PEX confusion - is this just marketing?

[PoorUB]

Most supply houses here will sell direct, Bruce supply, Ferguson, Blackman, may not get the same price though.

Not one in my area will, except perhaps Ferguson, but I never did buy much from them so I have never tried. Like I said the other supply houses know me and they still wouldn't sell to me direct. It needs to go through a contractor. I have friends in the business yet so I give them a call and I buy off thier accounts and pay cash.

I worked for a wholesaler for years and we would chase off the general public all the time.

 

[Jackfre]

Because it is move flexible meaning that you can make more bends without fittings using the 90* bend supports. Excessive fittings absolutely can reduce flow so, avoid them. Also, avoid kinks with the most flexible. I look at A as top of the line and with a flexible pipe, given my experience, that is what I will choose. I would not call your choices wrong in any way. It is just my “fangs thru the floor” bias speaking

 

[DGersic]

The Sioux Chief PowerPEX tube is type B, according to their web site.

Read it again
"PowerPEX® tubing is offered as Type-B tubing for ⅛" – 2" tubing and generally available in red, white and blue colors as straight lengths and coils. PowerPEX® Type-A tubing is available in for ½" – 2" in select coil lengths and straight lengths"

Ah. Thanks. So maybe what they’re selling at Menards is actually Type A. That would be compatible with expansion or crimp fittings.

I hate marketing. Just tell me what the product is and be done with it.

 

[DGersic]

I'm not totally sure how significant the ID of the fittings really is when it comes to flow in a PEX system. Each run is supposed to only have 2 fittings(one on each end) and it seems like they would flow as much as the typical fixture that's then attached. Sink, shower head etc.

I used a manifold setup when I plumbed the upstairs apartment in my barn. I used PEX-b with the copper crimp rings. No leaks or problems of any kind and it was easy to work with overall. I've read that kinks in PEX other that PEX-a can't be fixed so I was very careful when I ran the lines to make wide radius bends and to use the bend supports wherever I had to turn 90 degrees.

I'm tempted by the manifold setup, but I’ll probably do trunk and branch.

 

[DGersic]

I've used both. You can see the flow difference by looking at the inner diameter on the crimp vs expansion type fittings. Crimp fittings and tools are less expensive. I found that both were pretty intuitive to work with.

Remember that your flow restriction may not be on the PEX side if you've got hodge-podge type legacy plumbing. And the flow restriction at the fitting won't matter if things are sized properly.

The hodge lodge of existing plumbing is going to have a date with my sawzall. Everything is coming out, back to the meter.

 

[DGersic]

What my point was, if the op went to a local supply house they would help set him up. I've seen homeowners go in with a sketch and the salesman would put together a list for them. Once he gets what he needs then fill in the little stuff at hd or lowes. I like that most suppliers have the right fitting, don't need to make something upand usually carry domestic.

I’ll see if the local supplier is interested, but my experience with local suppliers is that my home DIY money isn’t green enough for them. They only want to deal with professionals. Fair enough, most DIY project guys are likely people they’d rather not have to deal with, and I can understand that.

 

[Jackfre]

Considering the trunk and branch vs the manifold, look at the floor plan. Having to wait for hot water is a drag at a sink but not much of a problem at the tub/shower. Where waiting drives me nuts is at the kitchen sink. the cross sectional area of 1/2, 3/4, 1” pipe is .19, .44 and .77 sq in. That equated to volume and delay in delivery of hot water. In some cases I’ve run a dedicated 3/8 line to the kitchen faucet. Code doesn’t support it but pipe codes are so far behind what the real world needs that it doens’t matter to much to me. You may find a hybrid lay-out best.

 

[yatg]

That directly contradicts what's on the sign in the first post:




I dunno WTF is going on here.

If you look at this document

https://www.siouxchief.com/docs/default-source/technical-documents/installations/supply/pex-systems---powerpex---installation-guide

bottom of page 6, the matrix says the B can be used with the F1960 fittings.

There's also a note on page 16
"Note: Sioux Chief recommends all ASTM F1960 expansion joints using PowerPEX Type-B tubing be made with a self-rotating, power expansion tool to avoid improper expansion."

