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Well, this *****...'Dear John' Letter from Belkin

AntonLargiader

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I have a few Wemos that are working through HomeKit and they should be OK for a while, but over time I'm sure they will be unsupportable by me if they lose their config or something like that. I'm gradually switching over to Lutron Caseta.
 
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duneslider

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While it is easy to go all boo hoo on the technology, there are good reasons for it. I have a bunch of kasa stuff and it works really well but I also wouldn't be surprised if TP-Link drops the service. Of course the switches still work manually, so its not like its the end of the world, its just the extra features that are nice.

I have my front house lights automatically come on and turn off.
I have power to some animal bowl water heaters turn on and off.
I have the lights in my workshop auto off at midnight cause I tend to forget to turn them off.
House christmas lights turn on and off at designated times.
Smart switches on bath fans, you just hit the button and they are programmed to turn off after 15 minutes.

Sure there are other ways to do all the above but these smart switches were pretty affordable and convenient.

When I looked at the Lutron Caseta it seemed like a good product line but it seemed like the hub you had to buy didn't have great range and I was going to need multiple hubs for my house which seemed like a turn off to me at the time. Maybe I am wrong with that line of thinking. I also remember thinking the Caseta was kind of expensive.
 

pembol

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While it is easy to go all boo hoo on the technology, there are good reasons for it. I have a bunch of kasa stuff and it works really well but I also wouldn't be surprised if TP-Link drops the service. Of course the switches still work manually, so its not like its the end of the world, its just the extra features that are nice.

I have my front house lights automatically come on and turn off.
I have power to some animal bowl water heaters turn on and off.
I have the lights in my workshop auto off at midnight cause I tend to forget to turn them off.
House christmas lights turn on and off at designated times.
Smart switches on bath fans, you just hit the button and they are programmed to turn off after 15 minutes.

Sure there are other ways to do all the above but these smart switches were pretty affordable and convenient.

When I looked at the Lutron Caseta it seemed like a good product line but it seemed like the hub you had to buy didn't have great range and I was going to need multiple hubs for my house which seemed like a turn off to me at the time. Maybe I am wrong with that line of thinking. I also remember thinking the Caseta was kind of expensive.
The Casetas are definitely pricier per device, but you do get what you pay for and they are often available at a significant discount on ebay. For me, it was case of if I am going to hard wire dozens of these devices in the new house, I want to make sure they will continue to do what they do for decades, no matter if 2.4Ghz wifi or cloud servers go away. I was also concerned about range, and thought I might need a second hub, but so far it has been fine, even for switches in detached garage 100' from the hub and through 3 walls. The Pico remotes are kind of the 'killer app' for the Caseta system - you can basically surface mount a matching wireless dimmer/switch anywhere, without wiring or cutting drywall. I also like that the response is instant - the pico's communicate directly with the device they are controlling, no hub necessary.

I know there are a bunch of curmudgeons who don't see the point of all this, but there are lots of reasonable use cases for these, and of course they still work like nice dimmer switches without the smarts. The obvious cases are 2/3/4 way switches - as many slave switches as you want and no complicated wiring required. Scenes are another one - to put the lights how we like them in the evening requires turning 5-6 switches, with automation you can have one button that sets all the lights to the correct levels. Timers are great for porch lights, fans, air compressors etc. Motion lights are easy to implement, particularly when you can't be seen from the switch you want to turn on - the motion sensor can be remote from the switch. One of my favorites is having a pico remote stuck to the wall by the house door that leads to the detached garage - I can switch the garage lights on from the house on the way out - that would have cost me $1000's in additional wiring/conduit to implement with romex.
 

duneslider

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The Casetas are definitely pricier per device, but you do get what you pay for and they are often available at a significant discount on ebay. For me, it was case of if I am going to hard wire dozens of these devices in the new house, I want to make sure they will continue to do what they do for decades, no matter if 2.4Ghz wifi or cloud servers go away. I was also concerned about range, and thought I might need a second hub, but so far it has been fine, even for switches in detached garage 100' from the hub and through 3 walls. The Pico remotes are kind of the 'killer app' for the Caseta system - you can basically surface mount a matching wireless dimmer/switch anywhere, without wiring or cutting drywall. I also like that the response is instant - the pico's communicate directly with the device they are controlling, no hub necessary.

