PSA/ Rant/ singing the blues, and taking personal responsibility.

[RivennHewn]

Ode to the professionalism of contractors and public utilities.

A couple years ago, we decided to go green, and switch out the gas furnace for a heat pump and air handler with electric back up heat.

Then, the electric provider sent a mega surge down my street. Less that two months after install, I was ordering new units.

If you can believe this, the electrical provider did an internal audit and determined they were not at fault. Apparently “Nature” put a tree on our power lines. Nature then went on to not only remove the tree, but went ahead and restored the power(when the surge happened)

But that’s just how things with the mob. Money only flows one way.

Said and done, we were out just over 7K.


Then, we had our solar system installed.

Less than a month, and my favorite electric provider sends another surge down my street.

Smoked the circuit control board in my solar system and 16 of the micro inverters.

Still waiting on the bill for that work.

I’m guessing the electric provider will do another internal audit, and I’m guessing I know the determination that will follow.

The big take away?

Do your homework. Don’t rely on the professionalism of subs, and don’t expect it from public utilities (AKArganized crime)

Neither my mechanical sub, electrician, or solar contractor adequately addressed surge protection.

There are 70+ homes on my street. Some are well over $25,000 out the window.

All I want is my money, and my gas furnace back.

And yes, I am responsible for not specifying parts and details.

I say that I’m solely responsible, because I’m solely footing the bill(s)

 

[PCustoms]

Not sure what a PoCo surge has to do with subcontractors....

Have you contacted the states PUC?

 

[mm08822]

Time to be pro-active.
Buy whole house surge protection and the same for point of use loads - furnace, ac, solar.....Those units come with protection warranties, but i dont know of anyone who may have needed to try and collect.

 

[RivennHewn]

Not sure what a PoCo surge has to do with subcontractors....

Have you contacted the states PUC?

It was my contractors who failed to include surge protection


And yes, we have contacted / filed a claim with the power company

 

[RivennHewn]

Time to be pro-active.
Buy whole house surge protection and the same for point of use loads - furnace, ac, solar.....Those units come with protection warranties, but i dont know of anyone who may have needed to try and collect.

Surge protection has been added, after the fact.

 

[bugnut]

That ***** big time!

 

[danski0224]

Pretty sure that 99% of the general public wouldn't know to ask for surge protection.

I believe that the current NEC requires surge protection in the panel box (residential), but surge protection in the panel wouldn't protect the solar inverters, and the general public wouldn't know that, either.

I install surge protection at the new HVAC equipment. The devices are a little over 200 bucks alone.

 

[larry4406]

It was my contractors who failed to include surge protection

Did you include installation of surge protection devices in the contractor's scope of work? If you did, then they were indeed negligent for not installing it. If not, well then its not a failure by the contractors. Yes it would have been nice for them to suggest to you that it be installed for an added fee.

Sorry for your $$$ losses.

After the 2nd event at our house of power surges from utility storm damage taking out our septic system controls, I added SPD's at the main panel, at the septic sub panel, and at the outdoor AC unit.

 

[danski0224]

File a homeowners insurance claim.

 

[PCustoms]

And yes, we have contacted / filed a claim with the power company

The PoCo or PUC?

 

[larry4406]

File a homeowners insurance claim.

Our insurance carrier reimbursed us for the first fried septic controller. It was $3695.

I didn't bother with a claim at the second event as it was only $700 to replace the fried floats and we have a $500 deductible.

 

[mm08822]

Pretty sure that 99% of the general public wouldn't know to ask for surge protection.

I believe that the current NEC requires surge protection in the panel box (residential), but surge protection in the panel wouldn't protect the solar inverters, and the general public wouldn't know that, either.

I install surge protection at the new HVAC equipment. The devices are a little over 200 bucks alone.

Usually, they quickly learn once hit.

The problem with installed surge protection is, no one knows when it has done its job and keeps on ticking vs. just something being there doing/done nothing. Unless all of the neighbors got hit/lost items and you didn't lose anything.

Getting blown off the wall is also a good sign it was fighting for ya.

 

[danski0224]

The problem with installed surge protection is, no one knows when it has done its job and keeps on ticking vs. just something being there doing/done nothing.

There's a green indicator on the stuff I'm familiar with.

No indicator = bad. Customer has to look at it once in a while.

 

[pcmeiners]

The main issue with surge protection is you really need a very expensive unit to protect against high power surges and lightning, few are willing to pay for it. I have one at the breaker box, original it cost approximately $2500.00 ( purchased on Ebay for roughly $100), even with that I have no guarantees a surge or lightning will not damage devices in my home/shop.

A decent quality surge protector...........

Pardon Our Interruption...