 

[rlitman]

If you look at this document

https://www.siouxchief.com/docs/default-source/technical-documents/installations/supply/pex-systems---powerpex---installation-guide

bottom of page 6, the matrix says the B can be used with the F1960 fittings.

There's also a note on page 16
"Note: Sioux Chief recommends all ASTM F1960 expansion joints using PowerPEX Type-B tubing be made with a self-rotating, power expansion tool to avoid improper expansion."

Well that's news to me, but I'm reading that Zurn allows expansion in their PEX-B while Apollo forbids it. Sounds interesting, but Sioux Chief also say you can use expansion fittings with PE-RT. Would you even consider trying that? I sure wouldn't.

 

[dcg9381]

Considering the trunk and branch vs the manifold, look at the floor plan. Having to wait for hot water is a drag at a sink but not much of a problem at the tub/shower. Where waiting drives me nuts is at the kitchen sink. the cross sectional area of 1/2, 3/4, 1” pipe is .19, .44 and .77 sq in. That equated to volume and delay in delivery of hot water. In some cases I’ve run a dedicated 3/8 line to the kitchen faucet. Code doesn’t support it but pipe codes are so far behind what the real world needs that it doens’t matter to much to me. You may find a hybrid lay-out best.

We have a limited water supply, so not wasting water is important for us.
I found that some Rinnai tankless water heaters had circulation pumps built in. I didn't like the idea of constant circulation (energy burn) - so I found that you could set these up to have "circulation triggered". All the bathrooms have "door bells" next to the shower. Just press the button about 1-2 min before you take a shower and you won't waste much water (or energy).

Doing this requires that you design for circulation loops, but in terms of overall cost - it doesn't add much.

 

[haveissues]

Around here one Lowe's sells expansion fittings, the other 10 miles away does not.

If I'm doing any project that is more than a handful of fittings I order from supplyhouse.com. Prices are good, they ship quickly and accurately and they don't give a **** what my day job is.

 

[DGersic]

Considering the trunk and branch vs the manifold, look at the floor plan. Having to wait for hot water is a drag at a sink but not much of a problem at the tub/shower. Where waiting drives me nuts is at the kitchen sink. the cross sectional area of 1/2, 3/4, 1” pipe is .19, .44 and .77 sq in. That equated to volume and delay in delivery of hot water. In some cases I’ve run a dedicated 3/8 line to the kitchen faucet. Code doesn’t support it but pipe codes are so far behind what the real world needs that it doens’t matter to much to me. You may find a hybrid lay-out best.

The kitchen sink is 8’ vertical from the meter. I have to go about 6’ to the water heater. it gets hot water about as fast as is possible.

The bathroom sink, on the other hand, takes forever. I’m thinking a passive return loop to keep it warmer. Doesn’t need full hot, just not ice cold in the winter.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Buy a bunch of those 90° reinforcement brackets. Use them where ever possible. Less expensive than fitting and much less restriction.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I'm tempted by the manifold setup, but I’ll probably do trunk and branch.

Use 3/4" as much as possible. 1" would be even better if it has to feed multiple branches.

 

[Wheelingit]

FWIW. I did my first pex jobs in 1992 using Wirsbo and their compression fittings. They are still in service with no problems. And Sioux Chief makes some of the best plumbing materials in the USA.

 

[thebmrust]

We will be doing Pex in our house next year. But it’s a small house and full crawl space access.

My understanding (foggy memory):
Pex A
Specialized and expensive tools.
Full flow fittings/joints (pipe ID = fitting ID)
Pipe slightly more expensive.

Pex B
Easier and less expensive to install.
Reduced flow fittings/joints (upsize pipe to allow for appropriate flow).
Harder to install in small confined difficult spaces.

 

[Jackfre]

We have a limited water supply, so not wasting water is important for us.
I found that some Rinnai tankless water heaters had circulation pumps built in. I didn't like the idea of constant circulation (energy burn) - so I found that you could set these up to have "circulation triggered". All the bathrooms have "door bells" next to the shower. Just press the button about 1-2 min before you take a shower and you won't waste much water (or energy).

Doing this requires that you design for circulation loops, but in terms of overall cost - it doesn't add much.