I know there are a bunch of curmudgeons who don't see the point of all this, but there are lots of reasonable use cases for these, and of course they still work like nice dimmer switches without the smarts. The obvious cases are 2/3/4 way switches - as many slave switches as you want and no complicated wiring required. Scenes are another one - to put the lights how we like them in the evening requires turning 5-6 switches, with automation you can have one button that sets all the lights to the correct levels. Timers are great for porch lights, fans, air compressors etc. Motion lights are easy to implement, particularly when you can't be seen from the switch you want to turn on - the motion sensor can be remote from the switch. One of my favorites is having a pico remote stuck to the wall by the house door that leads to the detached garage - I can switch the garage lights on from the house on the way out - that would have cost me $1000's in additional wiring/conduit to implement with romex.
This reminded me why I was so interested in them. I was going to use it primarily for my basement to handle the 3 way/4 way switches and use the pico's instead. I figured the savings in copper alone would pay for it.
 

dcg9381

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I knew that the subscription model was coming to automobiles; however, I never realized it was also being used in homes. I wonder how long it will be before a savvy attorney starts a class-action lawsuit against them.
Even the software in your car has an End Of Life on support, think about your nav system...

All of these devices incur support costs (I don't mean with the end consumer) - but basically keeping them "alive" as cloud software changes. I expect them all to have an end of life date. To many integration points.
 

whateg01

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Even the software in your car has an End Of Life on support, think about your nav system...

All of these devices incur support costs (I don't mean with the end consumer) - but basically keeping them "alive" as cloud software changes. I expect them all to have an end of life date. To many integration points.
Too many integration points for you. For the car maker who doesn't really care about the 2nd buyer, it's fine because the person spending new vehicle money on the new vehicle is enticed by the bells and whistles. That's who the car maker cares about. Critical functions are typically not reliant on the cloud - I would guess that Tesla is one of the few exceptions. So, the SYNC1 system in my Edge sucked. By the time I bought the car, there were aftermarket solutions that do a pretty decent job of integrating into the car and allow more modern features to be added.
 

American Locomotive

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Remember when ZigBee was supposed to finally be the wireless home automation standard to rule all? Then someone figured out how to package a wifi access point and a cpu with a full ethernet and IP stack in a lightbulb, and it was all over.

I think an "offline" zigbee coordinator that's connected to your network (but not the internet) and an app that offers local connectivity to the coordinator (i.e., when you're on your wireless network only) would be ideal. No cloud server needed, lower security risk since nothing is going over the internet, and your stuff won't stop working when the company closes its doors or Amazon AWS goes down.
 

b-boy

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Buffalo NY
I had a similar experience with a fairly expensive standalone internet radio I bought several years ago. My wife wanted it for the kitchen. It worked great for about 2 years. Then I got an email from the manufacturer explaining that the radio would stop functioning because they lost their data provider. Essentially, the device was bricked because they could not come to an agreement with the data supplier. Seems like someone would have thought about this. I assumed the manufacturer was the one managing the services.

They did offer to give me 20% of of a replacement device that was $350. I passed on their generous offer.

Now I have a Google device that listens to everything I say. Works great and Google probably won't go under anytime soon. :D
 
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mrVanagon

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Belleville, IL, USA
I second the Caseta endorsement. I have tried most of the other brands and had various problems. Caseta costs a bit more than others but has been rock solid from day one.
 

dcg9381

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Too many integration points for you. For the car maker who doesn't really care about the 2nd buyer, it's fine because the person spending new vehicle money on the new vehicle is enticed by the bells and whistles. That's who the car maker cares about. Critical functions are typically not reliant on the cloud - I would guess that Tesla is one of the few exceptions.
Hey, I bought ONE new car in my lifetime. Ram. It's nav was tied to subscription as was "speech to text" - so there is at least some cloud tie in there over the cellular system. I understand that some of this can be replaced by aftermarket stuff.

Tesla, I can run tethered to my phone. Which is a nice option.

It was more about any "cloud enabled" device - they'll not last forever. As SSL/TLS encryption protocols improve (and they do over time) eventually stuff ages out on that side, even assuming that the service is compatible with older devices..
 

