker less my owner loyalty discount. I didn’t know until later that it was the only one of the 2,879 run configured as it is - yes, a true unicorn. Based on auction results, it’s probably a $300k plus car now. Notwithstanding that, it has been on 2 Museum in Motion tours and will likely be taken on more having racked up 13,000+ miles in the process. Does it have a couple of blemishes - YES! But, I bought it to enjoy driving it and it gets out regularly regardless of its elevated value.
I don’t buy my cars as investments - if they go up in value, that’s fine - I get them to drive them regularly and let others enjoy them if so inclined. While I have a car hauler, it’s only been used to bring my finds home - no trailer queens in my garage!!
Ramble over, but as Gary Meadors said “You gotta drive ‘em!!”

Gary, I have actually had a bit of change of heart (or mind) over the years. When I first started building street rods/race cars in the late 80's and well into the late 90's, my goal was to build showstoppers. I was fortunate that I was able to build not only my 1940 Chev Coupe, but also a 1936/37 Ford Coupe for a client and was blessed to have them in magazines and won many car shows. At the time I was so **** about the paint and undercarriage that these cars were detailed to the max, then tires diapered and loaded into the trailer before heading to the show(s). It wasn't until after showing mine for several years that I got the bug to put it on the strip and drag race it. The first chip was the hardest. However, I really developed a love for racing and craved it after that.

Unfortunately, my wallet wasn't happy with the racing so I was only able to do that for about 8 years before I took a break. I put the car away when my dad dies in 2002 and it never saw the light of day until 2006 when I drug it back out and wanting to get it on the track again. Shows were less appealing at that time, but the strip was calling my name. Racing these cars will definitely be a test of one's mental awareness when it comes to stressing things like the chassis and getting a few chips and scratches. It was difficult on my mentally, but I enjoyed racing so much I came to the conclusion it was the nature of the beast.

When I finally realized I didn't have the funds to make it racing, I sold the street rod in 2006. I worked on a few for clients which filled that void, but it wasn't the same. I stepped away from drag racing in the late 90's when we built my son a couple of sand drag quads and that replaced the asphalt drag racing for a bit, plus it gave him some exposure and experience. Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on how I choose to look at it, he lost interest around 2010 and by 2012 he was completely done with it, so we sold all our sand drag toys in 2012. I'm not going to lie though, I was pretty much done with the powersports crowd by then anyways, so I completely got out of all powersports and quit working on them altogether.

I focused on daily drivers and some performance work for a while which is when my mindset really began to change. I began to realize that I wanted to actually drive the cars and vehicles that I was building rather than having them become trailer queens and just go from show to show. In 2010 when my son started showing more interest in bikes, we went down the same road with those. Building them so nice that we didn't enjoy riding them as much as building them. When he bought his Street Glide, we had this whole build planned out but before we really commenced the project, we had a mental shift to build it more suitable to ride, which also triggered my next bike, a 2010 Ultra CVO which I also focused more on keeping it a nice cruiser vs. building it up to show.

When we sold it and the wife wanted to replace it with another toy, my first instinct was to build a first gen Camaro but I know how that would have gone and it would be a long drawn out build and not really driven. When we had discussions about a later model and I told her my thinking and we began our search for our Fifth Gen Camaro, it was going to be a driver. When we found it, the car although virgin, did already have a few rock chips and scratches, but otherwise 100% OEM and unmolested. Just what I was looking for.

I did zero it out and do a full paint correction along with some wheel refinishing, but for the most part kept it a driver and we've enjoyed using it as such. When I was doing the paint correction, the wife did comment that she was afraid I was making it too nice for me to mentally enjoy it, so I had to scale back a bit on my end goal.

I'm trying to keep it pristine, but I'm also trying to be realistic in why we bought the car and that was to drive and enjoy.

Mike, Gary, et al just a bit of a followup. My dad was a car fanatic-no eating, drinking or such in his vehicles, pristine and perfect as he could.

Our cars/toys, etc need to be exercised. I am a believer of drive them. Many of the cars/trucks I enjoy, my kids won't keep or enjoy. I'm fine with that, so the idea of preserving the paint so it's perfect, fixing the slightest of flaws not my cup of tea. At car shows I let folks sit in my car and especially youngsters. I want the next generation to enjoy them like I have. Recently discussed this with cronies, and told them my instructions for the cars is they go to auction when I pass. Enjoy the checks kids!

