Main bedroom addition

[dave*99]

Agree with mix. We like the t&g ceiling and avoids taping overhead. And wood floors. I think one has to be careful in mixing in other types of wood on walls even if painted. And we love the bullnose corners in studio with just drywall returns in thick walls.

 

[billconner]

Again, for the diy aspect the block or icf is the way to go. ICF does require bracing for the pour but at your height that shouldn't be a big deal either. The only part I struggle with ICF is how best to treat the exterior finish. My friend did his whole house icf and basically just "stucco'd" the foundation above grade and its holding up fine but thats really my only concern with icf but nowdays its also getting to be pretty commom to have exterior foam on foundations as well and they are making that work too.

I don't think the detail for the no concrete slab would be any different for a shallow frost protected foundation? Here is your link though, you aren't the first. No concrete slab shallow frost protected

The ICF makes sense especially if it works as footing and stem wall. I think I like the wood stopping inside exterior wall because it would allow walls and roof to go up before having to put floor down. Harder to build walls on stone but assures foam and all is dry and vapor barrier isn't collecting rain. Thinking double stud wall.

With FPSF I probably have foam on exterior to desk with. Leaning towards cement board to protect foam on exterior, maybe lining it up with exterior sheathing on wall. NY amends IRC and permits an R32 walk with R60 ceiling. In think easier than foam in all exterior walls or one of the Zip products with foam.

Struggling with getting R60 blow in all the way to exterior. May do it like It did studio with "soffits" or go back to 2x6 t&g ceiling with a lot of foam on top.

Still got at least 3 months before I can start outside here.

 

[duneslider]

We can't use the Zip-R here but it looks like a nice product to use.

I see cement board used pretty often on ICF foundations, seems to be a pretty good way to do it.

 

[mike93lx]

We can't use the Zip-R here

Why?

 

[duneslider]

Why?

No way to secure it to the building and reach seismic. You would have to sheath the building first and then put the zip-r over that and that makes zero sense, just not really a way to affordably use it here due to the seismic bracing concerns.

 

[billconner]

Again, for the diy aspect the block or icf is the way to go. ICF does require bracing for the pour but at your height that shouldn't be a big deal either. The only part I struggle with ICF is how best to treat the exterior finish. My friend did his whole house icf and basically just "stucco'd" the foundation above grade and its holding up fine but thats really my only concern with icf but nowdays its also getting to be pretty commom to have exterior foam on foundations as well and they are making that work too.

I don't think the detail for the no concrete slab would be any different for a shallow frost protected foundation? Here is your link though, you aren't the first. No concrete slab shallow frost protected

Studying this. Would like to eliminate wider footing. Just screed gravel, lay down foam - under and frost wing, stack 12" core IVF probably 2 high, and pour.

If I could quite figure out how to do on course 12" and a second course 4 or 6" I would.

Or maybe dry lay 12" lintel block on foam on screeded gravel, 2 courses of 6", surface bond and grout, and then add 2" EPS. Basically same but ICF simpler I believe.

 

[duneslider]

I don't think

Studying this. Would like to eliminate wider footing. Just screed gravel, lay down foam - under and frost wing, stack 12" core IVF probably 2 high, and pour.

If I could quite figure out how to do on course 12" and a second course 4 or 6" I would.

Or maybe dry lay 12" lintel block on foam on screeded gravel, 2 courses of 6", surface bond and grout, and then add 2" EPS. Basically same but ICF simpler I believe.

I don't think you can have the foam under the ICF? I suspect you could find a way to make it work with the icf directly on compacted gravel but I don't think that would be a diy engineering thing, you would need an engineer to put the details together.

 

[billconner]

I don't think

I don't think you can have the foam under the ICF? I suspect you could find a way to make it work with the icf directly on compacted gravel but I don't think that would be a diy engineering thing, you would need an engineer to put the details together.

The GBA detail you linked has foam under. I've seen it on other FPSF details as well.

I might get ICF manufacturer to help with an engineered detail. And I got away with a diy engineered rubble trench foundation on another project. Rural NY is not like anyplace in CA when it comes to code enforcement.

And I did find ICF monolithic pours. That's my goal - one pour - all fully insulated.

