Framing before or after electrical on a metal building

[rpcraft]

Hey everyone, greetings and happy new year to everyone. I just recently had a small metal building constructed. It's not huge and for now I am happy with what it is. but my longer term plan for it is to be more than a shed. It's 13 x 25 with 10 ft walls and the frame work is 2 1/2 box tubing. I did the 10 foot wall so I would be able to work out some overhead storage, rather than it taking up floor space. I will have to work that out later to tie it in to the framing well but right now I am in the phase of needing a plan to go with the electrical work. My plan for interior walls is to have a 2 x 4 x 10 stud inserted in between the metal studs. This description is an over-simplification for wall build out plan so I am glossing over structural details but the plan is to ensure the wood studs add to the support weight of anything overhead and being attached to the walls.

My focus now is a path forward for electrical and what my next step should be. My plan is to have a 3 50 amp 240 outlets and a few 120 on each wall for varioius tools. Suggestions are welcome but my core question is should I do the framing, or just go ahead and get with an electrical contractor before any framing? Any tips would be appreciated. Thanks!

 

[PCustoms]

I'm a little lost as to what you're doing, but framing is generally done before electrical work is done

 

[PWC Repair]

Yes, frame first. The electrician will run through it where needed.

 

[The Cobbler]

yes, framing first for sure .

 

[rpcraft]

Ok. I figured as much but just wanted to double check. Thanks everyone.

 

[cvairwerks]

2x4 studs on 2 1/2 box tubing isn't going to give you enough room for that wiring. I'd plan on running the wiring in a chase on top of the studs and do drops where desired.

 

[rpcraft]

I'm not running the wiring. That'll be the electricians job. They can drill holes or whatever, just like they do in a house or any other metal buildng with stud walls added. I'm assuming they will need to use the armorclad or whatever that wiring is called anyways since it is a metal building. I may still call them to come and look and advise before hand. Probably better than than having to undo or redo anything.

 

[cvairwerks]

Running armored cable thru the studs means that you are going to be notching out everywhere it has to cross the steel tubing. Makes for a really hack looking job. Running Romex or other cable means that you have so little wood protecting it, that driving a screw thru it would be quite easy when putting up sheetrock or ply or other solid covering.

 

[dante2]

Conduit on top of the studs will go faster and cost less. I never noticed it from the beginning and adding a circuit is a lot easier.

 

[racecougar]

I'd suggest surface-mounted EMT. Not only will that negate all concerns about weakening the framing and potential for inadvertent wiring damage, it makes any later modifications simple.

 

[CraigStu]

dante2 and racecougar for the win!

 

[PWC Repair]

Running Romex or other cable means that you have so little wood protecting it, that driving a screw thru it would be quite easy when putting up sheetrock or ply or other solid covering.

No it wouldn't........first of all, building code requires the holes for romex be 1.25" in from the edge of a stud. If they are any closer it requires a steel plate which is NOT quite easy to just accidentally drive a screw through. Second, the screws holding the drywall aren't long enough to actually reach the wiring inside...........if they are, somebody screwed up!!

 

[Firebrick43]

No it wouldn't........first of all, building code requires the holes for romex be 1.25" in from the edge of a stud. If they are any closer it requires a steel plate which is NOT quite easy to just accidentally drive a screw through. Second, the screws holding the drywall aren't long enough to actually reach the wiring inside...........if they are, somebody screwed up!!

His first sentence is everything to the context of the third sentence but you failed to quote that part and try to argue with his point without it

 

[rpcraft]

I'd suggest surface-mounted EMT. Not only will that negate all concerns about weakening the framing and potential for inadvertent wiring damage, it makes any later modifications simple.

I hadn’t considered that but your actually right now that you mention it. Thanks for the advice. I probably should look at it more from the approach of a commercial unit than residential anyways.

 

[rpcraft]

I was also thinking I would like to do a Wayne’s coating type metal bottom half of some type and maybe barn wood planking up top and that would eliminate having to worry about fixture holes and stuff as well as allow me to keep the outlets at a reasonable height. I kind of want to keep them about 4 ft above the floor. Really appreciate the tip racecougar!!