"The problem with installed surge protection is, no one knows when it has done its job and keeps on ticking vs. just something being there doing/done nothing."

The more expensive units have alarm triggering circuits.

"Getting blown off the wall is also a good sign it was fighting for ya."

Had one client with an ungrounded tall flagpole on the roof which attracted lightning, they had 2 lightning bolts (that I know of) go through the wood ceiling. One hit the main server, fried a couple add-in boards and an external switch but the server still worked will black soot surrounding it. The other hit went through the ceiling, hit a radio transmitter, caused a small fire. A radio dispatcher was about 8 feet from the lightening bolt when it happened.

 

[mm08822]

There's a green indicator on the stuff I'm familiar with.

No indicator = bad. Customer has to look at it once in a while.

Me too. But, that does not necessarily change perception/skepticism for some.

 

[RivennHewn]

The PoCo or PUC?

Both

 

[RivennHewn]

Interestingly enough, now we are getting notices of upcoming work that was “previously scheduled” but it’s the first we are hearing of it.

Seems like they want to perform work that should have been done years ago.

Also seems to me like the admission of fault that isn’t coming.

 

[finn]

Ode to the professionalism of contractors and public utilities.

A couple years ago, we decided to go green, and switch out the gas furnace for a heat pump and air handler with electric back up heat.

Then, the electric provider sent a mega surge down my street. Less that two months after install, I was ordering new units.

If you can believe this, the electrical provider did an internal audit and determined they were not at fault. Apparently “Nature” put a tree on our power lines. Nature then went on to not only remove the tree, but went ahead and restored the power(when the surge happened)

But that’s just how things with the mob. Money only flows one way.

Said and done, we were out just over 7K.


Then, we had our solar system installed.

Less than a month, and my favorite electric provider sends another surge down my street.

Smoked the circuit control board in my solar system and 16 of the micro inverters.

Still waiting on the bill for that work.

I’m guessing the electric provider will do another internal audit, and I’m guessing I know the determination that will follow.

The big take away?

Do your homework. Don’t rely on the professionalism of subs, and don’t expect it from public utilities (AKArganized crime)

Neither my mechanical sub, electrician, or solar contractor adequately addressed surge protection.

There are 70+ homes on my street. Some are well over $25,000 out the window.

All I want is my money, and my gas furnace back.

And yes, I am responsible for not specifying parts and details.

I say that I’m solely responsible, because I’m solely footing the bill(s)

Your homeowners insurance should have covered the damage. (As previously posted)

 

[RivennHewn]

Your homeowners insurance should have covered the damage. (As previously posted)

They did, the first time.

I risk losing coverage with a second claim.

 

[rattle_snake]

Hmmm. Sorry to hear that.

I'd say the HVAC and solar equipment 'should' be able to handle a REALLY LARGE voltage surge. Especially the microinverters, they don't take grid energy they provide it.

Harder to make an effective whole house surge protector. Well known how to do at individual circuit board level.

 

[danski0224]

There are 70+ homes on my street. Some are well over $25,000 out the window.

Class action suit?

 

[PCustoms]

Class action suit?

Lawyers get $1.5M, Everyone else gets $3500

 

[PoorUB]

Lawyers get $1.5M, Everyone else gets $3500

More like $3.50!

 

[aggie113]

Switch solar over to a battery backup version, toss in gas generator and maybe some more panels and just go virtually off grid. Hell, you can get something like a EG4 Gridboss, connect your microinverters to it as AC input and use a Chargeverter to feed into the Generator port and hook that Chargeverter to your actual grid if needed.

 

[HoosierBuddy]

If this is an investor owned utility, you can file a complaint with your state's Public Utility Commission.

In my state, that complaint would end up with the Office of the Consumer Councillor who can force the utility to follow the rules and pay for any costs related to not following the rules.

Also...IN MY OPINION....your move to go total electric in a desire to be "Green" ignores the fact that most power in the US (not your solar of course!) is produced by the burning of fossil fuels, and as the grid itself is on the order of 2/3 inefficient, any power you take off the grid produces over twice as much carbon emissions as your natural gas furnace did on a straight power to power comparison. Your heat pump flips the script on this as it runs at a COP above 2.0 (I'm sure)....but if you're running electrical resistance heat strips for backup and that energy is coming off the grid....you're causing more CO2 to go into the atmosphere than you would if you relied on propane or NG high efficiency furnace for that "emergency" heat. Basically anything that has electric resistance heating elements is what I'm speaking to.

With all the trouble you're having it would be cool to look into going Solar with battery backup, unplug from the grid, use gas for backup and use that same source to fuel a generator for times when your solar system can't keep up. Maybe go with a liquid cooled generator and circulate the coolant into a heat exchanger in your air handler. Probably a bridge-too-far...but kind of fun to think about.