Shiftless

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Going WAY back on light switches here is a working example of a push button switch with the mother of pearl marker for the on function. This one is for sale on eBay but it is just like many of the light switches that were originally installed in my parents’ house in San Francisco when it was new in the 1920’s. They still operated properly when they sold the house in 1974. They might still be in the house, I don’t know.
My house was built in 1950. I kept one of the strong spring activated lever click switch on the wall controlling a seldom used light to remind me of the really old days. Except for a loud click and a bit more effort required to activate, it still works great!

Here is the push button style.

3B4AED50-D444-4868-B6B3-8B6E42FEB335.jpeg
 

walta

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Now I have a Google device that listens to everything I say. Works great and Google probably won't go under anytime soon. :D
Don’t kid yourself. All the home assistants (Google home, Alexa, Bixby, Siri) are all money losers at the present time sooner or later they will monetize them or the service will go away. Remember if you’re not paying for a service, you are the product. Same for the AI stuff.
 
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PCustoms

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Don’t kid yourself. All the home assistants (Google home, Alexa, Bixby, Siri) are all money losers at the present time sooner or later they will monetize them or the service will go away. Remember if you’re not paying for a service, you are the product. Same for the AI stuff.

I'm not convinced the purpose of those home assistants is to (directly) make money
 

AntonLargiader

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How reliable have your Wemo switches been? I bought some about six years ago (I posted here at the time) and for a long time they were fine. Every now and then one would go offline, but usually some time would cure that. Then about a year ago one of them went offline and couldn't be brought back at all; a full reset left it waiting for a reconfiguration but the app could never find it. Now I have a second one (out of four) that is being difficult ever since a power outage yesterday. I'll use them as long as they work, but six years isn't really a long life in my mind.
 

AntonLargiader

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I also have some Leviton, Kasa, and GHome wireless switches installed.
I initially bought some 1st-gen Levitons but they just were not reliable. I think I got refunded AND they sent me some replacements which I may have given away because I just didn't want to go there again. These were specifically the HomeKit ones. I hear the 2nd-gen were much better; maybe the ones they sent me were those?

Anyway, then I went to Wemo and now slowly migrating to Lutron. Over on HomeAssistant, people really like Shelly and Lutron.

Subscriptions: I think we collectively are in the middle of a learning process where we see the continued bricking of functional devices (why would ANYONE buy another Nest product, ever?) due to termination of cloud services and those who care will be buying local-only devices. Some people don't care.

As for why use smart switches; yeah I'm sure there are a handful of people who use them to turn on a light across the room without getting up off the sofa, but the vast majority of use cases that I see are scenes and automations. If I say, "Hey Siri, turn on the driveway" then three different lights in two buildings turn on. At night, those lights turn on automatically when I arrive home.
 
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kbuhagiar

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How reliable have your Wemo switches been?
Quite reliable, actually. I bought most of them around 2014-15 and installed them in our second home, mostly to automate light activation when we weren't there. The first six months or so there were a few glitches, but after subsequent firmware upgrades they were rock solid. I also have a couple of their wireless plugs, and they were a bit more fiddly but they too eventually settled in.

The Wemo phone app was admittedly no prize, but it was usuable and still better than most of the other crappy wireless switch apps I have encountered over the years.
 

rebelranger

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Tp link and kasa. They cross communicate are cheap have a good app and selection of goods. They also can do ittt, alexa, etc.
 

reader2580

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My employer has a bunch of WI-FI access points that are cloud managed. We were assured before purchase that if the cloud service went away that the APs would keep working. They can still have their configs changed if the cloud service is gone, but you have to access each AP separately to configure them.

My employer also has some Meraki Access Points at another facility that require a yearly subscription to function at all. We allowed one of our Meraki licenses for an unused firewall to expire. Cisco decided to turn off all of our Meraki licenses when just one license expired even though the other equipment had valid licenses. That was a fun day since we have automated guided vehicles that depend on WI-FI to function.
 

Skooterj

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Could be worse

I had a relative do their whole house in the RadioShack wireless switches...
Hey, X-10 (the technology RadioShack used in it's wireless switches) is still going strong.

I use Kasa switches in my detached garage. I like them, the app works, they work with Google Home. I can set schedules. They work manually as well, so even if online quits, they work just like regular switches. But I can turn them off by voice when my hands are covered in grease, or from the house if I forgot to hit the switch on the way out the door.
 
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