 

[cvairwerks]

No it wouldn't........first of all, building code requires the holes for romex be 1.25" in from the edge of a stud. If they are any closer it requires a steel plate which is NOT quite easy to just accidentally drive a screw through. Second, the screws holding the drywall aren't long enough to actually reach the wiring inside...........if they are, somebody screwed up!!

Unless you have some weird math or are a physical systems genius, OP can't put a hole thru the stud at 1.5" from the shop side face without drilling out the entire face of the 2.5" tube it's married to. Besides, drilling thru that tubing with anything larger than a screw really knocks down the structural integrity.

 

[rpcraft]

Well no need to debate further in the grand scheme. Surface mount EMT seems like a smarter choice and honestly eliminates all the complications of stud drilling and cover plates. It's not like I am building a barndo this time around.

 

[logical]

I was also thinking I would like to do a Wayne’s coating type metal bottom half of some type and maybe barn wood planking up top and that would eliminate having to worry about fixture holes and stuff as well as allow me to keep the outlets at a reasonable height. I kind of want to keep them about 4 ft above the floor. Really appreciate the tip racecougar!!

It's wainscoting.

I'd go back to what was suggested earlier combined with the suggestion to surface mount and consider a chase all around the top of the walls and drop down inside surface mounted EMT so you have only vertical conduit. If you do a sane number of outlets and not the 67 that some will suggest it isn't that much more wire and looks like less of an afterthought.

 

[dcg9381]

Surface mount EMT seems like a smarter choice and honestly eliminates all the complications of stud drilling and cover plates. It's not like I am building a barndo this time around.

I do PVC surface mount because that's easier for me and have lots of PVC. Makes it way easier to "change" stuff later. EMT is fine too, just not my wheel house.
Either way, you kinda have to tell the electrician what you want. 3 x 50A and some 120V, the standard answer is a 90A main, unlikely you'll pull that kind of power all at the same time. Make sure he installs a panel with more slots than you need, don't do minimum. I prefer sub panels on both sides of the shop.

When I built my shop, I framed 1/4 of it out, got the main panel in, got the AC working and went from there... I framed OUT from the girts, which cost a little sqft, but then added 4x8 OSB panels, which can be removed to get at what's back there.

 

[CraigStu]

I also was thinking pvc conduit. What is the difference as far as code goes? PVC sure would be easier to cut.

 

[racecougar]

Downside to PVC, IMO, is the glued joints; once they're glued, it's more difficult to make changes in the future. EMT isn't difficult to work with. The learning curve is nearly a flat line.

 

[dscheidt]

Downside to PVC, IMO, is the glued joints; once they're glued, it's more difficult to make changes in the future. EMT isn't difficult to work with. The learning curve is nearly a flat line.

PVC also tends to look like **** if it’s not strapped down well, as it sags under its own weight.

 

[JasonMcElroy]

Couldn't help myself . . . sorry.

 

[rpcraft]

It's wainscoting.

I'd go back to what was suggested earlier combined with the suggestion to surface mount and consider a chase all around the top of the walls and drop down inside surface mounted EMT so you have only vertical conduit. If you do a sane number of outlets and not the 67 that some will suggest it isn't that much more wire and looks like less of an afterthought.

I've clearly seen it spelled many wrong ways so wasn't sure, lol. It still comes up on home depot when spelled wrong so yay for search algorythms!

 

[CraigStu]

Downside to PVC, IMO, is the glued joints; once they're glued, it's more difficult to make changes in the future. EMT isn't difficult to work with. The learning curve is nearly a flat line.

Just a curiosity since I have never worked with the pvc emt. Does it have to be glued? The stuff I see at L and/or HD seems to have overly long swelled ends so I always thought maybe it isn't glued.

 

[rjacobs]

Hey everyone, greetings and happy new year to everyone. I just recently had a small metal building constructed. It's not huge and for now I am happy with what it is. but my longer term plan for it is to be more than a shed. It's 13 x 25 with 10 ft walls and the frame work is 2 1/2 box tubing. I did the 10 foot wall so I would be able to work out some overhead storage, rather than it taking up floor space. I will have to work that out later to tie it in to the framing well but right now I am in the phase of needing a plan to go with the electrical work. My plan for interior walls is to have a 2 x 4 x 10 stud inserted in between the metal studs. This description is an over-simplification for wall build out plan so I am glossing over structural details but the plan is to ensure the wood studs add to the support weight of anything overhead and being attached to the walls.

