Plumbing Project - Re-Pipe the House

[DGersic]

I’ve put a few pieces of this in other threads, but thought I’d do one with everything in it. Along the way, there’ll be a few WTF moments, and maybe a few useful lessons learned. I’ve been thinking about this project for about 20 years. Always too busy with work, life, and whatever. But I retired at the beginning of the year, so now I have the time. I told SWMBO that we’re doing this, and got busy.

First was putting my thoughts and ideas in to an actual plan. I spent a bunch of time in the basement looking up at the joists, measuring, and planning. Fortunately, I have a ranch house where 95% of the plumbing is accessible.

 

[The Cobbler]

looks like a well thought out plan.

 

[DGersic]

The house was built in 1950. At the time, the 1/2” galvanized pipe was well done, but…

70 years later, it’s rusty inside, so everything gets a shot of rust from time to time. Fixtures that should be white turn orange over time.

Over the years, somebody added a water softener, and ran a bunch of modifications with 3/8” copper. Soft copper tube was used to make connections.

Here‘s the ‘before”



Coupler? why use a coupler when you can make a slip joint?



Better than one slip joint with soft copper tube is TWO slip joints.



No idea why the air duct is grounded.

 

[DGersic]

Day 1, moved everything out of the way. The appliances in the laundry room, and the shelves and stuff stored in the storeroom all got relocated. Then moved SWMBO to a local hotel.

Sawzall to remove all the old plumbing.



I decided I wanted to move everything up in to the joist space. I don't think this was necessary, I could have hung it from the joists, but it seemed like the tubing would be better protected and out of the way. So I drilled a lot of holes.



I really like Irwin Speedbore tri-flute bits for making holes. They feed easy, and absolutely eat their way through wood. I needed big holes, 1 3/8”, which I was able to get from my local hardware store.




Unfortunately, the bit plus the length of my drill is too long to fit between the joists. So I made the bit shorter.

I had to add the 12” and 5 1/2” extensions to this to reach in to some of the areas where there isn’t a full joist space.

There was one hole this wouldn’t work for. I had to switch to a spade bit on an extension. I could only get 12” extensions, but needed a 12” and a 7”.



A few minutes with a grinder solved that problem…



… and allowed me to cause this one. I thought I had moved all of the wiring out of the way, but the spade found this one. Old black Romex was hiding up in there. Wrapped it around the bit and broke the wire. Lights went out.

Fortunately, no injury, and this particular light circuit has its own breaker. Turned it off, and kept working. To be fixed later.

 

[DGersic]

I was originally going to drill 1” holes to run 3/4” PEX through. Code allows it. But reading the manufacturer install directions, they want larger holes and their ”suspensulator” clamps to hold the tubing. So I decided on larger holes.

I cut some scrap 2x4 and drilled it before mounting it in the joist space at the east end of the basement. PEX requires support every 32”. They sell various clips and adapters to do this, but scrap 2x4 and holes are free.

At the point I started pulling the tube in, I was suddenly very glad for this decision. This might be easier with a helper, but I’m working alone. The first few holes are easy. Then I reachEd the corner. Bending 3/4” around the corner is ok, but then there’s that long stretch to the bathroom. Pulling on the end goes nowhere. I eventually found that pushing on it would move it an inch or so at a time. And every 14” I had to go guide the far end in to the next hole.

The larger holes helped here. Smaller holes would have made this a lot worse.

The 1/2” (hot return) was significantly easier.

 

[DGersic]

Day 2, getting all the new stuff in.



I had previously modified a bunch of PEX clips to allow Tapcon mounting. Drilled a bunch of holes in the wall, and mounted the vertical branches, connecting them to the trunk as I went. This allowed pushing and pulling the tubing to fit the T connections in.

I found this nice PEX meter connection on supplyhouse.com, along with a bunch of other parts to make this easier and neater.

The ball valve with drain, after the meter, is code required here now. Not sure why it’s needed, but it’s code, so I have it.



Supply House has these nice drop ear 90* supports. I used several.



