I was joking
People care more about arguing about flex tools, than they care about flex tools
Flex Power Tools
- Thread starter Steel_Rain
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People care more about arguing about flex tools, than they care about flex tools
Sorry, I mistyped, it's Craftsman. Hey, they are both red lol
No, I posted incorrectly, I meant Craftsman. I do have a Milwaukee set from Lowes, but it was bought years ago.
Thanks for the link, it's curious that did not come up in a search, while some of the other bigger FLEX tool user groups did.
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Steel_Rain
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neophyte
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There are two “major” “collaborative” battery systems.
The Cordless-Alliance-System, basically using the Metabo, or former Metabo battery system,( the German Metabo, not Merabo HPT, which used to be Hitachi’s Power tool division).
And the Bosch AMPShare system, using the current Bosch battery system.
Both systems started out with tool brands that were essentially German, likely because there are a large number of niche specialty German, (and European), power tool manufacturers, that don’t make their own motors, or at least their own cordless motors, and which historically would usually purchase motors, cordless motors, and battery systems from other major tool producers.
Metabo, Bosch, Milwaukee/AEG/Atlas Copco, Suhner, and sometimes Black & Decker/Dewalt/ELU, were some of the major suppliers of the motors and battery systems to the smaller manufacturers.
Festool and Fein used to come up with their own battery systems, which sometimes had batteries that varied by tool, and which would also sometimes radically change each time a new drill or tool was introduced.
The problem with buying motors and battery systems from the larger manufacturers, was that the niche manufacturers tended to be making specialty tools for industrial use that could easily cost $1,000-$2,000 each or more, and if the motor or battery manufacturer switched to a new platform or had heavier than normal demand, it could leave the niche manufacturers with orphaned tools which required aftermarket batteries, or completely new motors, or which required tool replacement, and customers likely didn’t like having to replace $2,000 tools simply because the brand whose name was on the tool switched to a new battery system.
Metabo, Bosch, and Milwaukee however kept switching to non compatible battery systems, leaving older tools orphaned.
For a $200 drill, this isn’t such a major expense, but for a $2,000 tool, it is.
Milwaukee seems to have decided to just try manufacturing every possible type of tool, and to not supply other tool manufacturers, but maybe they still do to some extent.
Metabo got purchased by Hitachi, which then sold Metabo and the Hitachi power tool division to KKR, a private Equity company, who probably figured the money was in making a battery system for any tool manufacturer that wanted to sign up.
Bosch also decoded to go this path, but maybe Bosch fid this because of altruism, because technically, Bosch is a non-profit foundation.
Some niche manufacturers seem to have signed up to botch systems, allowing industrial customers to choose whichever works best for them.
Aaron_W
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The adoption of Craftsman is a good example of that, as they are basically adopting a second house brand (with a higher profile) which competes against their own established Kobalt brand.
I guess it could be argued HD has a similar situation with Ryobi and Rigid, but I feel like those two brands have less direct less overlap. Cordless they are pretty similar, but I feel like Rigid offers more robust tools than Ryobi on the corded and bench top side.
That could just be my ignorance though, as I own some Ryobi and Rigid tools to compare, but no Kobalt or "new" Craftsman.
Lorydr
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2 years ago, I needed a new drill/driver combo. I didn't want the red or yellow pricey ones. I got a good online deal from Flex that included a 3rd battery. A couple of those leaked, but the company replaced them pronto.
I got a Flex sticker or 2, and put one on my old ford flex. Made it run so much better. Haha
The tools do perform well at least.
dnschmidt
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Craftsman to me is like the line from "Won't Get Fooled Again" by the Who. "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss." Same **** different day. SBD destroyed Porter-Cable and Craftsman is just round #2. FLEX is quality product just under marketed and faced with the battery problem all cordless tool brands face. Even Bosch, a global killer, ***** hind *** in America due to Milwaukee and DeWalt's established battery system dominance. And Makita seems hell bent on self destruction with their outdated and super overpriced batteries.
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Steel_Rain
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This is what really kills me, the tools are great. They are powerful and perform well. They lack balance / refinement, but overall, they are quality tools with quality materials that are built tough. You can tell that Chervon did they're homework.
finn
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Why the hate for Craftsman? It’s a brand targeted at a certain market. Pretty much like Kobalt, Ryobi, Ridgid, and Skil, among others.
The tools seem ok for that target market, and are priced well below mother Dewalt or Milwaukee. The brand covers everything from small hand tools to lawn and garden to garage door openers to tool storage, way broader than the Ryobi, etc competitors.
Nothing wrong with them in that target market segment and at that price point. They aren’t flashy, or the most powerful, but that market doesn’t demand that. Tools in that price range spend most of their life in a drawer.
They have wide distribution and name recognition. Distribution is certainly better than Ryobi, Kobalt, and Ridgid, which each pretty much have one outlet.
