Do I need to use a ground/neutral bonding plug on my generator?

[snickers muncher]

I have a floating neutral 120 generator. I do not plan to hook it to my house panel at this time. I was planning on running two 12 gauge extension cords through a window to power my fridge/microwave and my tv/router during the incoming ice storm.

Do I need a grounding plug?
Can I make my own plug by using a regular plug and running a wire to jump the neutral and ground together inside the plug?
Do I have to plug it straight into the generator or can I plug into a surge protector (old UPS with no battery) at the end of one of the extension cords?

The generator in question. https://www.homedepot.com/p/Champio...iet-Technology-and-CO-Shield-201531/333953243

Thanks

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Not code permissive to run cordage thru a window. install the proper inlet.

if your genset is not being hooked up to a house panel then yes you need to bond the neutral otherwise breakers wont trip when there is a ground or line fault.

you can make a bonding plug but make sure its not plugged into a GFCI protected receptacle on the generator. if that isnt possible then install a switch.

i would plug it straight into the generator NOT the extension cord.

 

[snickers muncher]

Thanks for the advise. If I had the time I would have definitely installed an inlet and used the TT30, but I've been trying to get ahead at work and help others prepare for the ice that's coming in a few hours. Through the window it will be for a few hours. The correct procedures will be followed soon.

I would really like to have two cords going to two different rooms. There are only two outlets on the generator. What if I made a bonding plug that fed into a pvc handy box with an outlet that I could then plug into? EDIT I just remember that I do have a female plug and could make a tiny extension cord instead of a handy box contraction.

At first chance I'd like to make a TT30 bonded plug. That way if it's hooked to a house it's not bonded but if used alone it will be bonded. I'd have the tt30 plug attached the the generator somehow with warnings to use/not use.

Thanks.

 

[ripperd]

So I also have a floating neutral generator.

I do have a proper interlocked inlet for the house, so nothing is needed when powering the house.

But we use it with our camper pretty regularly, so I was curious on just how important it was to have a bonding plug in while camping or using it with power tools.

In my research I found that 1) most power tools are double insulated and not grounded, so not often necessary for power tools, and 2) the reason for the bond is to make sure that a low resistance path is avaliable in the event that hot touches ground to so that breakers trip. In a home this is very important, as even if the bond was broken/missing in the panel, neutral and ground are also connected upstream at the poles so if you have a fault to ground and the resistance isnt low enough, you have a shocking hazard between electrical ground and the ground under your feet. In a portable or rv situation this is not the case - there is zero inherit neutral-ground connection. So even if hot touches ground, the skin/frame of the rv would be hot, but only in relation to neutral. With no return path for the voltage/current through the earth under your feet it is not a shock risk if equipment ground is floating in relation to earth ground. GFCI's actually work by comparing the current on neutral and hot and making sure they match- they dont actually directly measure ground current. So a good test to ensure one's config is safely floating neutral would be to use a gfi tester in a gfi outlet and see if the gfi trips. If it doesnt, your ground is floating enough to be safe and you are probably OK without bonding.

I am not an electrician, and the above is only my own conjecture. But I think my theories are supported by the fact that industry and regulators have NOT forced more comprehensive and failsafe methods to ensure there is always single point bonding when using generators. They seem to be fine with the default case of no bond for RV'ers and non house backup users, which realistically are the most frequent uses of portable generators.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

So I also have a floating neutral generator.

I do have a proper interlocked inlet for the house, so nothing is needed when powering the house.

But we use it with our camper pretty regularly, so I was curious on just how important it was to have a bonding plug in while camping or using it with power tools.

very important. the neutral bond is there so breakers can trip upon ground fault. since the genset is being used in this capacity as the sole source of power, it needs to have the neutral bond

In my research I found that 1) most power tools are double insulated and not grounded, so not often necessary for power tools, and 2) the reason for the bond is to make sure that a low resistance path is available in the event that hot touches ground to so that breakers trip. In a home this is very important, as even if the bond was broken/missing in the panel, neutral and ground are also connected upstream at the poles so if you have a fault to ground and the resistance isnt low enough, you have a shocking hazard between electrical ground and the ground under your feet. In a portable or rv situation this is not the case - there is zero inherit neutral-ground connection. So even if hot touches ground, the skin/frame of the rv would be hot, but only in relation to neutral. With no return path for the voltage/current through the earth under your feet it is not a shock risk if equipment ground is floating in relation to earth ground.

This is incorrect. a metal generator laying on the ground can have a return path thru the ground albeit low continuity. but still a shock hazard.