This box had a lid on it. As I’m routing tubing and making connections, I’m also removing old wiring, boxes, and other stuff that’s in the way but not actually in use. This one has always been blocked from access behind the old plumbing. With that out of the way, I had to open it to see what’s in there. Bare wires, as seen here. Going to have to fix this. I think it’s abandoned wiring, so I can probably yank it all out.

This also shows the clamps installed. One I had the laundry room roughly done, I put these all in to keep everything in place while working on the bathroom connections.



Routing through an air return. I sealed around the tubes with caulk saver rope before installing the clamps.

 

[The Cobbler]

The ball valve with drain, after the meter, is code required here now. Not sure why it’s needed, but it’s code, so I have it.

after the meter?
the drain is so you can drain the water in a no heat situation, we have them here. but usually the valve is before the meter so it can be shut off to replace or service the meter

 

[DGersic]

I mostly used the 100’ coils for everything, but I found that using a couple of 10’ straight sticks helped. Use those where you want an actual straight run, like the ones down the wall. The coils want to stay coiled, not run straight.

Day 3, working upstairs in the bathroom, and down in the basement. Got a lot of trips up and down.



I’m not the first guy that needed access to the shower valve. Somebody previously hacked out this access hole in the back of the hall closet. Normally it’s covered by a piece of 1/2” plywood and hidden behind all of the stuff that lives in a hall closet.



Removed galvanized fittings and pipes until it was almost all gone. I left the galvanized riser to the shower head, because there is no access to it. Pulled in some 1/2” PEX.



PEX to MIP. There isn’t quite enough room to install the fittings, but some pulling back on the valve got them in and tight.

This is all expansion PEX. I got the Milwaukee expander tool. Works well, fast, and is damned near foolproof in operation.

 

[DGersic]

after the meter?
the drain is so you can drain the water in a no heat situation, we have them here. but usually the valve is before the meter so it can be shut off to replace or service the meter

Yes, after. The gate valve is before the meter.

I can drain using the sink just as easily.

 

[Krfjkm]

Great post!!

 

[DGersic]

The part I was least looking forward to. The sink and toilet connections are buried in the wall.



The mismatched tile normally hides under the sink as is a leftover from a remodel 30 years ago where we somehow ran out of floor tile but had extra shower tile.




The HF inspection camera helped confirm where the studs were as well as the drain before cutting.

The Performax oscillating tool seems like it would be nice for this, but the batteries ****. I got about a minute of run time before they shut down. It was a gift a few years ago. I either need better batteries or something in the M12 family.



Most of this cut was done with a knife.



Cleaning out the cavity after removing the galvanized supply lines and knocking out the old supports. Found some lead splatter and a bunch of razor blades.

Dad says he remembers old medicine cabinets with a “razor” slot for disposing of used blades. So be careful when cutting in to old bathroom walls.




New supply lines run in with drop ear 90* bends.




Another wall cut to remove and replace the toilet supply.





The toilet supply was the most difficult run of all. I spent several hours figuring out how I was going to fit this in. Where I needed it to end up, there wasn’t room to T in to the 3/4” cold supply. Because of other obstructions, I ended up going back a few joist cavities, putting the T in, drilling some more holes, and using a 90* to go up in to the wall.

The plastic 3/4” bend supports I started out with failed. They cracked in half from the pressure of the PEX tube. I found steel 90* at Lowes and had intended to use them with mounting tabs welded on somewhere else, but it turned out that they worked perfectly here. Nobody sells a 90* support with a mounting tab like this for some reason.

 

[DGersic]

Making custom 90* supports for 3/4” PEX.

 

[DGersic]

I had figured on four days before we’d have minimally functional plumbing. A sink (kitchen) and toilet. At this point, we’re looking pretty good.

Day 4 started with checking over all of my work. All threaded connections tight. All PEX joints inspected. A couple of 1/2” plugs installed because I don’t have the hose bib or ice maker connected yet. All valves closed.

I opened the gate valve at the meter, and checked the line to the first valve on my side of the meter. Slight leak at the threaded connection, solved with “a bit tighter”.