Rinnai lets you do the Grundfos cross over valve or use the dedicated recirc line which is far superior.. I think it is the RSR models that have the circ built in. You have quite a lot of options in the set up For the recirc. IF you have a good internet signal their wireless control works well. pair the module to the water heater an get a couple of the wireless motion sensors installing them high up in the corner of the bathrooms. They pick up you entry and fire up the pump, shutting down when the return water is at temp. For the kitchen a push button next to the sink up under the cabinet works well. If you internet is intermittent the system can be a giant pita, so that is step one. I think they have come out with a new system that kind learns your use pattern, but I don’t have info on that.

 

[rslaback]

I feel like threads like this always need a disclaimer about "go to the supplyhouse". Some of us live in less densely populated areas. If I want to find a Home Depot or Menards I am driving 45 minutes to an hour. There are no local supplyhouses to get quotes from. There might be a single supplyhouse at the end of an hour drive but having grown up in construction I can tell you that there is a very good chance they won't sell to you.

My dad's company did a lot of replacement windows, siding and roofing and our main suppliers would not sell to the general public. It was a symbiotic relationship. We kept them in business by ordering lots of product and they kept us in business by selling to us at wholesale allowing our bids to be more palatable compared to the DIY cost. If you find a commercial supplier that is willing to sell to JQ Public then you don't really have a commercial supplier.

 

[reader2580]

My dad's company did a lot of replacement windows, siding and roofing and our main suppliers would not sell to the general public. It was a symbiotic relationship. We kept them in business by ordering lots of product and they kept us in business by selling to us at wholesale allowing our bids to be more palatable compared to the DIY cost. If you find a commercial supplier that is willing to sell to JQ Public then you don't really have a commercial supplier.

There are at least four local lumberyards that will sell to the public, but two of the really big ones charge more than the big boxes to retail customers. I think they charge a lot to dissuade small retail customers from using them. The third one is not at all set up for retail customers, but will sell a larger order to a retail customer. They might tell you to go to Menards if you need a 2x4 or two. A fourth one mostly sells to contractors, but will sell some stuff retail.

All four of them will sell to the public occasionally, but probably 99% of their business is delivering to contractors.

 

[denis4x4]

I'm waiting for the ServiceMaster crew to show up this morning to finish the flood cleanup in the basement when a shark bite let go. This is the second one to let go in a month. Both were installed about ten years ago. I will be replacing a couple of shark bite installations with copper in the next 30 days.

 

[reader2580]

Ouch on the Sharkbites. My plumbing in my house is half copper and half PEX. I used Sharkbites in unfinished areas of the basement to transition from PEX to copper as my soldering skills sucked at the time I did it. I have since learned to solder fairly decently. I should probably replace the Sharkbites with proper soldered brass expansion PEX fittings to do things right.

However, I used Sharkbite fittings in my converted bus back in 2006/2007 and they are still holding. I wasn't aware of expansion PEX back then so I used Sharkbite fittings and a Manabloc manifold.

 

[littleboss]

Stop going to home depot, go to a local plumbing supply house & tell the salesman what you're doing. They will set you up with what you need & probably have all the fittings in stock. You will also find fittings that aren't stocked in a box store. Stick with pex A & either get the milwaukee or dewalt expander, the money you're saving doing it yourself pays for the tools.

https://www.homedepot.com/b/Plumbin...EX-Fittings/Expansion/N-5yc1vZ1z18i38Z1z1b52s

I don't like Home depot but they do sell Pex A fittings

 

[75gmck25]

You should also consider how big the job is and/or how often you need to make changes. PEX A uses an expensive expansion tool (used to be around $400), and PEX A may often not be stocked at the local store. PEX B uses a simple crimping tool. and if you need a little more pipe to finish a job you can probably find it at a local store. However, PEX B is a PIA for repairs in a limited space, since the crimp tool usually works very much like bolt cutters, and you need space for the handles to spread out and close again.

I've replaced most of my plumbing pipes with PEX B, and replaced all the radiator pipe runs with Oxygen barrier PEX B. I initially decided to use PEX B because the first job was a simple basement bathroom, but based on the final scope I could probably now justify buying the PEX A expansion tool.

I tried to plan ahead and buy the PEX B, fittings, manifolds and tools from SupplyHouse or PEXUniverse because they were incredibly cheaper than the local HD or Lowes. For the radiators I used stainless manifolds with flow meters so they could be balanced, but for the plumbing work I used simple copper manifolds with individual shutoffs. For most fixtures I can go to a manifold and shut off the water to that fixture and the rest of the house still works fine.