If I have to do or end up doing a separate poured footer, wrapped in foam, I'll do the dry stack and surface bonded blocks. Probably just 2 courses.

 

[duneslider]

The GBA detail you linked has foam under. I've seen it on other FPSF details as well.

I might get ICF manufacturer to help with an engineered detail. And I got away with a diy engineered rubble trench foundation on another project. Rural NY is not like anyplace in CA when it comes to code enforcement.

And I did find ICF monolithic pours. That's my goal - one pour - all fully insulated.

If I have to do or end up doing a separate poured footer, wrapped in foam, I'll do the dry stack and surface bonded blocks. Probably just 2 courses.

I didn't catch they had the foam under it. Super interesting. Looks like it shouldn't be a huge deal to make it happen then!

 

[billconner]

At 25 psi (and I think it can be had up to 60) that's 3600 psf and I'm using code to say my soul is good for 2000, so not a deal.

 

[Mike65]

I missed that this was about existing stair and was confused why a new build/reno would be a problem.

I'm well away from advanced age and would love a single story house. Screw stairs

I am with you Mike, my wife & I hate them. When we were looking for our "retirement home" here in SW Va. we did not want a home with a second floor. We bought a ranch home with a basement. The only stairs are to the basement & if our knees get so bad we just do not use the basement but this way with a ranch home all the living space is on one floor.

 

[billconner]

Here is the Glavel detail for FPSF. I am trying to decide if I can form the turned down edge with ICFs, just sitting on compacted Glavel.

 

[billconner]

I've been studying concrete free slabs. My goodness there's a lot of info on them.

 

[billconner]

Well getting into the building science/conservation/environment/healthy house/etc., and researching full time - a retirement benefit - I'm looking at a frost protected shallow foundation with concrete free slab, and all weather wood foundation aka permanent wood foundation, using glavel for insulation. Probably will provoke a reaction from the building department.

 

[finn]

I am with you Mike, my wife & I hate them. When we were looking for our "retirement home" here in SW Va. we did not want a home with a second floor. We bought a ranch home with a basement. The only stairs are to the basement & if our knees get so bad we just do not use the basement but this way with a ranch home all the living space is on one floor.

Same here. No basements here in Az, though. I miss the storage, but no stairs was an important consideration when we bought. The only step in the untire house is a couple inches into the garage from the hall and perhaps two or three inches down into the shower .

Do miss the storage space though, but lack of it keeps the hoarder instincts under control.

 

[Bert_]

Well getting into the building science/conservation/environment/healthy house/etc., and researching full time - a retirement benefit - I'm looking at a frost protected shallow foundation with concrete free slab, and all weather wood foundation aka permanent wood foundation, using glavel for insulation. Probably will provoke a reaction from the building department.

We have some wood basements around here. Personally I'm not a fan. Wood in the ground has a definite lifespan. The foundation is the most difficult part of a building to repair. I suppose if you are old enough it will be someone else's problem.

 

[billconner]

We have some wood basements around here. Personally I'm not a fan. Wood in the ground has a definite lifespan. The foundation is the most difficult part of a building to repair. I suppose if you are old enough it will be someone else's problem.

I suggest watching the BS and Beer video on AWWF aka PWF.

It is 90 minutes but so far, these once a month videos
They have been around for almost 100 years. People that live in them report it's the warmest and driest basement they have ever experienced. One house with a AWWF was moved - foundation and all - and is still fine. Of course not to mention concrete's environmental impact.

I'm interested because I want to save money, so solo diy - about half the cost of construction - and I don't think you can solo diy a truck full of concrete. Also it would have to be pumped or buggied. And we want a hardwood floor which means building a wood sub floor on a slab.

Durability? How long do you expect a wood frame house to last? And if you can get CCA treated wood - legally at least possible in NYS for AWWFs - I'm not worried. And some work bring done on materials made of recycled plastic for this.

Most interesting thought from the BS and Beer video was "do you think if builders doesn't as much thought and effort on a concrete foundation as they do on an AWWF, that they would be as warm and dry?" One example was an EDPM "skirt" from foundation wall near grade out about 5 or 6', underground. Made sense.

Finally, to each their own.

 

[dave*99]

I suggest watching the BS and Beer video on AWWF aka PWF.