I put a bucket under the supply to the water softener and opened the valve. The result was unhappiness.




I was not expecting chocolate milk.

A quick check with goooogle says that I might have to flush the line. Having been off, but under pressure, for a few days, it could be gunk in the lines. This doesn’t seem right, but it’s Sunday, we’re checked out of the hotel, and we kinda need plumbing. So I tried a 15 minute flush. Then another 15. At about 12 GPM, that’s a lot of water.

And…




Still brown. Not a little brown, a LOT brown.



I made a new tub spout. And we went out for dinner. Nothing else I can do, it’s Sunday.

Monday morning, I got on the phone to the city, and they sent out a guy to look at it. After showing him what I have, and what I’m getting from it, he agreed that there was something not right here, and that it’s not something like a failed water softener or anything in my plumbing on my side of the meter. He suggested flushing the supply line.

So, we did that. He pulled the meter, and connected his super flusher to the supply side. This is a garden hose with a ball valve in line and a meter connector. He opened the gate valve, then cycled the ball valve open and closed a bunch of times. Eventually, after a lot more brown gunk, it ran clear.

The theory we’re going with is that I had such restricted flow with the 3/8” supply lines and rusted old galvanized that the 3/4” supply line never saw much flow, allowing it to gunk up. By opening it up to full flow, I got the gunk disturbed and moving. He finished the job. I’ll always have some iron in the water, the mains are cast iron, but the house supply is copper.

So far, this seems to be true. I’ve not seen any more gunk.

 

[DGersic]

With clear water, I went back to pressurizing the system and checking for leaks in sections. Cold was all good. On the hot side, I found a leak here at the sink supply.



That was fixed with a re-tape and cranking down tighter. I kinda hate iron pipe thread fittings for this.

Then I found a leak at the shower hot.



Re-doing that connection required cutting the PEX, removing and re-taping the fitting. Cranked it down a bit tighter this time, not easy to do while also pulling the shower valve back for clearanc. Then re-run the PEX supply from the previous joint downstairs, up through the floor, and reconnect.

And it’s still leaking.



See the drip? It’s not the pipe thread, it’s the valve body. It cracked along the casting seam.

Insert appropriate swearing here.

Insert more swearing at the discovery that Moen now uses MIP threads on their shower valves. FIP is out. I can order FIP, maybe get it in a week. Or I can buy MIP today.



The upper half of the hall cabinet never had an access hole. The shower riser was the one thing I really didn’t want to deal with. I was going to leave it. But, no, it has to come out. So, now there’s an access hole. I had to cut out the dado and nailed in shelves. Then cut through plywood and two layers of rock lath. Even with two shop vacs running, that made a lot of dust.

Temoving the old line, its supports and brackets, would have been a lot easier from the front. I got it all out from the back side. Then made up a new copper shower riser and got it located with the hole in the tile.



There isn’t room for a 90* bend on the cold side. So, some more time with my torch and I made some copper FIP / 90* / PEX adapters for the supply lines. Then re-made the tub spout parts.

More scrap 2x4 were cut up to make supports for the drop ear 90s. Attaching the 90 to the support, through the hole in the tile from the tub side was “fun”.

Once all mounted, it’s done. No leaks. System running again. And I was finally able to have a hot shower.

 

[earl84]

Wow, that's very impressive.

 

[Jackfre]

Ambitious and nicely done. When we bought the current house it too had the old galvanized pipe. it worked, but I knew it was a mess inside. My wife said don’t bother with it, it works. I can’t remember exactly why but I ended up cutting out a short section of the galv and showed her the condition of the inside. “You need to re-pipe the house…” I will say that the 3/8” copper is not a bad idea as far as hot water to the kitchen sink. Less delay in hot water delivery. I can deal with the wait at most fixtures, but the kitchen sink wait is maddening.
I’m a plumber, or at least was one in a previous life. I have the Milwaukee M12 expander and use the Uponor pipe. Simple and quick connection that is very secure.