My wife continues to make fun of me and my plumbing manifolds behind various access panels. However, I really like the ability to shut off water for individual fixtures and to close off individual radiators. YMMV

 

[DGersic]

Not the greatest video, but it does seem that expansion fitting PEX type B is a thing.

Still slowly researching this project.

 

[wrbrb]

I found this thread searching about Pex A and Pex B, and wanted to add what I am seeing.

In addition to the image in the first post of this thread saying "All Sioux Chief PowerPEX tubing can be properly used with crimp, cinch, expansion & quick connect fittings", when you walk over to the fitting aisle at Menards they have some signs hanging by the expansion fittings telling you not to use them with blue or red PEX. So, this adds to the confusion.

It would be nice if the PEX had its manufacturing method or type printed on it with the other dozens of marks, but I don't think it's on there anywhere.

However, if you look at the Sioux Chief online catalog, they only list PEX-A as sold in coils or 20 ft sticks and only white (sticks) or natural (coils) in color. The PEX-B is listed as available in white, blue, or red.

So, I think what is happening is that the 5' and 10' red and blue Sioux Chief sticks, and also the red and blue coils of any length being sold at Menards are PEX-B. But they have the F1960 designation printed on them, indicating they are certified for expansion even though they are PEX-B. This might be a more recent certification.

Their catalog also mentions "All expansion joints made using PowerPEX Type-B tubing must be made with a self-rotating, power expansion tool to eliminate weak spots and avoid improper expansion rates."

So, I guess if you have a manual Pex A expansion tool that you want to use for a one-time repair, or you are a homeowner trying to save money with a cheaper tool, you need to buy a power tool to avoid leaks.

I am by no means a professional, but personally would avoid using the PEX-B with expansion fittings, as indicated on the yellow warning signs by the expansion fittings (although I think those are old signs that probably are kept up for liability reasons, that reference a time when Sioux Chief did not yet have the F1960 designation on their PEX-B product... just guessing here)... and also because I don't have the power expansion tool.

I want actual PEX-A, so I am likely going to special order it from Menards/HomeDepot/Lowes or order it from an online supply house like PexUniverse or SupplyHouse, but will make sure it's actually indicated as Peroxide or Engel method, and that I'm cross-referencing the proper UPC from a catalog indicating it's a PEX-A part.

 

[DGersic]

I found this thread searching about Pex A and Pex B, and wanted to add what I am seeing.

In addition to the image in the first post of this thread saying "All Sioux Chief PowerPEX tubing can be properly used with crimp, cinch, expansion & quick connect fittings", when you walk over to the fitting aisle at Menards they have some signs hanging by the expansion fittings telling you not to use them with blue or red PEX. So, this adds to the confusion.

It would be nice if the PEX had its manufacturing method or type printed on it with the other dozens of marks, but I don't think it's on there anywhere.

However, if you look at the Sioux Chief online catalog, they only list PEX-A as sold in coils or 20 ft sticks and only white (sticks) or natural (coils) in color. The PEX-B is listed as available in white, blue, or red.

So, I think what is happening is that the 5' and 10' red and blue Sioux Chief sticks, and also the red and blue coils of any length being sold at Menards are PEX-B. But they have the F1960 designation printed on them, indicating they are certified for expansion even though they are PEX-B. This might be a more recent certification.

Their catalog also mentions "All expansion joints made using PowerPEX Type-B tubing must be made with a self-rotating, power expansion tool to eliminate weak spots and avoid improper expansion rates."

So, I guess if you have a manual Pex A expansion tool that you want to use for a one-time repair, or you are a homeowner trying to save money with a cheaper tool, you need to buy a power tool to avoid leaks.

I am by no means a professional, but personally would avoid using the PEX-B with expansion fittings, as indicated on the yellow warning signs by the expansion fittings (although I think those are old signs that probably are kept up for liability reasons, that reference a time when Sioux Chief did not yet have the F1960 designation on their PEX-B product... just guessing here)... and also because I don't have the power expansion tool.

