Step up to 2lb natural gas system?

[ForceFed70]

I plan to bring natural gas from my house to the shop. However, it will be a 180' run.

I've been told that I will need to switch to a 2lb system (instead of current 1/2lb). This means that each gas appliance in the house will get it's own regulator, and that I will need to install a new meter, etc.

Does this sound right to you guys? I would prefer not to do this and will buy a larger gas line if required.

 

[redsky49]

Insufficient data to provide an accurate answer.

It could be quite possible to operate at low pressures, depending on your particular requirements. For example, 200' @ 0.3" pressure loss would indicate a 1" line for 100 cubic feet per hour, or 100,000 btuh input.

You will need to examine existing as well as new equipment for a proper determination.

As always, offered only as opinion

 

[kursplat]

ok, i know nothing about this, so i need to ask...
why don't you get 1/2 lb at the end of the line if you have 1/2 lb at the beginning of the line regardless of length?

thanks

 

[MattT]

why don't you get 1/2 lb at the end of the line if you have 1/2 lb at the beginning of the line regardless of length?

Losses due to flow.

Depends on what you already have and what the shop's demand will be. IIRC the whole house regulator is after the meter so I don't see why you couldn't tee in between them and run a line to the shop with a regulator at the shop. That's if your line to the meter, and the meter itself, have enough capacity.

 

[stingry]

I've been told that I will need to switch to a 2lb system (instead of current 1/2lb). This means that each gas appliance in the house will get it's own regulator, and that I will need to install a new meter, etc.

I'm not an expert on Nat gas delivery by any means but will share a few thoughts on what I learned going thru a similar situation. We bought a house in the country that formerly had natural gas but the steel line was condemed because of leaks. The line ran under a railroad track so we were not able to install a new line under the tracks. We ran a smaller plastic line thru the old pipe section and then stepped up to a larger size and installed new line to the house. In order to serve all my needs (500,000 BTU+) the gas company is going to run a 10psi line to my house and shop in order to get enough flow thru the smaller line. The house will have its own regulator as well as the shop. I might add that this line is coming directly off of an 8" mainline.

As for your situation, a couple of questions:

Have you talked to your gas company and are they recommending the 2# system?

If so, are they recommending that you step up the pressure to your house thru the regulator to 2# and then regulate each appliance? Or are they saying that they can provide you a higher pressure before the meter in order to deliver you more gas volume.


Cheers
Steve

 

[ishiboo]

I don't see why you couldn't regulate the input to the house down with a "whole-house" regulator, and then run the 2lb right to the shop... versus adding a regulator to every appliance.

 

[ForceFed70]

I don't see why you couldn't regulate the input to the house down with a "whole-house" regulator, and then run the 2lb right to the shop... versus adding a regulator to every appliance.

Good point! I would still need to replace the meter tho.

I have estimated that I need approximately 250,000BTU (gas unit heater, water tank, and BBQ).

According to the cart on this website: http://www.propane-generators.com/natural-gas-chart.htm
1 1/4" line will allow for up to 278,000 BTU over a 200' run.

So now I guess it's a matter of seeing which is more expensive, paying for the larger line (vs a 3/4" line) or swapping to a 2lb system.

My gut feeling is that running 1 1/4" line will be the cheaper option.

 

[bochnak]

I used this calculator for sizing my ~130' run:

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/natural-gas-pipe-calculator-d_1042.html

Worked great!

I forget where I found PE dims, but here are some for steel:

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/natural-gas-pipe-sizing-d_826.html

 

[HoosierBuddy]

I would recommend a couple of things:

1. Determine your total connected load with the new equipment + your old equipment and (if this number is higher than about 275,000 BTU/Hour) contact your gas company and advise them as to the load. They may need to install a larger gas meter.

2. At that time, ask them if there are any charges to switch your meter's regulator (WHICH IS ON THE INPUT SIDE OF THE METER BY THE WAY...NOT AFTER THE METER) to a 2psi unit AND install a correcting index on the meter to compensate for the additional pressure.

3. If faced with the same situation, I would be hard pressed to ever seriously consider switching to 2 psi on the whole house. The only reason to do so would be to compensate for a too-small line running to the garage. The material cost is almost insignificant in these types of projects compared to the labor cost, so there is little advantage in putting in a smaller line. 1 1/4" PE with anodeless service risers tied into the piping downstream of a new 415 meter (with a valve installed for emergency shut off on that line) would be a good way to go.

4. Don't forget to call 811 before you dig. Free and requried by law.

Phil

p.s. The guy with 10 PSI to your house...You regulate that OUTSIDE right? You aren't saying you're taking 10PSI in the house right? Because NFPA 54 says that you'd have to use welded pipe to go above 5 PSI...and I'm sure the US national fuel code applies to Nebraska too.