 

[DGersic]

Cleaning up, I knocked this elbow in the floor. Rust chunks fell out. This alone justifies the work.

Still have work to do. I cut in a line for the ice maker, it needs to be run up in to the wall. I was going to run it through the floor, but there’s no space. The fridge goes all the way back to the wall. Looking at wall boxes, they’re all stud mounted. I was hoping for something like an electrical “old work” box.

Also need to finish the hot water passive return loop. The line is there, just have to do the copper connection to the water heater.

Then there’s a lot of cleanup. Getting everything out has an additional benefit, SWMBO is looking at a lot of stuff that was hiding in the back of the closet and buried on shelves in the storeroom and asking “why don’t we get rid of some of this?” So, we’ll be having a “get rid of stuff” party here.

 

[DGersic]

Ambitious and nicely done. When we bought the current house it too had the old galvanized pipe. it worked, but I knew it was a mess inside. My wife said don’t bother with it, it works. I can’t remember exactly why but I ended up cutting out a short section of the galv and showed her the condition of the inside. “You need to re-pipe the house…” I will say that the 3/8” copper is not a bad idea as far as hot water to the kitchen sink. Less delay in hot water delivery. I can deal with the wait at most fixtures, but the kitchen sink wait is maddening.
I’m a plumber, or at least was one in a previous life. I have the Milwaukee M12 expander and use the Uponor pipe. Simple and quick connection that is very secure.

3/8” to the kitchen sink would be ok. 3/8” as a trunk feeding the bathroom is not.

Secure, yeah. Getting one apart proves that.

 

[RyanE]

Excellent work!

I've got a 1960's ranch with an unfinished basement so I've got similar access as you have. My house was replumbed sometime in the 90's with Poly B so I'm looking at a full replumb in the near future as some of my fittings are showing signs of weeping. It also appears that the "plumbers" were probably amateurs and things are not very well done.

Thank you for documenting and sharing your work - it's a valuable resource!

 

[vavet]

I owned a house in SE Georgia 1999-2002. During that time, it sprang an underslab water leak.
The plumber knew exactly what it was.
He replumbed the whole house with PEX, like what you're doing. It was a single story on slab house, so he interrupted the line coming into the house from the meter, routed it overheat into the attic, and then distributed it to the two bathrooms, kitchen, and water heater from there. It was a 2 day job, plus the drywall.
The only downside after it was all done was how hot the cold tap water was after setting in the pipes in the attic all day.

The plumber told me it was a common thing in that area as the minerals in the water eroded the original copper plumbing. This happened to all houses in the area in the 20-25 year old range.
I wish I could've taken a couple days off work to help. I'm certain it wouldn't have saved me time/money, but it would've been interesting.

 

[mrpizza]

This is a timely post, I am about to do the same thing to my house in the next couple of months. I like those floor adapters you show, didn't know they existed

 

[thammel]

Wow - Great job! Lots of hard work and I know you'll be glad to be finished. So what's next, LOL! Replacing all drain with PVC? Running all new electric lines? I also do things like this. Like ridding my 2000 build home of PITA MWBC circuits. Looking forward to more cool jobs from you!

 

[DGersic]

Wow - Great job! Lots of hard work and I know you'll be glad to be finished. So what's next, LOL! Replacing all drain with PVC? Running all new electric lines? I also do things like this. Like ridding my 2000 build home of PITA MWBC circuits. Looking forward to more cool jobs from you!

I still need to finish the passive hot water recirculating circuit. That should be straightforward.

I need a wall box to install the ice maker. Nobody makes one for old work, and I’m not tearing up the sheetrock. Looking at modifying an Oatey box, or maybe 3D printing what I need.

Then there’s putting away all the stuff that got moved. Some of it will be going away.

SWMBO wants to remodel the bathroom. Not really looking forward to that, but it probably does need to be done.

I’m not touching the drains. That’s all cast, and working fine.

 

[DAVE VAN]

I still need to finish the passive hot water recirculating circuit. That should be straightforward.