I want actual PEX-A, so I am likely going to special order it from Menards/HomeDepot/Lowes or order it from an online supply house like PexUniverse or SupplyHouse, but will make sure it's actually indicated as Peroxide or Engel method, and that I'm cross-referencing the proper UPC from a catalog indicating it's a PEX-A part.

That’s interesting. At the time, I’m sure that my local Menards did not have a sign like that. Maybe they do now, I’ll have to check next time I’m there to see.

After a lot of research and thinking, I went with the PEX-B and F1960 expansion (brass) fittings. The sign in your picture seems to be in front of the plastic fittings. Maybe they’re making a distinction there now.

You may also like my thread coving the re-pipe project.

Thread 'Plumbing Project - Re-Pipe the House'
https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/threads/plumbing-project-re-pipe-the-house.509833/

If you’re doing F1960 expansion, the Milwaukee tool absolutely rocks. Buy it.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Comments from a DIYer who redid a 1200 sq ft home about 10 years ago and if I had to do it again.

• PEX-A faster/easier to install. Less restrictive fittings. Cheaper fitting and "sleeves".
• If you buy a coil, unroll as much as you can in a warm location and let it "relax". This will take hours. (We wound up throwing away a coil and buying sticks.)
• Red and blue pipe look nice, but you can buy a roll of red and a roll of blue electricians tape and possibly have less left over pipe !
• Use the largest diameter pipe you can. This is typically 3/4", but if you are not going to "home run" and use a pre-made manifold, try to use 1" to feed smaller pipes.
• Use as few fitting (especially 90°s) as possible. Saves money and provide better flow. Use the reinforcement brackets wherever you can.
• Use the pre-made copper faucet stub outs ! (This may not be possible in a retro-fit situation.) They attach firmly to studs and then you can use 1/4 turn compression fittings for the faucet stop valves. Plus you can pressure test the system without the faucet stops.

 

[whateg01]

I've always wondered how much of a difference the restriction of a crimp fitting really makes.

Grain of salt and all that...

The Truth About PEX Flow Rates

All fittings cause a pressure drop, though the degree varies by type and material

info.viega.us

 

[rlitman]

I've always wondered how much of a difference the restriction of a crimp fitting really makes.

Grain of salt and all that...

The Truth About PEX Flow Rates

All fittings cause a pressure drop, though the degree varies by type and material

info.viega.us

So they're showing 5% when the flow in 1/2" pipe is almost 4GPM. However, 1/2" PEX is designed to top out at 2.3 GPM based on a 4 ft/s flow rate, which means (as I've said in other threads) that if you want that sort of flow where the expansion fitting might make a marginal difference, you really should have stepped up to 3/4" PEX anyway (which is rated for 4.6GPM).

And that 5% loss is through 7 fittings, when a PEX run from manifold to fixture really doesn't need more than a fitting on each end.

I'm not saying PEX-A and / or expansion fittings don't have their uses, but I for one feel that PEX-A is way overused, and expansion's use cases are VERY limited.

 

[csp]

But they have the F1960 designation printed on them, indicating they are certified for expansion even though they are PEX-B. This might be a more recent certification.

These ASTM ratings are what matter when it comes to if you can use expansion fittings.

My local Home Depot sells PexA in 20' sticks and 50', 100' and 200' rolls.

 

[DGersic]

These ASTM ratings are what matter when it comes to if you can use expansion fittings.

My local Home Depot sells PexA in 20' sticks and 50', 100' and 200' rolls.

I stopped by Menards on Friday. Their signage makes no sense at all.



They sell Sioux Chief PowerPEX tubing in red, blue, and white. All are printed with F1960. They sell fittings “for use with all types of PowerPEX tubing”, but now have this pop out sign saying otherwise.

Something is wonky here. I put questions in to Menards and Sioux Chief to see if either can explain this.

PEX A vs. B specifies only how the tubing is made. It is not a spec for a type of fitting.

 

[DGersic]

I found this thread searching about Pex A and Pex B, and wanted to add what I am seeing.

In addition to the image in the first post of this thread saying "All Sioux Chief PowerPEX tubing can be properly used with crimp, cinch, expansion & quick connect fittings", when you walk over to the fitting aisle at Menards they have some signs hanging by the expansion fittings telling you not to use them with blue or red PEX. So, this adds to the confusion.