Same with Porter Cable. It’s down to being a house brand at TSC, which is ok by me. I bought a couple of PC corded grinders last year and they do their job, just like my thirty five year old corded sander and the thirty year old brad nailer, trim nailer, and pancake compressor. I guess Craftsman essentially fills that void now, so Craftsman would or at least could, logically fill in as replacements should those ancient tools give up the ghost on me. With the exception of the sander which is a relic from when PC was an industrial brand, none of PC tools I have see heavy use. They were mostly bought because that’s what I thought I could afford at the time, and I have no regrets.
I have some Chinese craftsman cordless tools. I’ve been using for over 15 years. maybe people aren’t using them right
Porter cable tool products were eviscerated by Rockwell 40 years before SBD purchased them
Ohio Andy
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I still have and use my cordless Milwaukee stuff that I purchased at Sears... I'm sure that was just last year.... (Narrator says it was before his 20-year-old daughter was born... And probably before he was married...)
neophyte
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Sears released plenty of **** under the Craftsman name decades ago, along with decent tools as well.
Some of the Craftsman tools were simply rebrands of tools from other US manufacturers, such as Vaughan hammers, but it really varied.
The Craftsman Professional line had a number of imported tools, many of which were well made.
Stanley B&D is just basically continuing the same trend, just with more imports, to keep the prices were buyers likely expect the prices to be.
I wonder if it is an issue with Facebook search? When I search I get pages of FLEX groups.What other "bigger" FLEX groups? Here are the Facebook Groups for FLEX:
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Steel_Rain
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Show me. Screenshot and post.
JerseyBoatBuilder
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I mentioned in the Lowes deals thread that I have talked to the EGO/FLEX/Skil area rep, also have their business card. I figured I would eventually run in to them while I am there and today I did.
The rep said Flex will be online only after the existing stock sells through. The island planogram it was on is already switching to Dewalt.
They also said possibly the same thing might happen with Skil.
To add to all of that and what I have said in the past here is a screen shot of the Lowes MST reset information.
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The rep said Flex will be online only after the existing stock sells through. The island planogram it was on is already switching to Dewalt.
They also said possibly the same thing might happen with Skil.
To add to all of that and what I have said in the past here is a screen shot of the Lowes MST reset information.
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Steel_Rain
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This echoes what many others have heard from FLEX / Chervon reps over the last 4-6 weeks. This could be store dependent, but doubtful the brand will stick around, even in those locations.
This guy claims to have confirmed it directly with FLEX:
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Steel_Rain
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No Lowes in a 100-mile radius of my location is allowing you to buy FLEX tools online any longer:
I was on Lowes site yesterday evening and all the tools, except for a few tool sets, were available to purchase online. Now, nothing.
If you care, check your location to see if Lowes allows you to purchase anything online from FLEX.
This means the thought that FLEX is going to be sold by Lowes "online" isn't accurate.
I was on Lowes site yesterday evening and all the tools, except for a few tool sets, were available to purchase online. Now, nothing.
If you care, check your location to see if Lowes allows you to purchase anything online from FLEX.
This means the thought that FLEX is going to be sold by Lowes "online" isn't accurate.
It makes sense for Lowes to get rid of Flex, and also Skil (which may not happen). Flex is a small seller which directly competes with DeWalt, and Skil competes with Kobalt, which I believe has a much bigger line of products. It's better to cut out the brands with low sales that directly compete with top selling brands, focus on the big sellers, and dedicate the shelf space to what sells.
Brands like Flex, Ridgid, Bosch, Makita, Skil.... must each only have a few percent of brick-and-mortar cordless tool sales in the US.
Brands like Flex, Ridgid, Bosch, Makita, Skil.... must each only have a few percent of brick-and-mortar cordless tool sales in the US.
That's a big leap and not a reachable conclusion from the evidence. FLEX tools are currently available only in-store, but that is likely to change. I have no specific verified information yet, but it seems unlikely they will continue to sell in-store only, so the online availability is likely to return. They are probably working on entering the new products and part numbers online, so those will likely appear when that work is complete. As I mentioned previously, the new line up is expected in-store mid-January, so it may not show up online much before that either.
I'm curious where you are getting your data on market share, since it is quite different from the data I have found.
FLEX is not a "small seller" and I don't think DeWalt is their main competition, since DeWalt is more of a DIY brand while FLEX is targeting pros. Skil is somewhere between DeWalt and Bosch, and also has one of the larger market shares.
I see this statement on here somewhat often, and find it curious.
In my part of the world, Dewalt is easily the most popular color with professional users. Milwaukee is hardly rare, but yellow is abundant on every job site you see. The lumberyards that cater to professionals stock Dewalt, while Milwaukee is more likely to be seen at the plumbing and electrical supply houses.
I’ve never seen FLEX anywhere but the shelves of the Lowe’s.
dnschmidt
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FLEX IS GOOD STUFF. That stated they are a pimple on the *** of either DeWalt or Milwaukee.