I need a wall box to install the ice maker. Nobody makes one for old work, and I’m not tearing up the sheetrock. Looking at modifying an Oatey box, or maybe 3D printing what I need.

Then there’s putting away all the stuff that got moved. Some of it will be going away.

SWMBO wants to remodel the bathroom. Not really looking forward to that, but it probably does need to be done.

I’m not touching the drains. That’s all cast, and working fine.

The change I wish I had done was put a cutoff valve for thr ice maker in the back of a nearby cabinet. I hate pulling out the fridge to get to the ice maker cutoff. You are doing a great job. What a project!

 

[housewolf]

Nice job and and awesome job writing this up. Hopefully it’ll give confidence to others to tackle similar projects. IMO this is the biggest thing pex has going for it, it allows most homeowner/handymen to do an extensive repair or repipe the entire house in your case themselves using high quality material. I hope you get many years of trouble free service out of it. ***** about the tub valve, but it happens.

FWIW; my friend I’m piping the house won’t go for the pro pex tool. I’m a little disappointed and may just buy one myself. If I do, it’ll be after we do his house

 

[Jackfre]

3/8” to the kitchen sink would be ok. 3/8” as a trunk feeding the bathroom is not.

Secure, yeah. Getting one apart proves that.

Correct

 

[Stuart in MN]

Nice job. The one thing I would add is replacing that gate valve on the city side of the water meter with a ball valve.

 

[DGersic]

The change I wish I had done was put a cutoff valve for thr ice maker in the back of a nearby cabinet. I hate pulling out the fridge to get to the ice maker cutoff. You are doing a great job. What a project!

I’m debating doing something like this. I can’t do it in the cabinet, no room. But I could do a ball valve on the basement ceiling. I probably will. I also don’t like the idea of pulling the fridge to get to the shutoff.

 

[DGersic]

Nice job and and awesome job writing this up. Hopefully it’ll give confidence to others to tackle similar projects. IMO this is the biggest thing pex has going for it, it allows most homeowner/handymen to do an extensive repair or repipe the entire house in your case themselves using high quality material. I hope you get many years of trouble free service out of it. ***** about the tub valve, but it happens.

FWIW; my friend I’m piping the house won’t go for the pro pex tool. I’m a little disappointed and may just buy one myself. If I do, it’ll be after we do his house

So he’s going with crimp rings? There’s no way I’d do expansion with a hand squeezer.

Having now done it, I think compression would be easier. You can’t dry fit anything in expansion, and once it’s together, getting it apart isn’t easy.

 

[Meursault74]

Incredible job you've done there. Thanks for posting.

 

[housewolf]

So he’s going with crimp rings? There’s no way I’d do expansion with a hand squeezer.

Having now done it, I think compression would be easier. You can’t dry fit anything in expansion, and once it’s together, getting it apart isn’t easy.

Yes he’s doing the crimp rings. He’s one of my closest friends, we’ve been racing together for 20+ years, but he’s a hard headed sob.

 

[NUTTSGT]

So you stayed at a hotel because you ripped it all out at once ?

 

[DGersic]

So you stayed at a hotel because you ripped it all out at once ?

Exactly, yes.

I can’t think of another way to do this. Its not a project that could easily be done in pieces. I did keep the toilet working for as long as possible, refilling the tank with buckets that I filled before starting. Having a nightly shower at the hotel was a luxury. Also, having SWMBO out of the house and not having to answer “is it done yet?” worked well for both of us.

 

[ScottsGT]

Wow. Impressive work. I have 17 yo CPVC throughout my home and all runs are 1/2”. Great pressure at first, but drops off significantly after 5 seconds of running. Maybe one day I’ll upgrade to a PEX system.

You mentioned the M12 Oscillating tool, don’t use the larger,square bottom batteries with it. They are so heavy they were vibrating out of the back of the tool as I was using it. Switched over to the standard battery and no more problems.

Use to watch Holmes on homes and found it interesting how Canada code runs water lines. A central manifold with direct runs to each location. Also weird how they install the tub spigot at the bottom of shower stalls.
They also lay the breaker box horizontal too.

