Boy I sure am glad the OP is here to help save us all from what he thinks are MISTAKES!
Thirty years ago HF was a funny-smelling store full of junk. That's not true any more. I don't know why it bothers people so much. (and if you want to scream about China and you've darkened the door of a Walmart, please don't bother).
IDGAF about the brands - I buy what does a good job and what I think is a good value. Sometimes I give gifts to myself or have to buy something that is unique in one way or another. Occasionally something is just better than the alternatives. The best example I can think of is Knipex Cobras - those things bite better and last better than pretty much everything. And unlike a lot of tools, it's a difference I can see in routine use of the tool. That philosophy has put everything from SnapOn, Matco, Knipex, etc. to Icon to truly inexpensive brands.
But all of my tools work well and do the job. I get rid of anything that doesn't. That's yielded a bit of SnapOn, a lot of Icon and a smattering of everything else. Where I have things that go head-to-head (for example SO and Icon ratchets and sockets), they are close enough to make zero difference in doing the job and feeling good while doing it. I have zero doubt a pro mechanic could use my tools to do the job daily and be 100% fine.
As far as "posing", there's literally nobody outside of this forum I have any conversations with about my tools. It's just me in my garage doing work. IDGAF if anyone approves or disapproves of my tools.
In regards to what shoreline is saying, if HF just copied Snap On, they shouldn't (like you said) have any issues. Snap On did the R+D to make a quality design.
To play devil's advocate, there are so many good quality tools available these days that you would have to purposefully go out of the way to find junk stuff. Intellectual property "sharing" (stealing) is probably just as responsible as is manufacturing advancements.
Most people who decry "stealing" don't know what they're talking about. SO has definitely used previous invention/design from other companies and built on it. Nearly every multi-product company in the world has - because it's the way the system is designed on purpose. The "theft" most people are talking about is 100% legal and allowed.
I get why people don't like when companies like HF copy the look/feel of another company like Snap On/Knipex. I find it silly, but as long as the tools work like I want them to, I don't really care. I'm not fooling anybody because there's nobody to fool. If you're a pro, people are going to know what they are or aren't. It's not fooling anyone.
I have Icon, snap on, Mac, craftsman, you name it. Have lots of Icon at work and abuse them daily. Have yet to warranty any of it.
There's no way you're real [/sarcasm]
I turn wrenches for a living. My opinion is to use good tools that get the job done. I view a "poser" as the guy who uses the fact that they own Snap-on as evidence that they must be a good mechanic, when really that is irrelevant and the quality if his work is what matters.
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So I have a bit of a different take on this. I don't have issue with people buying/using HF stuff, like Icon, in and of itself. What I do take issue with is when those same people claim that anyone buying the actual Snap-On/Knipex/etc. are doing so just to push an image. I find it ridiculously hypocritical that someone buying a Snap-On or Knipex
look-a-like will turn around and grief someone buying the real thing.
After all, if you're buying the shamelessly marketed
look-a-like product, that would suggest to some folks that you're trying to look like the very people you're criticizing, just at lower price point. If I'm a brand ***** for buying Knipex, for example, what does that make these folks for buying
look-a-like Knipex? Should I infer that they want to
look-like brand whores from a distance?
Other than than, I say to each his own.
I agree with your last sentence. I don't care what you spend your own money on.
I don't think that everyone buying SO is doing it to push an image, but there are definitely people like that out there. And a lot of them are the loudest critics of anything non-SO. But whatever the reason, I think the anti-HF crew is more vocal and more sensitive than the anti-SO crew. I have both, and I like both.
30-40 years ago there was little competing with SO for quality. That's just not true any more, and in a lot of cases the margin is really tight.
Yup, nothing from HF is allowed to be in my garage for this reason.
Sometimes I feel like I’m the only one that looks at it this way.
It's your hill. You can stand on it if you want to. I don't agree with it, but it's not my hill.
I'd expect the same courtesy from you.
Are you sure? Lets say they average 45 hours a week its 81,900 dollars. Lets be generous and say its 61,425 after the usual taxes.
National average for 1 bedroom apartment rent is 1,750. Lets say they are renting a studio that is 995 a month
995 Rent (studio low end estimate maybe roomate situation)
500 for healthcare/insurance (premium and copays)
270 for car insurance (average 25 year old full coverage because everything is on loan/credit now)
529 for an average used car payment
600 for utilities and groceries (low end generous estimate)
300 gasoline/tire/oil etc for car and repair budget
Education debt? Tool budget?
You are left with 23,097 bucks
That is 1,924.75 per month IF you live like a monk, perfectly healthy, dont go out, dont save for 401k/retirement and have no debt to service.
You have to me a LOT more judicious with your spending in 2025. Salaries stay stagnant but everything else costs more.
Realistically? These are very low end estimates. If you aren't healthy deductibles and prescription medicine will kill you.
Other locations will kill your budget with rent prices. Other places are affordable with **** wages.
Live in the rust belt? Car will fall apart in front of your eyes.
No vacations and 45 every single week, eh?
I'd guess most aren't achieving $23K a month after core expenses. And lordy I hope people are saving for when it's time to put the wrenches down...
There were multiple lawsuits. Some were won some were lost. HF ripped off a lot of companies.
What were the ones that HF lost?
Oh there was another lawsuit involving Snapon on and the jack "manufacturer". Somebody in Snapon legal got fired.
Which one was that?
The original jack lawsuit between SO and HF was a debacle for HF. They settled after the judge warned them (in so many words) that their suit was going to be summarily dismissed if they didn't. I think the sued because some SO exec didn't understand IP law, and they failed miserably.
These threads are a good reminder.
And, knowing about them in general and knowing about the specific practice of trying to duplicate snap on are two different things.
In the real world, most Icon tools are giving 95% of the performance of their SO equivalents. There are exceptions, but not all that many.
Not liking their business model/practices and implying that has anything to do with the quality/performance of the tool are two different things.
What is this ragebait...yeah 15 years ago HF was all junk. There is still a good majority that is junk but also they've also moved upmarket on a lot of tools and toolboxes that the Snap-on folks just can't cope with. They've closed the quality gap, significantly, on certain items. They've also risen in prices which is something that a lot of retailers do....they hook people with china cheap, move upmarket too much, to which people ask themselves why they are going to a discount retailer in the first place. That is something HF is going to have to contend with.
True enough. It may work fine for them too. Time will tell.
They have always been that way.
I'm guilty of being a SO poser, from the get go. My family never shopped Sears, (no idea about Craftsman) and my brother was already on the SO bandwagon at the gas/service station. So, wanting to be cool, 50 years ago, with my $2.50/hr or so part time gas jockey job, my "buy once" first set of tools, was 10 pc 3/8" SAE ratchet socket set, I think I paid almost $150 for. Didn't even come with a storage case. Purchased a couple of other socket sets, at similar high prices.
I think I actually dodged the driver a couple of times, because i spent my big check on $6 rock concert tickets, or beer. I still have all of those tools today, so maybe it was a worthwhile purchase, but if they had been Sears, I'd probably still have them as well.
Perspective is a good thing.