I live an hour north of you... I have the same type of building just bigger(24x29x12). Your stud wall buildout seems iffy at best IMO for the type of building we have. I also cant imagine having any kind of "over head" storage in my building and I have 2' more sidewall than you do. How much distance to the ground are your cross beams in the roof structure? Mine are 13', so your's are likely only 11'(with 2' less wall, just spit balling here)... So are you planning to build a "shelf" with like 2-3' of storage space to maintain at least 8' underneath? If thats the case I would simply use something like 4x4's at the corners and build a deck like structure. You are only spanning 10'...2x8's will do that.

As has been said use EMT, surface mount everything, etc...

Get your building spray foamed. Screw whatever wall material you want straight to the square steel tubing.

Figure out something else for your "overhead storage"...

 

[racecougar]

Just a curiosity since I have never worked with the pvc emt. Does it have to be glued? The stuff I see at L and/or HD seems to have overly long swelled ends so I always thought maybe it isn't glued.

It's intended to be glued, and I believe code states it must be. Any time I've used it (which is outdoors), I've glued it.

 

[rpcraft]

I live an hour north of you... I have the same type of building just bigger(24x29x12). Your stud wall buildout seems iffy at best IMO for the type of building we have. I also cant imagine having any kind of "over head" storage in my building and I have 2' more sidewall than you do. How much distance to the ground are your cross beams in the roof structure? Mine are 13', so your's are likely only 11'(with 2' less wall, just spit balling here)... So are you planning to build a "shelf" with like 2-3' of storage space to maintain at least 8' underneath? If thats the case I would simply use something like 4x4's at the corners and build a deck like structure. You are only spanning 10'...2x8's will do that.

As has been said use EMT, surface mount everything, etc...

Get your building spray foamed. Screw whatever wall material you want straight to the square steel tubing.

Figure out something else for your "overhead storage"...

By overhead, I mean tools that take up floor space but you could put a rack over them to increase overhead storage and still access the tool. For example a 24 inch deep pallet rack setup that goes up to 10 ft tall... You can place a large drill press and similar objects under it, set a rack bottom at 6 ft (I'm 5 10) and still have about 4 ft of overhead storage on a 10 ft tall rack setup. Yeah I might not be able to get 100 of that height at the wall but I can still put things up top away from the wall. Things that are not often used and what not. spare parts beings and etc... With a setup like that I can still open the top of the drill press and change the belts and do whatever work I need, and even add some LED lighting underneath. If I fit three 8 ft sections along my back wall I can put a lot of the storage overhead and then have three sections free below to orient as needed. I could have a section that is a work bench with some storage underneath, plus a section that has the drill press, 6 x 48 belt sander, band saw, and stand with 2 bench grinders stacked on top of each other, and then another section that has a sand blast cabinet and it's assorted things (Its a front load), plus some other tool that would normally be on a stand or taking up floor space with no way to stack anything vertically above it. I'm just trying to maximize my space usage and instead of having a rack taking up just floor space sitting there not providing any use on the plane I am working in, incorporate the storage overhead so the space the rack takes up can contribute to functional work space instead of just taking away floor space.

I could never really do it in my garage because it was only an 8 ft ceiling and the garage door interference, along with 3 motorcycles, 72 inch tool box chest, rf-30 mill, and an Atlas QC54 lathe that needs a 60 inch workbench on it's own, along with a partridge in a pear tree, lol.

Those tools are staying in the garage, and all the other stuff I have is going in the shop, so somewhat of a separation of process. The building will be storage, but also I'll have a small plasma table, welding cart and table, along with blast cabinet and powder coat oven and booth. I'll probably figure out something to do with some racking over those as well for additional storage and occasionally still have some space to park a motorcycle or 2 in it. It's just making the best use of the space available without adding on to the shop, at least this year.

I will have to start a shop build thread I guess and document what I do along the way...

Thanks for the tips guys....