 

[DGersic]

Wow. Impressive work. I have 17 yo CPVC throughout my home and all runs are 1/2”. Great pressure at first, but drops off significantly after 5 seconds of running. Maybe one day I’ll upgrade to a PEX system.

You mentioned the M12 Oscillating tool, don’t use the larger,square bottom batteries with it. They are so heavy they were vibrating out of the back of the tool as I was using it. Switched over to the standard battery and no more problems.

Use to watch Holmes on homes and found it interesting how Canada code runs water lines. A central manifold with direct runs to each location. Also weird how they install the tub spigot at the bottom of shower stalls.
They also lay the breaker box horizontal too.

I considered doing a manifold and individual runs. Since almost everything is in one room, or directly above it, I decided to just do trunk and branch.

I like the idea of the manifold. Would probably do one one a new house, or a bigger one with more fixture locations.

 

[PolishX]

Nice work, as a Plumber for 24 years I'd like to say, if you are in a northern tier state you dont pipe straight cold water to your toilets you use an anti sweat valve and run a direct line. Also ditch the tradition standing water heaters and go with an on demand. We use them here in Alaska (I have one) and there is no issue with the Delta-T

 

[Chance]

No idea why the air duct is grounded.

Sometimes when there's no other path to ground, dry air moving through the duct will build up a static charge and when someone touches the register they get a quite a zap. I don't know if it can happen in a house with a humidifier in the air handler.

Dad says he remembers old medicine cabinets with a “razor” slot for disposing of used blades.

I remember those as a kid. I can remember thinking then that it didn't seem like such a smart idea.

Thanks for showing us how its done. I have been thinking of switching over to pex incrementally the next repair I have to do. I can sweat copper, but it is messy and time-consuming -- better to save the time for using on fixture issues like you had with the shower. Nice job.

 

[mmb617]

This thread brings back memories. Our house is over 100 years old and when we moved in the supply lines were all galvanized that had probably been installed when the place first got indoor plumbing. Water pressure was so bad that if you turned on water in the kitchen sink while running water upstairs the flow upstairs would stop.

I ended up replacing every single one of the water supply lines with copper since this was 40 years ago before pex was a thing. It's certainly a big job but makes a huge difference.

A few years ago I did some renovation that required water line work and I used pex. That stuff is the cat's ***.

 

[pbon]

We have a 140 year old house, but fortunately the previous owners had the wiring redone as well as much of the plumbing (copper for supply). I did have to replace a section of cast drain pipe that had rotted out. It was lead and okum that was a pain to remove since it was buried in the ground next to a granite foundation wall, limiting 360 degree access. At some point, the rest of it may have to come up and that won’t be fun.

Have done very little pex but would like to learn more because it is so easy to route. I like the fact that you can get some expansion out of it in the event of a freeze that would break copper. Theoretically that freeze inside should never happen, but reality with old houses in the Northeast is different from theory unless you completely redo plumbing, heating, and electric. Usually they are never completely redone unless you have gutted the house.

 

[DGersic]

We have a 140 year old house, but fortunately the previous owners had the wiring redone as well as much of the plumbing (copper for supply). I did have to replace a section of cast drain pipe that had rotted out. It was lead and okum that was a pain to remove since it was buried in the ground next to a granite foundation wall, limiting 360 degree access. At some point, the rest of it may have to come up and that won’t be fun.

Have done very little pex but would like to learn more because it is so easy to route. I like the fact that you can get some expansion out of it in the event of a freeze that would break copper. Theoretically that freeze inside should never happen, but reality with old houses in the Northeast is different from theory unless you completely redo plumbing, heating, and electric. Usually they are never completely redone unless you have gutted the house.

For your sewer, look in to having it sleeved or lined. We had ours done about 20 years ago and it’s holding up well. I have cast iron above ground, but it’s clay tile after it exits the foundation. It had moved and separate, leading to blockages. Getting the liner in was a lot of work, but a lot less than digging and runnning a whole new 150’ sewer line would have been.