 

[stingry]

p.s. The guy with 10 PSI to your house...You regulate that OUTSIDE right? You aren't saying you're taking 10PSI in the house right? Because NFPA 54 says that you'd have to use welded pipe to go above 5 PSI...and I'm sure the US national fuel code applies to Nebraska too.

Oh no! 10# to the house regulator and the shop regulator. They are going to the higher line pressure to allow smaller buried line and to compensate for the smaller section under the raolroad tracks.

Cheers
Steve

 

[tool whore]

I'm in NC on the east coast. Here I have worked at a gas company (GIS) and also worked many years as a pipe fitter. I am by no means an expert, just a little background.

Here, I have never seen anything smaller than 2# systems. Every house is 2#. We dont do alot of calculations, we just sling meters and roll. Every once in a while we change out regulators and lately with DIMP, we have been utilizing the RF meters for easy reading.

Every appliance should be regulated. A stove should have a regulator. A furnace, of course and small room heaters should also have one. I see all the time that people hook straight to the line and cook dinner. Never count on the regulator at the meter to control flow, especially if you know you have a long run. Sometimes a meter is just outside the kitchen and other times the line will run 100' just around a large crawl space. The distance wont really make a huge difference in flow loss on a .5# system unless it is used for something more than a house. A 2# meter/reg sounds like a great upgrade. I wonder how old the meter you have is? If you upgrade the pipe but not the flow you will only increase the volume initially. You can calculate that and do the math on the furnace and figure how long it would run until it ran short of fuel. It is common to sleeve HDPE inside of an old steel pipe. It is the way to go in many cases (RR tracks!) and others. Some areas the house owns the meter and others the gas co does. If you dont own yours, call them and switch it for free generally and run your lines as normal.

Other than a cost if you do own yours, I cant see any other drawbacks. Perhaps, you dont use regulators now because of the system you have>>?? You should do that as a safety feature, regardless. Your regulator could give out at any time and the flow could max out. That doesnt mean an explosion, but the risks are there. Regulators are cheap and not that hard to install in most cases. This is the best way to get everything you need, allow for future expansion and keep you safe. HTH

 

[59 wagon man]

you also have to factor in the number of fittings for the total devoleped length of pipe

 

[ajcwood]

I am a new natural gas customer having just had a gas line run to our house and a 2# meter is what they recommended as well with what I plan to use gas for, which is remarkably like your situation. I too have about a 180' run to have gas in my garage, and had it explained to me that it is what I needed to keep from having too little gas flow to run the appliances. A sputtering flow of natural gas would cause pilot lights to go out or burners to cut off and you then have trouble when the flow resumes. It is not a chance I would take to keep the 1/2# set up. Of course I am still waiting on my plumber to run the lines in the house to get the meter set and get things operational.

 

[littletoes]

I sling da' math.....

Tell me.....why couldn't you install a 7" wc reg AT the house, for the "in=house" piping, so as to NOT make any changes, leave the reg outside, run a new underground pipe to the garage......JUST TO SAVE THE COST OF THE LARGER PIPE.

10 lbs at the beginning, Y not at the end??? PRESSURE LOSS.

You see, the existing pressure in your home sounds to be around 7" wc after the gas departments regulator...what is it before??? WHO KNOWS! Could be 54 psi, could be 400 psi, only they know, most likely its not above 120 psi.

What else do you need to know? Well, the gas guy above should tell you that depending upon the age of your existing meter, and if it IS a bellows type, it may only be good for 275,000 btu's, if its newer, it is DESIGNED for 300,000 btu's, but can be stretched to 330,000 btu's.
SO! If you have a need of more btu's than that, you will have to contact your gas company and ask for a bigger meter installation/upgrade. Hopefully they do it for free.

OK, back to the beginning; You CAN leave your gas supply at 7" of wc, but you may just need to run something like 2" steel pipe to the shop. Sure it can be screwed, but IT WILL have to be factory coated with an exterior coating made for underground use. Its just a yellow plastic coating, most likely PE, with a tar-like coating under that to help prevent corrosion.

 

[littletoes]

For most areas, the code requires a minimum burial depth. Usually around 12 to 18 inches. Joints must be left open until inspected. Pressure test must meet local requirements. Then painted with the "tar" stuff, wrapped in 40 mil tape, then buried.

Oh, and yes you can run 2 lb gas in a house, it just means you can run smaller pipe. 3/8" CSS for example. Many codes allow the use of copper pipe also, but it must be of a certain purity. Cu pipe must be silver soldered, etc.