It is 90 minutes but so far, these once a month videos
They have been around for almost 100 years. People that live in them report it's the warmest and driest basement they have ever experienced. One house with a AWWF was moved - foundation and all - and is still fine. Of course not to mention concrete's environmental impact.

I'm interested because I want to save money, so solo diy - about half the cost of construction - and I don't think you can solo diy a truck full of concrete. Also it would have to be pumped or buggied. And we want a hardwood floor which means building a wood sub floor on a slab.

Durability? How long do you expect a wood frame house to last? And if you can get CCA treated wood - legally at least possible in NYS for AWWFs - I'm not worried. And some work bring done on materials made of recycled plastic for this.

Most interesting thought from the BS and Beer video was "do you think if builders doesn't as much thought and effort on a concrete foundation as they do on an AWWF, that they would be as warm and dry?" One example was an EDPM "skirt" from foundation wall near grade out about 5 or 6', underground. Made sense.

Finally, to each their own.

There was a development in my town where all houses had wood foundations. I never heard anything good or bad about it and I do not know enough about it to form an informed opinion. But I would caution one item; perception.

Will a buyer and his realtor accept this concept? Again, I have no data, just recognize their opinion may influence future resale.

 

[Bert_]

I suggest watching the BS and Beer video on AWWF aka PWF.

It is 90 minutes but so far, these once a month videos
They have been around for almost 100 years. People that live in them report it's the warmest and driest basement they have ever experienced. One house with a AWWF was moved - foundation and all - and is still fine. Of course not to mention concrete's environmental impact.

I'm interested because I want to save money, so solo diy - about half the cost of construction - and I don't think you can solo diy a truck full of concrete. Also it would have to be pumped or buggied. And we want a hardwood floor which means building a wood sub floor on a slab.

Durability? How long do you expect a wood frame house to last? And if you can get CCA treated wood - legally at least possible in NYS for AWWFs - I'm not worried. And some work bring done on materials made of recycled plastic for this.

Most interesting thought from the BS and Beer video was "do you think if builders doesn't as much thought and effort on a concrete foundation as they do on an AWWF, that they would be as warm and dry?" One example was an EDPM "skirt" from foundation wall near grade out about 5 or 6', underground. Made sense.

Finally, to each their own.

I put the video on in the background and just finished listening to it.

I would say the big take away is water. If you can keep it dry, then wood is fine. If you will be fighting ground water like we do around here, then it might be a loosing battle. I would guess 70-80% of houses here have a sump pump and dehumidifier in the basement. There are times that our water table is only 4' down. Maybe you don't have that problem.

I do like the no concrete slab concept. Especially if it's going to be above grade. I would still want the foundation walls to be concrete.

 

[Bert_]

I get wanting to save money. I built storage shed with no concrete. I built wood walls on 4.5" well pipe.

I'm still happy with how it turned out but I'm not convinced it actually saved much money. I could have trenched a footing and just hired some help to pour it.

Clearly that is not a house, point is there's multiple ways to save money.

 

[dscheidt]

We have some wood basements around here. Personally I'm not a fan. Wood in the ground has a definite lifespan. The foundation is the most difficult part of a building to repair. I suppose if you are old enough it will be someone else's problem.

In the mid 80s, my parents built a wood foundation super insulated house — double stud wall, with fiberglass in the stud bays, the space between was 32 inche wide roll, going vertically, and over the edge to the attic, where it was covered by the blown insulation. R40 walls. 80ish ceiling. Full basement, walls were 2x4 studs, with pressure treated plywood sheathing. The place was torn down after 30 years (developer put in a subdivision). Only sign of rot was somewhere I knew had drainage problems my dad would never fix properly.

The whole thing apparently threw the building department for a loop. The plan was for all heating to be from a wood stove, the county or bank required an alternative heating source, so they added electric baseboard heat, most of which was never used. (The basement got cold, I don’t think there was anything under the slab. It stayed cool in summer). That required a 400a service, with a 200a panel dedicated to unused 240 circuits. Actual heat was done with the stove, they ran through about 1.5 cords a year.