GFCI's actually work by comparing the current on neutral and hot and making sure they match- they dont actually directly measure ground current. So a good test to ensure one's config is safely floating neutral would be to use a gfi tester in a gfi outlet and see if the gfi trips. If it doesnt, your ground is floating enough to be safe and you are probably OK without bonding.

I am not an electrician, and the above is only my own conjecture. But I think my theories are supported by the fact that industry and regulators have NOT forced more comprehensive and failsafe methods to ensure there is always single point bonding when using generators. They seem to be fine with the default case of no bond for RV'ers and non house backup users, which realistically are the most frequent uses of portable generators.

you are correct here but why play with fire? why not just use a bonding plug or install a neutral bonding switch? not hard.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I have a floating neutral 120 generator. I do not plan to hook it to my house panel at this time. I was planning on running two 12 gauge extension cords through a window to power my fridge/microwave and my tv/router during the incoming ice storm.

Not code permissive to run cordage thru a window. install the proper inlet.

"code" does NOT apply during an emergency !

I would make my own bonding plug if I was using extension cords. Only a few things really care if you do not have a bonded neutral. Some furnace DO CARE !

Many (most?) new generators have GFCI built in.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

"code" does NOT apply during an emergency !

ummm not true but ok

 

[PCustoms]

Nvr mind

 

[mm08822]

ummm not true but ok

If we call everything an emergency, I can stop buying code books!

 

[AntonLargiader]

Similar question here. Actually two of them:

1) Question for today: BIL has a new battery bank for his house and is running cables to be able to charge the batteries from a generator. This should not be needed in normal operation (unless a power outage extends multiple days) but he wants to rig this now to charge and balance the new batteries. Pulsar GD400BN TT30 to twist-lock on house, through the foundation to a metal box inside, then wires to the Ecoworthy 60A charger for the batteries. Does the metal box get grounded? And does he use a bonding plug at the generator? At the moment the batteries are not connected to an inverter or anything else.

2) Question for the future: I use (once per year or so) a Samlex 1500W 120VAC inverter on the car to power some plug-in items. What should my grounding setup be? For now I'm not looking to power anything over the house wiring; it's completely independent.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

any metal box or conduit needs to be bonded.

if the generator is not connecting to the house panel then yes the generator neutral needs to be bonded.

 

[JOE.G]

Can the bonding plug be left in the 120 Outlets while the Unit is hooked to the house though the 240?

 

[mm08822]

Can the bonding plug be left in the 120 Outlets while the Unit is hooked to the house though the 240?

It should be removed from the gen entirely when feeding the house as a best practice.

As a very bad bad practice, yes. It would require the gfci that it is plugged in to, to be tripped and not reset. The tripped position (open internal relay) of that gfci would break the bonding circuit created between neutral and ground. Then the next concern will be, when will the next clueless person reset the tripped gfci to plug in their electric umbrella?

 

[Rccrawlerguy]

I'll start with this. I know very little about residential wiring.

Could you have a place set up where you would set generator when using it, and have a ground rod? Would that work?

 

[mm08822]

I'll start with this. I know very little about residential wiring.

Could you have a place set up where you would set generator when using it, and have a ground rod? Would that work?

NO. A ground rod has no function in bonding between neutral and the grounding conductors within a structure.

Secondly, the structure's grounding electrode system would also protect the gen while it is connected.

 

[JOE.G]

Gotcha I was just wondering, I don't have a bonding plug at the moment and I did un-bond the generator as I only use it to power my house , But I was just wondering because there may come a time I may want to use it for something else.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Can the bonding plug be left in the 120 Outlets while the Unit is hooked to the house though the 240?

NO! you only want neutral bonded in one place

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I'll start with this. I know very little about residential wiring.

Could you have a place set up where you would set generator when using it, and have a ground rod? Would that work?

grounding electrodes have absolutely nothing to do with neutral bonding. Checkout the post on grounding electrodes in the Electrical FAQs sticky pinned to the top of the forum

 

[mm08822]

Gotcha I was just wondering, I don't have a bonding plug at the moment and I did un-bond the generator as I only use it to power my house , But I was just wondering because there may come a time I may want to use it for something else.

Something else, meaning while not connected to the house simultaneously needs the jumper plug.

Something else, meaning while connected to the house simultaneously still does not need the jumper plug.