I haven’t heard back from Sioux Chief yet, but I did hear back from Menards.

Thanks for thinking of Menards for your Plumbing needs and we are sorry for the confusion caused by the sign posted near our Pex Expansion Fittings. All Sioux Chief PowerPEX Tubing (Red, White, Blue & Clear) accepts both Crimp & Expansion Fittings as they meet all ATSM F1960 specifications. This sign was correct when we carried Nibco brand PEX-C and PEX-A Tubing which could not be interchanged with the Fittings. Thanks to your feedback we will make sure all stores remove this incorrect signage to avoid future issues.

So, I guess I’ll wait a week or two, then go see if the sign has been taken down. I don’t know how long it has been there, or when they were selling Nibco tubing. I do know that it wasn’t there in Jan 2022 when I bought almost all of the supplies to re-pipe my house. Everything I bought was Sioux Chief, except for a few F1960 expansion fittings I got from SupplyHouse.

I’ll update this thread if anything further turns up.

 

[csp]

PEX A vs. B specifies only how the tubing is made. It is not a spec for a type of fitting.

Forget about the Pex A and Pex B designations. The ASTM specs tell you which type of fitting that particular piece of tubing is compatible with. It doesn't need to be any more complicated than that. If the Sioux Chief is only marked as F1960 then it agrees with their little yellow sign. It's for expansion fittings only. If it were rated for compression it would have more designations.

The PEX I bought is listed as ASTM F876/F877/F1807/F2159/F2098/F1960. If you look those up you'll find that means it works with compression and expansion fittings.

 

[DGersic]

Forget about the Pex A and Pex B designations. The ASTM specs tell you which type of fitting that particular piece of tubing is compatible with. It doesn't need to be any more complicated than that. If the Sioux Chief is only marked as F1960 then it agrees with their little yellow sign. It's for expansion fittings only. If it were rated for compression it would have more designations.

The PEX I bought is listed as ASTM F876/F877/F1807/F2159/F2098/F1960. If you look those up you'll find that means it works with compression and expansion fittings.

Agreed, A and B are not relevant for fittings. But there’s a lot of poor information out there equating A with expansion F1960 and B with compression. Sioux Chief has other designations for compression as well. Can’t be bothered right now to go look them up.

 

[DGersic]

If the Sioux Chief is only marked as F1960 then it agrees with their little yellow sign. It's for expansion fittings only. If it were rated for compression it would have more designations.

Sioux Chief ATSM standards sticker from a random roll of tubing at Menards:

 

[DGersic]

I happened to be in Menards yesterday in the plumbing section, and was happy to see that the confusing sign has been removed.

 

[BobnCO]

I will add I remodeled my last house with Pex B and a manual crimper it was OK had a couple small leaks but fixed. This time I used Pex A. Home Depot in Colorado recently started carrying Pex A fittings and plumber freind gave me enough Pex A pipe for free so I decided to get a used Milwaukee expansion tool. It is SOO much easier and faster, particulalry in tight spots (as opposed to hand crimp tool that took some muscle). If you have to do enough, the expansion system is much easier, and faster. YMMV

 

[gtae07]

my experience with local suppliers is that my home DIY money isn’t green enough for them.

That's generally been my experience as well. I prefer to deal with places that openly list prices instead of asking me to "call for quote" so they can charge me more based on who I am. I'll only go to a supply house as a last resort; the last locap place I dealt with gave me the shittiest product they had and made Lowe's look premium grade.

 

[mykrowsy]

Sorry I'm late to the party here. Generally, only PEX-a was compatible with expansion, fittings and methods, but now several manufacturers have certified their PEX b-pipe to the f1960 specification, which allows for pex fittings and tools to be used. Among those manufacturers are Sue, Chief and Zurn, although there may be others.

 

[pvanderlugt]

I am a die hard solder/copper kinda guy, but have been slowly converting to Pex A… if I had to do a whole house, Pex A /expanding all the way! Better flow, Nothing to fail, almost fool proof to install. The expanded Pex is going to spend its entire existence trying to get back into its original “smaller” shape.. yeah, the m12 Milwaukee tool is expensive, but it is also simple to use, and you can always sell on marketplace…. I would look into a whole house centralized manifold set up, makes life/servicing pretty simple and easy