 

[rpcraft]

For visual reference to the over head aspect. This is a Cad layout of what I was thinking with just the Gladiator style racks and starting out. If I replaced the gladiator racks with the 3 pallet rack across that back wall all of that storage would be able to be placed overhead. and also still be a functional workspace. The 96 inch tool chest I was looking at as just a mechanism to mount my bench grinders, band saw and belt sander too along with storage for cutting discs, belts and what not. I could hang that off pegboard attached to the back wall of the rack space and then instead of the 96" workbench I could install them on a shorter work table on wheels that slides under the rack next to the drill press. I can use it there but if I need space for something longer I can move it out quick and easy and it's easy to put away when done. After that I can slide the parts washer down where that tool chest would have been so I can open the door and have some fresh air when using it and move my welding table back closer to the tig cart and curing oven so I don't have sparky stuff working next to the parts washer...

 

[rpcraft]

So I got a quote back for spray foaming for 4000$. Seems excessive for the space size. I have another company that is a regional chain to look and give me a quote tomorrow to compare. Waco area is pretty much what I would classify as about 85% (or more) of the year over 85F or more and the summer is closer to 100 for a great portion of it so I will be adding a mini split eventually. I doubt I will use it much for heating because when the temps drop that much I don't work too much. That said, I am leaning towards the 2.5 inch closed cell foam board which leaves me to ask, given the region and the weather should I still go ahead and use a moisture barrier against the metal. I keep seeing google search comments saying it is best to use and should but also says depends on climate. Anyone in the area know better. Any guidance would be appreciative. I'm going to call my shop builder tomorrow but it's the weekend so I am here asking now. Thanks

 

[cvairwerks]

When I was on a steel building crew in the Waco area, we didn't Tyvek the buildings, but then we were using plastic backed fiberglass roll insulation and chicken wire protection. Order of installation was hang wire, then insulation, plastic facing in, then sheet steel. Joints didn't get taped due to natural overlap.

What part of Waco are you in? I spent two years at "Harvard on the Highway", across the highway from Lacey Lakeview.........

 

[rpcraft]

I'm actually in the LL area within shouting distance of TSTC, lol.

 

[rpcraft]

Elecrical Q's - for those that know or know better

I have 2 options in front of me.

One is to pull a 125 amp circuit off my home breaker and do a combination of through attic and underground power. I've got a ballpark on what that can cost and waiting on the labor quote from an installer. It's probably still friendliest to my budget. I'm fairly confident I am not skilled enough to run a plasma table, tig welder, and powder coat oven all at the same time, in addition to lights a radio and AC, so thinking at any given time the maximum amp load could be well below the breaker limit (I anticipate 90 on the high side). My air compressor will still be running off my garage/house panel.

The other is to have Oncor install a second meter and have a full 200 Amp service. Personally I would like that just to have the overhead. I think I would be OK with the 125 amp setup, and my house has solar on it so running it off the breaker box would piggy back off that whole house system but I have the oncor engineer coming tomorrow to come up with a plan. I know the run will be probably about 160'ish feet and it is an underground service so I am curious if anyone has recently had oncor run a meter and what their cost is and what their intial run fee is, and then what overage costs are? I keep reading so much conflicting info on prices, so just wondering if someone in the Central Tx area has had a recent install setup and what they paid, and then what the basic oncor install covers. There's nothing on their site and I guess it is up to the engineer drawing to determine fee but I thought they used to have a basic install fee for runs of *** amount of feet.

Initially the oncor rep did say that if I were to go with the 125 amp breaker through the house panel they could offer 400 amp service to the house if I wanted to upgrade the meter box, just to offset the shop line and ensure the house has ample service but to be honest all that will normally be running in my house is AC and water heater... I am of the mindset that I can cross that bridge if needed but nothing I have to do upfront initially.

I am on a slight hold with the insulation company because I figure if I have to mount a meter box on the exterior then I need to add some internal support so just waiting on the engineer to come tomorrow and finalize a battle plan.

I've been dragging my 10 gauge extension cord out to build out a stud wall to support my overhead cabinets and will be so happy when that no longer has to happen, lol...


Thanks for any tips.