 

[JOE.G]

Thank you for that MM08822 I meant to ask this for clarification, SO while hooked to the house and powering the home I don't need a bonding plug to use one of the outlets on the unit? But if not hooked to the to house I should.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Thank you for that MM08822 I meant to ask this for clarification, SO while hooked to the house and powering the home I don't need a bonding plug to use one of the outlets on the unit? But if not hooked to the to house I should.

correct

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

"code" does NOT apply during an emergency !

I learn something new each day……….. Thanks for enlightening me!

 

[PCustoms]

I learn something new each day……….. Thanks for enlightening me!

Not sure about electrical, but at least for plumbing it doesn't apply on Sunday afternoon either

 

[AntonLargiader]

Under what circumstances is the grounding lug on a genset needed?

if the generator is not connecting to the house panel then yes the generator neutral needs to be bonded.

And grounded? Nothing that's plugged in has an ECG. Isn't one needed to keep the whole system voltage referenced to the surroundings?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Under what circumstances is the grounding lug on a genset needed?

huh? if connected to a house panel the frame of the genset should be connected to the neutral bar in the main panel or ground bar in subpanel.

And grounded? Nothing that's plugged in has an EGC. Isn't one needed to keep the whole system voltage referenced to the surroundings?

not sure what youre trying to say here.

any extension cord or equipment you plug into a genset should have a ground wire and ground pin on the plug.

why would nothing plugged into the genset have an EGC? all my power cords have EGCs

and an EGC has nothing to do with voltage reference to earth if thats what youre referring to. perhaps you mean GEC to an electrode? EGC and GEC are not one in the same

 

[AntonLargiader]

I did get that wrong - even though I was thinking about it! - yes, if nothing connected to the genset is grounded/bonded/connected to a GEC then what? Dude with genset running beer fridge and TV on the back porch during a power outage. I saw something about SDS' over 1000 VA needing a GEC.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The GEC and electrode has nothing to do with clearing fault current. youre mixing up different things

any equipment you plug into a genset should be grounded via an EGC in the extension cord and cord and plug on equipment

that has nothing to do with the GEC that connects to electrodes.

 

[AntonLargiader]

I'm not asking about clearing fault current. None of this was about that.

 

[dave*99]

I did get that wrong - even though I was thinking about it! - yes, if nothing connected to the genset is grounded/bonded/connected to a GEC then what? Dude with genset running beer fridge and TV on the back porch during a power outage. I saw something about SDS' over 1000 VA needing a GEC.

It does bring up an interesting thought:
Take an old neutral bonded generator that does not have a GFCI.
Connect the ground lug on the genny to a ground rod.
Stand on the earth barefoot.
Grab the black wire from a cable plugged into the genny.
You get shocked.

If the genny was isolated from earth, no shock.

I'm not advocating for one method or the other, just thinking through the current paths.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I'm not asking about clearing fault current. None of this was about that.

well you havent made it clear what you are asking about then. because all youve brought up is missing EGCs on equipment

 

[wyliesdiesels]

It does bring up an interesting thought:
Take an old neutral bonded generator that does not have a GFCI.
Connect the ground lug on the genny to a ground rod.
Stand on the earth barefoot.
Grab the black wire from a cable plugged into the genny.
You MAY shocked.

If the genny was isolated from earth, no shock.

I'm not advocating for one method or the other, just thinking through the current paths.

fixed it for you. all depends on the resistance of your skin, resistance of the earth, how far away the genset is to where youre standing, etc....

 

[dave*99]

fixed it for you. all depends on the resistance of your skin, resistance of the earth, how far away the genset is to where youre standing, etc....

And your willingness to grab the black wire.

 

[AntonLargiader]

If the genny was isolated from earth, no shock.

Blast from the past... in a prior life I worked in a battery factory, where we had 50 tanks in series forming battery plates in very dilute sulfuric acid. Basically an enormous 50-cell battery. Floors were always wet. Sometimes a plate would short within the tank and the watchman or whoever else happened through would fix it. You could grab the plate with bare hands, but ONLY ONE person could do that. The power supply was floating and every tank was about 2~3VDC different from its neighbor.

Anyway, yeah, this is more along the lines of what I'm wondering.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

that scenario has nothing to do with a genny and EGCs

that is a specialized plant and im sure had specialized monitoring equipment to prevent shock

 

[AntonLargiader]

It's a giant open battery on the floor. There's no equipment that's going to deactivate it.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

It's a giant open battery on the floor. There's no equipment that's going to deactivate it.

And batteries are DC- direct current. not the same as an AC- alternating current, electrical system

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

I like this video and it is very helpful to understand what you have to do for bonding and grounding.

TIP! Take notes for your application "IF" you are a rookie.