 

[billconner]

This is coarse sand on a hill. Also too far north for termites or carpenter ants. No water or drainage issues. Won't have to go far for foundation drains to reach daylight. Keep in mind this is a slab on grade building with FPSF do footing is like 14 to 16" below grade. (Those two together allow me to think about hand digging it.)

I think about the perception issue. First, it meets building code. Second, hard to find failures of AWWF. Third, in my case, how would they know? Rigid foam covered with cement board and parge coat on exterior of slab on grade on small addition versus ICFs on main house covered with parge on exterior and drywall on interior. (Given the impression of home inspectors by this group on the real estate agent thread I wouldn't expect they would know.)

If I contracted for this to be built, pretty sure I the $150,000 range (450+/- sf) around here. I'll build it for less than half that - targeting $50,000. And frankly, if it isn't obvious, I love hands on building (after 40+ years of building design) so at the top of my list of things to do. I'd rather frame and sweat and suffer minor scraped (and loose weight!) than sit on an ocean liner getting fat and losing brain cells to alcohol. Yes, I also like wilderness trips almost as much as building, but not exclusively.

I think about it but I do detest the idea of trying to get a concrete contractor to do it my way on my schedule. And I have thought about ICFs for perimeter stem wall, and having my excavator - who I've used numerous times and really trust to be fair and do good work - use his loader or excavator to carry the mud from street to backyard. But no poured the footing - just set 12" core ICFs on compacted glavel and brace. Or form (and reuse form lumber) and pour 1' wide 32" tall "thickened edge" and pour same way. Both hard solo diy. Those were my first plans until I remembered AWWF and watched that show. (I know all those guys from reading JLC and FHB starting in 70s. They know their stuff.) Even Joseph Lstiburek at BSC is fine with them.

I searched Internet for problems and came up empty. People that live houses on PWF like them and say no problems. Might be bias but lack of anecdotes to the contrary. Found a home insoector site and they talked about proportionately more problems with block by and concrete foundations.

So, perceptions, or mis-preceptions. Not sure it's the reason to spend thousands more and drive me of the fun and satisfaction of doing it.

 

[coldh2o]

Also too far north for termites or carpenter ants.

I'm north of you, have seen lots of damage from carpenter ants. I believe they exist almost everywhere.

 

[billconner]

I'm north of you, have seen lots of damage from carpenter ants. I believe they exist almost everywhere.

Well not termites. I've never seen Carpenter ants in a house but sure they are someplace. They don't seem to be a major problem unlike termites.

 

[billconner]

I've been researching concrete free foundations and sketched my own based on a lot of sources and then found an article in last issue of JLC by a builder who did one. Still researching but am optimistic. This combines a concrete free slab, frost protected shallow foundation, AWWF/PWF, and Glavel aka ultra-lightweight foamed-glass aggregate for insulation.

 

[larry4406]

I have not read this thread, but I did read Post 65 above and clicked on the links.

I personally would not use a buried pressure treated wood foundation. Today's PT wood is not what it used to be. YMMV.

 

[duneslider]

If done right they work. The devil is in the details!

I'm too chicken to attempt it but those who have done it right seem to have good results. I have a hard time convincing myself they will last even though I keep seeing evidence that they work.

 

[billconner]

People that live in homes with PWF consistently say it's the warmest and dryest basement they have ever seen. One house was moved basement and all, and is still in great shape. The likely unavailability of CCA is an issue but details that keep it dry. Lots of aggregate, peel and stick on exterior, good drainage, and the EPDM "skirt" all favor longevity.

 

[billconner]

I'm also looking at the NYS regs and am not convinced CCA treated wood is prohibited for PWF. We'll see how I do with the NY DEC. In don't expect the US EPA to be an issue.

 

[billconner]

I am pretty certain CCA treated wood is available for foundation use. Now whether I can buy the wood and build it or if I have to buy the panels from a fabricator, I don't know yet.

 

[dscheidt]

I am pretty certain CCA treated wood is available for foundation use. Now whether I can buy the wood and build it or if I have to buy the panels from a fabricator, I don't know yet.

Around the Midwest, cca dimensional lumber is available at yards. It’s used for agricultural stuff. I doubt you will have problems getting it, though you might have to order it. It’s more expensive than the newer stuff, but I haven’t checked prices lately. Haven’t seen plywood, but I haven’t been looking either.