If you gave me the dimensions, I could easily do the math, its cake. I can also do it for 2 lb. gas supply.

RedSky-the pressure loss for a 7"wc gas system is 0.5

I should mention, I've ran quite a lot of 5" and 6" steel pipe inside buildings at 7" of wc just to ensure existing boilers had enough volume.
The local gas companies have contracts with building owners, and THIS is why gas pressures stay the way they are. Yep, contracts can be changed.

And NO every appliance DOES NOT have to be regulated, UNLESS pressures inside the building must be bumped up due to sizing issues. Your house sizing is fine, leave the reg outside if pressures are boosted.

Hope this helps!

 

[redsky49]

[QUOTE.....
RedSky-the pressure loss for a 7"wc gas system is 0.5
.....
And NO every appliance DOES NOT have to be regulated, UNLESS pressures inside the building must be bumped up due to sizing issues. Your house sizing is fine, leave the reg outside if pressures are boosted.

Hope this helps![/QUOTE]

As to the design pressure loss of any piping system, this might be a west coast/east coast thing, or personal preference, or even a job-specific issue.

Natural gas piping sizes are determined by:
1. Total gas consumption
2. Total piping pressure drop (length of pipe and number of fittings)
3. Allowable pressure drop from meter to appliance
4. Specific gravity of the gas (typically 0.6)

For a residential system of modest requirements and short pipe runs, you could theoretically use up to 1.0" of total pressure drop. It all depends on the particular application. In every case however, the system should be designed and installed to ensure the correct delivered gas pressure at each and every appliance - especially the furthest device from the meter. As a rule, I have always used 0.3" pressure drop as this allows some safety factor to account for any surprises in the field. This is also a standard design criteria used by a number of large eastern metropolitan areas. Check local requirements. The maximum allowable pressure drop in gas piping systems is 0.5". [See NFPA/IAS National Fuel Gas Code] This is for any low pressure, i.e., 7" system.

For higher pressure systems such as 2, 5, or 10 psi (primarily industrial or commercial applications), an allowable pressure drop of 10% initial pressure is used, thus allowing use of much smaller piping. In these applications pressure regulators must be specified to accommodate the higher inlet pressure.

All current gas-fired appliances will have a data plate indicating the required flow rate of gas - cubic feet (or sometimes just the btuh number), as well as the minimum inlet pressure. Typical minimum inlet pressures generally run between 4 and 6 inches for most, if not all, residential gas appliances.

The utility company can provide the entering inlet pressure at the meter, as well as the maximum flow rate of the meter.

All gas appliances must be regulated. Verify venting requirements for all gas regulators.

Bury requirements for gas piping is subject to local codes and regulations and should be confirmed with the utility prior to installation.

More complete information on gas piping can be found in the Gas Engineers Handbook, (1970)

If in doubt, consult an expert, and always call Miss Utility prior to excavation.

Be safe.

As always, offered only as opinion

 

[wrhgwd]

I I do not under stand. They can save on pipe and all just put a 2lb poung regulator at the meter and put a 2lbs meter. Worked in natural 23 years

 

[wrhgwd]

I plan to bring natural gas from my house to the shop. However, it will be a 180' run.

I've been told that I will need to switch to a 2lb system (instead of current 1/2lb). This means that each gas appliance in the house will get it's own regulator, and that I will need to install a new meter, etc.

Does this sound right to you guys? I would prefer not to do this and will buy a larger gas line if required.

Yes have them to put 2lbs regular at meter and a meter for 2lbs and it will save on labor pipe size and just one regular. PS work in natural Gas Piping for 22 years

 

[wrhgwd]

I not sure about your system at our system we run 25lbs to reg at meter it cut to 1/4 pound I have to no all details. If you got 25lbs coming from road you can put a 2lbs reg at meter have meter set up for 2lbs and that saves on labor and pipe size.

 

[JRC3]

I have estimated that I need approximately 250,000BTU (gas unit heater, water tank, and BBQ).

I'm guessing this is what you need to run your garage/shop only and by "water tank" do you mean water heater? If so and you have the extra service to the shop, would it be worth switching the shop water heater to electric to save 30-40k BTUs. Maybe it will give you more choice or be a little less expensive to run your NG. Just a thought.

 

[CNGsaves]

People . . . or should I say Troll to the max . . .
. . . .
. . . . . . This thread is OVER . . . 4 YEARS OLD !!!!!

 

[JRC3]

I've been lurking quite a few threads and I just saw it pop up under the "new threads" and it was short like a new thread, so I didn't even look at the dates. *facepalm*