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Steel_Rain
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I’ve never heard anyone in the trades around my area refer to DeWalt as a “DIY brand”.
hefnerconstructionlc
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I agree, DeWalt is not diy. I'm personally in the Milwaukee battery platform, but have several DeWalt corded items. It's either DeWalt or Milwaukee 80% and then all the other brands filling the last 20%. And 20% would be generous.
neophyte
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Dewalt is literally a “Professional Brand”, and was the replacement branding Black & Decker purchased for their Industrial tool models, after screwing up the Black & Decker brand by making really cheap consumer grade tools under the Black & Decker branding.
The cheap consumer tools were a different color from the actual industrial grade tools, but the reputation problem persisted.
Black & Decker originally tried rebranding the actual Professional and Industrial grade tools as “Black & Decker Professional” and “Black & Decker Industrial” but that didn’t really work well enough.
B& D also bought the formerly German Elu brand, partially for the tool designs, but also for the branding, but eventually all the higher end tools were rebranded as Dewalt.
I haven’t tried the newer DWE625 plunge router, but the DW625 older model of the same router was inherited from ELU, and was likely one of the best plunge router designs ever made, and I iwn a couple Festool routers, which gave advantages in some ways, but which are not as well designed in others.
dnschmidt
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I think you are wrong about Elu being German. I have a ton of their routers and they were always Italian. You are right about the DW625 and it's Gray brother being fantastic plunge routers.
neophyte
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ELU was originally based in Germany.
They were originally a hand tool division of I think this manufacturer, which still exists.
Product Range
Discover our industrial machines for machining aluminium, PVC, steel and light alloy profiles. Choose our quality and innovation now.
www.elumatec.com
The manufacturer made both hand held portable power tools, and stationary equipment.
Due to competition in I think the 1980s, the company sold the hand tool division, along with some of the more portable stationary designs like the flip saw, to Black & Decker, and with B&D getting the ELU branding.
The company changed the brand name for the larger stationary equipment they still manufactured.
Black & Decker either hired an outside girm, or set up their own manufacturing plant, first in Switzerland, were a number of the ELU designs such as the plunge routers being manufactured in Switzerland.
I have heard of the former Swiss Perles brand being associated with the Swiss production, but am unsure.
(The Perles brand is still around, although nowadays based in Slovenia).
Production of the plunge routers later switched to Italy, and I am unsure whether that is in a Black & Decker owned facility, or outsourced.
OneEyedMan
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20+ years ago Dewalt was seen here as a DIY/pro-sumer brand. That followed them here until well into the 20v days.
If you saw a rancher or farmer working on something, 100% chance it was with a Dewalt drill. At garage sales you could buy totes of Dewalt drills with a recip saw or two thrown in. Makita was what the “real carpenters” used.
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dnschmidt
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Makita makes great stuff and I have a lot of it but they have really pissed me off with their insane battery pricing and obsolete battery technology. Nobody still uses 18650 cells in their top of the line batteries anymore except Makita and they still charge more for them than I can get Milwaukee FORGE and Dewalt PowerStack batteries. I can buy MIlwaukee 5.0 batteries from Genuine Tools for about $60 and Makita wants at least twice than for their 5.0 18650 battery. THIS IS CRAZY.
neophyte
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Makita varied, with some tools built like DIY ****, and others being heavily made, and this was 20-30 years ago.
Hitachi was sort of similar, with cordless tools that were basically considered cheap consumer grade, then cordless tools that were affordable, but still decent, and then dome heavier tools such as nailers and miter saws, that were considered for professional use, such as timber framing.
Bosch has their two lines in Europe, with blue for professionals, and green for DIY, although in the USA, the Green tools used to sometimes show up under the regular blue Bosch color scheme, and the cheaper tools for DIY were rebranded as Skil. (Until Bosch sold the Skil brand to Chervon).
FLEX is available at several suppliers that cater to the trades as well as hardware stores.
Interesting, DeWalt is essentially Black and Decker. It may just be your area or region, I have noticed there seem to be regional preferences for certain brands. Around here, you wouldn't be likely to find DeWalt on a pro worksite. As a practical matter, I have not had good experience with DeWalt tools, they break down too often and warranty repairs are problematic. That may be regional, though, since the tools are not popular in this area.
Farmall450
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Ditto. Did he mean to type Ryobi?
My "data" isn't data but what I see used and how much space a brand has at a store. DeWalt is not really a DIY brand, Ryobi is; DeWalt is what most contractors use, by far, in my area. I've NEVER seen anyone building a deck, building anything, in my area using Ridgid, Flex, Makita or Bosch cordless tools, it's >90% DeWalt and the rest Milwaukee. Same with general contractors- DeWalt, by far where I live. Granted, this is anecdotal, but again, Makita, Bosch, Ridgid cordless tools have a tiny amount of space at HD in comparison to DeWalt and Milwaukee. Flex sales in the US are irrelevant in comparison to DeWalt- HF probably sells more of their brands.
If you have data on US cordless tool sales, please share it.
Same where I live. I have plenty of neighbors that use both Ryobi and DeWalt, but 90% of contractors here use DeWalt as I said above.