Trading for a lathe...

[tbirkey214]

Hey guys, I had a rather long threat on here about what kind of Lathe I should be looking for maybe a month or two ago, and I know what I want to have in the future and what I'm willing to settle with right now and I got a possible trade going on here's the Scoop...

I got a sunnen mb1650 honing machine at an auction for pretty much nothing, and then have been trying to sell it so I can buy some more tools, and I got a guy that's interested in it and we're trying to work out a trade, he has this craftsman/atlas lathe which doesn't come with all the Tooling in this picture, but it comes with three and four jaw chuck, tailstock, maybe a steady rest and it's looking like it's in pretty decent condition. The problem is I thought these little machines with A LOT of tooling can maybe go up to like 1800, but with the amount of stuff it has on it now I was thinking more like a thousand to 1200, and my honing machine doesn't come with any tooling but they look like they're going for like 2,000 bucks but that's just what's on eBay. What do y'all think? Feel free to ask me questions about the honing machine or any honing machines all I know is that it turns on and it spins.

I'm also curious about this lathe, I know they'll do well on soft materials, but does anybody have any experience on Steel, I'm not saying taking heavy Cuts or anything but is it a total pain in the ***?

 

[cannuck]

Make sure you are getting those 2 steady rests, a follow rest and taper attachment if they are in the tooling in cabinet, Any decent lathe will do just fine with steel, but how well depends on what quality the cutting edges are and how deep you are cutting (rigidity of tool post and cross slide issues).

 

[Farmall450]

I mean, if you're not in the honing machine much I wouldn't worry too much about "taking a loss" in trade value.

 

[WisJim]

I have a similar Craftsman lathe and it does what I want done, but am not trying to do production, rather I'm making small parts and working on models. In your situation I would decide if I want a lathe or the Sunnen machine, and then decide if the lathe is worth the investment that you have in the Sunnen (not what you might get on eBay). And I agree with what cannuck said above.

 

[Cruzan80]

Underneath, I see a steady, a follow rest and a milling attachment at minimum. Which by themselves would be at least $500-750, not counting the rest of the lathe.

Sounds like you don't have a use for the home, and do for the lathe. Don't chase the "forever" machine, get one, make chips and then understand what you need next. That Atlas is the latest version they made before the Clausing merger, and has the 1/2" thick bed ,QCGB standard, clutch on the lead screw, and double belts to the spindle with 8x speeds via belt. Parts are readily available, and if you change your mind later, they sell fairly easily.

A Sunne hone is a specialty piece of equipment. How long do you want to set on it, hoping for the right buyer to get the little hit extra?

 

[tbirkey214]

Make sure you are getting those 2 steady rests, a follow rest and taper attachment if they are in the tooling in cabinet, Any decent lathe will do just fine with steel, but how well depends on what quality the cutting edges are and how deep you are cutting (rigidity of tool post and cross slide issues).

This guy's got two and of course he took a picture of the better one with all the tooling. He said there might be another steady rest but he's not sure, I don't think I should be out over $1,000 without either steady rest or Jacob's truck or live centers9

 

[txvwnut]

I paid $500 for my Sunnen LBA hone and it came with a couple mandrels. In my area that lathe would be priced at $1500 to a $2000, if you are into the hone for cheap and the other guy is willing to do a straight swap I’d go for it if that lathe is in usable shape.

 

[tbirkey214]

I mean, if you're not in the honing machine much I wouldn't worry too much about "taking a loss" in trade value.

I don't know if it's the old brother them or how things work but this thing's been up for like a month with no bites, and then I had this guy message me and now I got eight people asking about it so two weeks ago I would have done it for sure but now I'm like well maybe I consult with the dudes online. But yeah I have no business owning a honing machine

 

[tbirkey214]

I paid $500 for my Sunnen LBA hone and it came with a couple mandrels. In my area that lathe would be priced at $1500 to a $2000, if you are into the hone for cheap and the other guy is willing to do a straight swap I’d go for it if that lathe is in usable shape.

I just moved down here to Texas so I'm kind of trying to figure out what things go for. Out in Tucson I think things were going for a pretty high cuz there's literally nothing out there, but where are you from and what do you think prices on Texas is. It seems like there's everything out here

 

[txvwnut]

I just moved down here to Texas so I'm kind of trying to figure out what things go for. Out in Tucson I think things were going for a pretty high cuz there's literally nothing out there, but where are you from and what do you think prices on Texas is. It seems like there's everything out here

I’m in the Fort Worth area. I was lathe shopping the last couple of years and what I was seeing used lathes being listed for wasn’t much less than a new lathe which was the direction I went.