 

[dcg9381]

There are 70+ homes on my street. Some are well over $25,000 out the window.

I'd be discussing this with some neighbors. That's enough money to get an attorney interested and more than enough plaintiffs. It should also get your insurance company interested if they've paid out on the first loss.

What I don't know is what, if any, liability utility companies have for this stuff.

Must have been one hell of a surge to knock all that out.. Twice...

Any chance your solar system logged the surge?

 

[RivennHewn]

I'd be discussing this with some neighbors. That's enough money to get an attorney interested and more than enough plaintiffs. It should also get your insurance company interested if they've paid out on the first loss.

What I don't know is what, if any, liability utility companies have for this stuff.

Must have been one hell of a surge to knock all that out.. Twice...

Any chance your solar system logged the surge?

We are collecting quotes/receipts, and have legal council.

The circuit board that controls the solar system & associated app fried . Any data was “permanently erased “

 

[danski0224]

Any data was “permanently erased “

Sure about that?

Just because an app can't access the system doesn't mean that there isn't the possibility that there is something stored on the board somewhere.

 

[RivennHewn]

Sure about that?

Just because an app can't access the system doesn't mean that there isn't the possibility that there is something stored on the board somewhere.

The board that was fried, replaced, and disposed of?

 

[Codyboy]

Then, the electric provider sent a mega surge down my street. Less that two months after install, I was ordering new units.

Not sure what a mega surge is or even a surge from the POCO is.
Was it a surge or are you talking about the "off, on , off, on , off on, " which is not a "surge" but is the cycling of the breaker at the substation when there is a fault on the system. It's by design to protect the system.
I see no way the POCO is increasing voltage on the line briefly which would be a surge.

If you can believe this, the electrical provider did an internal audit and determined they were not at fault. Apparently “Nature” put a tree on our power lines. Nature then went on to not only remove the tree, but went ahead and restored the power(when the surge happened)

Faults on the line will sometimes clear themselves and sounds like that it possibly did in this case.
Tree falls on line, substation breaker starts it's cycle, off, on, off, on etc... this not only protects the lines(system) but will also aid in clearing the fault. I don't know if you've ever witnessed a fault on the line but it is very violent. Big fireballs and the lines jumping and moving about in a violent fashion will sometimes be enough to shake loose anything laying on the line .
Tree is only hung up enough to be detected by the substation and continues to fall and clears itself from the line.
So when no fault is detected ,yes the power is miraculously restored. Again all by design.

But that’s just how things with the mob. Money only flows one way.

Said and done, we were out just over 7K.


Then, we had our solar system installed.

Less than a month, and my favorite electric provider sends another surge down my street.

Smoked the circuit control board in my solar system and 16 of the micro inverters.

Still waiting on the bill for that work.

I’m guessing the electric provider will do another internal audit, and I’m guessing I know the determination that will follow.

The big take away?

Do your homework. Don’t rely on the professionalism of subs, and don’t expect it from public utilities (AKArganized crime)

Neither my mechanical sub, electrician, or solar contractor adequately addressed surge protection.

There are 70+ homes on my street. Some are well over $25,000 out the window.

All I want is my money, and my gas furnace back.

And yes, I am responsible for not specifying parts and details.

I say that I’m solely responsible, because I’m solely footing the bill(s)

 

[Codyboy]

The board that was fried, replaced, and disposed of?

Always keep the evidence.

 

[finn]

If this is an investor owned utility, you can file a complaint with your state's Public Utility Commission.

In my state, that complaint would end up with the Office of the Consumer Councillor who can force the utility to follow the rules and pay for any costs related to not following the rules.

Also...IN MY OPINION....your move to go total electric in a desire to be "Green" ignores the fact that most power in the US (not your solar of course!) is produced by the burning of fossil fuels, and as the grid itself is on the order of 2/3 inefficient, any power you take off the grid produces over twice as much carbon emissions as your natural gas furnace did on a straight power to power comparison. Your heat pump flips the script on this as it runs at a COP above 2.0 (I'm sure)....but if you're running electrical resistance heat strips for backup and that energy is coming off the grid....you're causing more CO2 to go into the atmosphere than you would if you relied on propane or NG high efficiency furnace for that "emergency" heat. Basically anything that has electric resistance heating elements is what I'm speaking to.

With all the trouble you're having it would be cool to look into going Solar with battery backup, unplug from the grid, use gas for backup and use that same source to fuel a generator for times when your solar system can't keep up. Maybe go with a liquid cooled generator and circulate the coolant into a heat exchanger in your air handler. Probably a bridge-too-far...but kind of fun to think about.