Lastly I'll add do it now while you can, no one knows what tomorrow holds.

Joel, I couldn't agree more about cars needing to be exercised. Hell, anything mechanical needs to be exercised for that matter to keep the functioning properly. I am very vocal about this in the RV realm. I tell people who are thinking about buying an RV that if they can't afford to use it (time or money), then don't buy it because they need to be exercised on a regular basis. The worst thing to do to an RV is let them sit. I have said repeatedly that if I need to replace hoses, belts and fluids, I would rather replace them based on miles than age alone.

I just need to fully adopt that mindset when it comes to our car. The Jeep and truck I already have that mindset and they get used heavily and consistently. As for building the next car(s), I am in a hold pattern until retirement. I know this is not ideal, but I am so focused right now on getting the mortgage paid off and building up our nest egg, that nothing else is really a priority right now. I'm sure that people may disagree with me on that, but I actually think I enjoy building cars more so than owning them. For that I need time. I only have a few hours a night to work in the shop so right now it is focused on making money and keeping our assets maintained. Once I have 10+ hours a day to work, I will shift my attention to another build, and so on.

Honestly other than driving it, the best part of owning a nice/fun car is letting kids that are excited sit in it for a few min and get their pictures taken. The joy it brings them is infectious and I look at it as fueling the next generation of car lovers.

I am not there. I don't like others in or on my vehicles, but my grandson is a different situation. To see the joy it brings him to sit in Papa's car or Jeep and enjoy them is something I am looking forward to more and more.

Don’t get me wrong, I like “pristine” and try to maintain them to this standard. I’m just not willing to give up driving them to attain that standard.

Gary, again, I think my mindset has changed over the years. I think some of that was being able to be around some high caliber builders in the 80's and 90's. I was so focused on perfection, that I could not and would not accept anything less. Then as I began to interact with some of these high-end builders, I began to kind of hear a theme and realized there is no such thing as a perfect car. EVERY builder knows exactly where the flaws are at, they just don't advertise or go around pointing them out. However, ask any show car builder and they know an area or part or two that they may be less than thrilled with the way it turned out. A gap here or a fitment there, something that just doesn't look or fit the way they want it to. The builder knows.

I try to keep that in mind and although I shoot for perfection in some things, I realize that it can be crippling to some degree. I have seen some cars never be completed because the builder keeps redoing some aspect of the car and simply cannot get past it to move on to the next. So it then becomes a question of does the build get killed because it isn't perfect, or does it move forward and the builder just accepts when something is "good enough"? Only the builder can answer that question.

My Jeep is what I would call "nice", but far from perfect. Going off-road with a vehicle will certainly change one's mindset on scratches and dings. I recently took it in for the annual emissions test and the person performing the test was shocked at the year and how many miles it has on it. Although I was flattered, I know it is not perfect as it has some scratches from our spring trip to Kanab that I need to polish out. But I also know that clear is finite and have to make that determination on how many times and how deep I go to polish out a few scratches before I will need to repaint or at least reclear it. It is all a balancing act, but I built the Jeep to enjoy and the wife and I definitely enjoy it. So for that, I can live with a few scratches as it brings joy to us to actually use it.

Same with our coach, as pristine and meticulous I try to keep it, it has a few rock chips on the front and I don't let it keep me from enjoying it. For almost a nine-year-old paint job I think it is pretty nice, but far from perfect. I am overall happy with it for 150k miles and 24 years old. I am sure it will end up with a few more rock chips each year, but I guess that's a sign we are using and enjoying it. I'm sure the coach will be the first thing sold when the wife and I are gone as my son has no interest in RV's. The daily drivers and Camaro I want to keep them nice for us as well as to pass down, but the coach is solely for mine and the wife's enjoyment.

 

[moab11]

I get the not wanting others in the car, and it's definitely a personal choice. If I'm out somewhere and there are some young kids that seem excited about the car, and they are well behaved, I'll offer them to sit in it. It's an 03, and not in pristine condition, but nice shape and has the allure about it still.