 

[rsanter]

The lathe alone is $600 to $1200 depending on where you are.
but I see some added pieces unde the machine that have some value.

now those machines are rather limited but for hobby they are fine. Look the ways over as I have see some that have fairly worn ways if they were used hard

 

[tbirkey214]

I’m in the Fort Worth area. I was lathe shopping the last couple of years and what I was seeing used lathes being listed for wasn’t much less than a new lathe which was the direction I went.

The lathe alone is $600 to $1200 depending on where you are.
but I see some added pieces unde the machine that have some value.

now those machines are rather limited but for hobby they are fine. Look the ways over as I have see some that have fairly worn ways if they were used hard

I said in my post, this is his other lathe... he has 2 of the same and the tooling below isnt going with the other. The other has a tailstock, and possibly s steady rest

 

[tool_scrounge]

That is the top of the line Craftsman metal lathe. I had one years ago. Great for home use if you are working on smaller stuff. Having the motor and drive below in the stand make for a lathe that is not very deep which is nice if you are tight on space. If the gears, bearings and half nut is in good shape I would go for it. Not a hard lathe to sell if you upgrade later.

 

[whateg01]

Kinda sus if he is using the pic of the "good" machine to sell the "not so good" one.

 

[RoninB4]

-A Sunnen hone is a terrific machine IF you need one for what you do. You apparently do NOT need one. A terrific machine you don't need just sits there with the money/floor space ******* isn't so terrific anymore. Additionally, you don't have the arbors, abrasive stones, bore gauges, or setting rings needed to make the Sunnen operational. Not cheap for all those.

-The lathe, while small, is (hopefully) ready to use and suits what you want it for. The condition of the lathe is EVERYTHING so you need to make sure the ways don't have excessive wear (near headstock), the back/bull gears aren't broken, the headstock bearings aren't noisy or have excess wear, and the half nuts aren't worn out. Check the saddle, cross slide, and compound for excessive wear too. The stead/follow rests are only important when working on shafts that stick too far out of the chuck. They're also good for a selling point when it's time to step up to a better lathe. I've been machining for decades and really haven't used a steady/follow rest all that often. It depends upon what type/size/length of work you'll do.

-If you're not sure of something ask here now cuz after purchase is too late.

 

[threepiece]

I have never used a small machine like the Craftsman or Atlas but I have used various other sizes. I would expect the small lathe WILL do any size job in steel that will fit. The main difference between the small machine and big ones is the time it takes to complete the same job.

 

[tbirkey214]

I have never used a small machine like the Craftsman or Atlas but I have used various other sizes. I would expect the small lathe WILL do any size job in steel that will fit. The main difference between the small machine and big ones is the time it takes to complete the same job.

I used to use a southbend from the 30s that was entirely belt driven and it really was a pain to use. It never seemed to really cut on steel very well soda that's why I ask

 

[RoninB4]

I used to use a southbend from the 30s that was entirely belt driven and it really was a pain to use. It never seemed to really cut on steel very well soda that's why I ask

-The lathe in question won't peel off metal like a larger, more powerful one will. The depth-of-cut (DOC) will border on .030-.050 before it starts to strain the powertrain (material and cutter make a difference) but if this is hobby class work (not paid) then it shouldn't be an issue to take an extra cut and a little more time. Also, peeling off more metal will mean dealing with a larger "birds-nest" of metal coming off and presenting a greater danger to the operator. This will happen until you learn to create a chip breaker that only allows smaller, more manageable chips, ideally 6's and 9's. I would further suggest getting a bench grinder and use HSS instead of carbide on a small lathe like this.

 

[OccupantRJ]

Trade him before he catches you smiling and changes his mind. I could sell a lot of those lathes before the hone would ever move. Automotive machine shops are slowly fading and most home gamers have no need of that level of equipment. I have a restored flywheel grinder awaiting a home right now.

 

[CraigStu]

I'd go for it in a heartbeat. What would you use a hone for if you are not in an engine rebuild business? I like my similar lathe.

 

[Ultradog MN]

I see a lot of guys who think their first lathe should be their "forever" lathe.
I say get a lathe. Learn to run it, get some tooling and measuring tools to go with it. Make some stuff, develop some skills.
If the lathe doesnt serve your purposes, sell it and get a better one. If you bought it, someone else will buy it.
If you pay a little too much don't worry about it. You are learning, practicing, experimenting. That is worth something.
And you still have the tools.
I'm on my 5th metal lathe. Each was better than the last. It's a progression.

 

[Cruzan80]

and the half nuts aren't worn out.