Our local electric generation is over 50% renewable, and that’s not uncommon.

Globally, 30% is renewable, and growing rapidly. The US as a whole is a technological laggard, at only 21-24%.

 

[RivennHewn]

Not sure what a mega surge is or even a surge from the POCO is.

Their term, not mine.

I guess you don’t have any surge protectors.

Normally, electric power is controlled/metered.

A surge is when significantly more electricity comes down the line and fries switches, outlets, breakers, refrigerators, computers, furnaces, solar systems, hot tubs, septic pumps, dishwashers, TVs, battery chargers, and any number of misc electronic equipment, including surge protectors.

Some homeowners are completely F’d, as their insurance claims stated “electrical fire” and another claim will get them cancelled with little chance of finding another company that will cover them.

 

[Codyboy]

Their term, not mine.

Their? POCO?

I guess you don’t have any surge protectors.

Correct. IMO they're useless.
Lightning arresters would be useful.

Normally, electric power is controlled/metered.

A surge is when significantly more electricity comes down the line and fries switches, outlets, breakers, refrigerators, computers, furnaces, solar systems, hot tubs, septic pumps, dishwashers, TVs, battery chargers, and any number of misc electronic equipment, including surge protectors.

I know what most people call the cycling of a substation breaker is a surge. It's not.
There is no such thing as receiving "significantly more" electricity from the power lines unless its from lightning.
The generator at the plant will always generate at a certain voltage and frequency(60hz) Its then stepped up and transmitted to the substation where it is then stepped down and distributed. Then it is further stepped down (120/240) before it goes to the customers house.
How can the voltage "increase"?

Some homeowners are completely F’d, as their insurance claims stated “electrical fire” and another claim will get them cancelled with little chance of finding another company that will cover them.

 

[Denwood]

Just putting this out there for the pros to discuss, but Generlink advertises 75kA of surge for their Generlink Surge Protected Product. This is a generator transfer switch at the meter base.

40A Surge 14-50 - 20 Cord | GenerLink Canada

GenerLink 40A Surge 14-50 - 20 Cord offers 75kA surge protection, a 20-foot cord, and supports up to 9,600W. Free shipping across Canada!

generlinkcanada.ca

Would this be capable of protecting a whole home with solar etc, at least to the extent that it is capable? In a lightning strike that is very close (or direct hit) to a home, I suspect all bets are off. I've been through this and some of my surge bars were burnt up (but protected what was plugged in) and others were fine. I seem to recall that a few of the cheap surge bars were literally burnt at the switch, but my more expensive APC surge bars were fine.

 

[BurtEggley]

maybe lightning brought the tree down, or someone close by turned on a non-inverter style generator before disconnecting the main from the grid. Not everyone hooks theirs up per code. SPD's are required in residential units now by the NEC on anything that requires major electrical panel work. We added one a couple years ago - almost everything now has electronic modules in it, washer, dryer, refrigerator, computers, shop tools, big screen and home theatre, garage door opener, etc.. The list is almost endless. The cost to repair the damage is just too great, as many learn too late.

 

[RivennHewn]

I learned too late.

16 micro inverters ended up costing me +/- $4K.

But, none of them are reporting on the app, and I’m producing 1/2 of what my neighbor is(same number of panels) not sure what the problem is, or how much it’s gonna cost me. Solar company hasn’t returned my calls for over a week.

Makes me think it’s bad news.

 

[BurtEggley]

lot of the solar companies here no longer returns calls either, neither do their banks. We have friends who are in litigation now trying to get solar removed and contracts cancelled. The warranties etc., are not being honored because the companies are bankrupt or just disappeared.

 

[American Locomotive]

I'd probably be installing a permanent logging multimeter at this point. I find it crazy that non-storm "surges" are happening like that and blowing out all of your equipment

lot of the solar companies here no longer returns calls either, neither do their banks. We have friends who are in litigation now trying to get solar removed and contracts cancelled. The warranties etc., are not being honored because the companies are bankrupt or just disappeared.

It's a real shame that American greed has probably set solar back 10 years in this country. We're one of the most expensive countries in the world to have solar installed these days because of all these fly-by-night scam companies looking to get those sweet federal incentives.

 

[whateg01]

It's a real shame that American greed has probably set solar back 10 years in this country. We're one of the most expensive countries in the world to have solar installed these days because of all these fly-by-night scam companies looking to get those sweet federal incentives.

I don't know if it's still as much of an issue in other parts of the country or not. I think it has gotten better here but I don't follow it closely. At one time poco went out of their way to penalize people who tried to use solar or other means of being less reliant on them.