IIRC, these half nuts are Zamak, so they do wear quite a bit, but there are tons of people selling replacements out there for not too much money.

 

[larry4406]

I can't see any real use for a hone for homeshop use so I would make the deal and move on.

 

[whateg01]

Bird in the hand...

You can hold onto the hone until it is only worth scrap value, or you can take what's offered now. I still question the seller's motive behind using a photo of a different machine.

 

[Recoveryman]

Tbirkey214: If you have your doubts about a so-called heavy cuts, then it will give you grief when threading.
Sarge41

 

[tbirkey214]

-The lathe in question won't peel off metal like a larger, more powerful one will. The depth-of-cut (DOC) will border on .030-.050 before it starts to strain the powertrain (material and cutter make a difference) but if this is hobby class work (not paid) then it shouldn't be an issue to take an extra cut and a little more time. Also, peeling off more metal will mean dealing with a larger "birds-nest" of metal coming off and presenting a greater danger to the operator. This will happen until you learn to create a chip breaker that only allows smaller, more manageable chips. I would further suggest getting a bench grinder and use HSS instead of carbide on a small lathe like this.

I got a guy that I'm trying to work out a swap for on a carbide grinder for a Kurt Vice I have, should I be using the older tooling instead of the inserts and why?

 

[tbirkey214]

I'd go for it in a heartbeat. What would you use a hone for if you are not in an engine rebuild business? I like my similar lathe.

I got it for very close to free at an auction, and I figured I would trade for something cool or sell it for some rent money

 

[whateg01]

I got a guy that I'm trying to work out a swap for on a carbide grinder for a Kurt Vice I have, should I be using the older tooling instead of the inserts and why?

You should be able to grind HSS tooling. Some will say you can't use carbide on a small machine, but they also say a small machine won't make parts. I switched to carbide shortly after buying my first lathe. Really almost by accident. There were some inserted tool holders with inserts in a box of HSS blanks. The biggest issue with carbide on small machines is it doesn't hold the same sharp edge that HSS is capable of. That makes it harder to sneak up on a dimension. Modern carbide is better there than older stuff though, so it's less of an issue now than it used to be. You can even buy HSS inserts for some shapes.

 

[RoninB4]

I got a guy that I'm trying to work out a swap for on a carbide grinder for a Kurt Vice I have, should I be using the older tooling instead of the inserts and why?

-I made a "suggestion" based upon my own preference and your situation, that doesn't mean I'm right or wrong. If you're planning on running carbide inserts then the grinder will be almost useless. Inserts aren't supposed to be re-sharpened (yes we've all done it a time or two) and whatever edge geometry you grind on the insert will likely be inferior to what the factory put on to begin with.

HSS can be ground/shaped to an almost infinite number of way-Carbide is limited to factory shapes/geometry

HSS can be ground with almost any abrasive, even with a Dremel while still in the lathe-Carbide needs a diamond wheel, those green wheels (silicon-carbide) are for roughing and leave a ragged edge.

HSS is a lot tougher, will take the abuse of an interrupted cut-Carbide is more fragile, will have micro chipping on an interrupted cut (like a weldment is) and vibration from a small lathe will slowly affect it too. You can even broach a spline or shaft keyway in a lathe with HSS, I wouldn't expect a carbide insert to hold up for that.

Are there times when I prefer carbide? Hardened material, some weldments, tool steel, and sometimes for stainless steel. Most of those can also be machined with HSS, just slower. For machining brass or aluminum carbide is almost pointless.

Carbide was largely developed to use with higher spindle speeds in a production setting. You need to look up the spindle speeds for the materials you expect to run into (SFPM). If your lathe can't run at the calculated SFPM then you're not getting the benefit potential of carbide and also exerting greater stress on the insert itself. Some of the older lathes don't even have spindle speeds high enough to use carbide effectively. Check material calculations and compare to your lathe model speeds.

This is all JMO, everybody has different preferences and work methods. I feel your money would be better spent on a decent bench/pedestal grinder, a quick change tool holder (wedge type is better than piston type) and a handful of toolholders to avoid cutting tool (HSS or carbide) removal for different operations. A live center for the tailstock (dead centers ****) if you do work that hangs out of the chuck. Some measuring instruments will be needed too. You do what is best for you,

 

[Ultradog MN]

-I made a "suggestion" based upon my own preference and your situation, that doesn't mean I'm right or wrong. If you're planning on running carbide inserts then the grinder will be almost useless. Inserts aren't supposed to be re-sharpened (yes we've all done it a time or two) and whatever edge geometry you grind on the insert will likely be inferior to what the factory put on to begin with.

HSS can be ground/shaped to an almost infinite number of way-Carbide is limited to factory shapes/geometry

HSS can be ground with almost any abrasive, even with a Dremel while still in the lathe-Carbide needs a diamond wheel, those green wheels (silicon-carbide) are for roughing and leave a ragged edge.

HSS is a lot tougher, will take the abuse of an interrupted cut-Carbide is more fragile, will have micro chipping on an interrupted cut (like a weldment is) and vibration from a small lathe will slowly affect it too. You can even broach a spline or shaft keyway in a lathe with HSS, I wouldn't expect a carbide insert to hold up for that.

Are there times when I prefer carbide? Hardened material, some weldments, tool steel, and sometimes for stainless steel. Most of those can also be machined with HSS, just slower. For machining brass or aluminum carbide is almost pointless.

Carbide was largely developed to use with higher spindle speeds in a production setting. You need to look up the spindle speeds for the materials you expect to run into (SFPM). If your lathe can't run at the calculated SFPM then you're not getting the benefit potential of carbide and also exerting greater stress on the insert itself. Some of the older lathes don't even have spindle speeds high enough to use carbide effectively. Check material calculations and compare to your lathe model speeds.

This is all JMO, everybody has different preferences and work methods. I feel your money would be better spent on a decent bench/pedestal grinder, a quick change tool holder (wedge type is better than piston type) and a handful of toolholders to avoid cutting tool (HSS or carbide) removal for different operations. A live center for the tailstock (dead centers ****) if you do work that hangs out of the chuck. Some measuring instruments will be needed too. You do what is best for you,

Good post.
Here's some more random thoughts -
You do need to learn to grind tools - if you are ever going to do all the things a lathe can do.
Carbide is great but it isn't the end all in machining. Those small, old lathes were built for HSS and often don't have the power or rigidity to run carbide. Small, multiple cuts is how they do best. Of course that takes patience - something a beginner may not have a lot of
There are lots of YT videos about running a lathe. I'll bet there are some about Buying a lathe too that would be invaluable for a guy wanting to get started.
A worn out old lathe that has missing or broken parts is still a lathe. Learn a little about what to look for and how to "field test" a lathe that doesn't have power to it.

 

[BillK]

I have that same exact lathe and it does pretty much anything I need it to do. Just take a good look at the ways right up close to the chuck which is where they wear the most. I would do that swap in a second if you have no need for the hone.

 

[bmwrd0]

We had an older version of that lathe, a 12" Craftsman commercial, in the rebuild room at the shop I worked at. It was there since new, and did every thing we needed. If you aren't into the honing machine for much, do it and don't look back.

 

[kbuhagiar]

This guy's got two and of course he took a picture of the better one with all the tooling. He said there might be another steady rest but he's not sure, I don't think I should be out over $1,000 without either steady rest or Jacob's truck or live centers9

I said in my post, this is his other lathe... he has 2 of the same and the tooling below isnt going with the other. The other has a tailstock, and possibly s steady rest

Sounds like the real question is what exactly are you getting with the lathe he is offering.

I would ask for a picture of the actual lathe he is offering and specifically what tooling is included. Personally, having searched for lathes before, I would want to confirm that the other lathe is, in fact, in good working & operating condition and hopefully includes at the minimum a 3-jaw chuck and a tailstock.

By the way, I agree with everyone else that says take the lathe and run, assuming that the lathe is in good working order.

 

[tbirkey214]

Went qnd picked it up today. Was in peices so didnt get to run it and guy seemed a little untrustable since he had tried to keep the 4 jaw then later found it once I brought it up, but all in all its looking pretty good. Wish I would have gotten it under power but the gears looked good except for one that had looked like a third of one spline had been damaged but im hoping I can file that part off.

 

[Cruzan80]

Not sure what is going on with the belt situation there. You do need to remove the back gears and the spindle to replace the drive belts.

 

[WisJim]

I suggest checking out the Atlas/Craftsman group on Groups IO https://groups.io/g/atlas-craftsman/topics
There's lots of info available through the site and in old discussions, and some knowledgeable folks who are usually willing to help out a newcomer.

 

[Ike Carlson]

I picked up a Sheldon ks lathe a few years ago. I paid $1,400 for it and it didn’t come with a lot. A set of mics, change gears, 3 jaw chuck, 2 backing plates, and some quick change tool holders. I bought it because there are a lot of times when I need a lathe. It has paid for itself with the projects I have done on it.

It sounds like you need a lathe more than the hone, and the hone is taking up space. Unless you have an active buyer for the hone that will pay significantly more than the lathe costs, trade! The lathe will be easy to sell if you ever decide to. The hone, not so much.