ZMotorsports Shop Projects 2.0

[signcrafter]

Yeah, I was worried something would break while trying to unthread the flange. That was before I saw the crack to the underside of the flange. When I saw that I counted my lucky stars it didn't break off.



Over the course of the last year I have read probably every thread on the Monacoers.org forum, irv2.com forum and rvforum.net and everyone just keeps repeating the exact same answers; it's your vent on the roof or the water in the bowl is evaporating. Some tout the need to replace the AAC valves under the sinks, which I had already ruled out, but it's just people repeating everything they have heard, nothing specific or first hand. Forums can be frustrating because things just get repeated by people who want to sound smart, but so very few actually "get their hands dirty" and figure out the actual problem.

I've thought about posting my finding on those forums, but I'm sure I'll just get beat up and people telling me I'm crazy and that's not the problem. It will be like the air spring replacement all over again, so I'll just keep it to myself and my fellow Garage Journal peeps, all five of them......







Scott, I'm not sure it's from actual movement because the tanks are pretty well mounted where there is not much movement at all and the flange is screwed directly to the floor of the coach. Also, our coach being of the semi-monocoque construction, there is not any movement in the floors and walls as there are on say a coach build using the hung wall design. I have no proof, but it could have been cracked during installation for all I know and being such a short piece of pipe, from the flange to the top of the black tank is only about 8 inches, it could be that there just isn't enough space for any movement. It's hard to say, but I will be cognitive of the position and how tight I tighten it upon assembly.




You know the old saying Ryan, if the only tool you have is a hammer, everything is a nail. Well, I've got the TIG welder, so why not? Plus I haven't welded in a few weeks and needed the practice.

I had to look up semi-monocoque, interesting read and learned something new. I was going to ask if there would be any benefit to cutting 1/4" or so from the middle of the pipe and adding a rubber fernco fitting to allow a little movement or vibration but if there isn't any movement that would just be introducing another potential failure spot. Wonder if those tanks expand and contract at all with temperature changes? I wouldn't think it would crack like that in that spot from over tightening but maybe.

 

[zmotorsports]

I had to look up semi-monocoque, interesting read and learned something new. I was going to ask if there would be any benefit to cutting 1/4" or so from the middle of the pipe and adding a rubber fernco fitting to allow a little movement or vibration but if there isn't any movement that would just be introducing another potential failure spot. Wonder if those tanks expand and contract at all with temperature changes? I wouldn't think it would crack like that in that spot from over tightening but maybe.

Scott, the only reason why I mentioned and thought of overtightening potentially being the issue, is because the flange was solid on the subfloor when I removed the screws and one of the reasons I had such a hard time unthreading it was because not only was I fighting the thread sealant on the threads, but also the friction between the underside of the flange and subfloor surface. If the installer kept tightening it during installation, based on the threads, the stress would be under the flange as the threads being pulled down would try to pull the flange apart, basically the flange was put under tension and where that crack is at is really the only reason I had to think it was installer error. I may be wrong.

 

[ScepterToad]

Over the course of the last year I have read probably every thread on the Monacoers.org forum, irv2.com forum and rvforum.net and everyone just keeps repeating the exact same answers; it's your vent on the roof or the water in the bowl is evaporating. Some tout the need to replace the AAC valves under the sinks, which I had already ruled out, but it's just people repeating everything they have heard, nothing specific or first hand. Forums can be frustrating because things just get repeated by people who want to sound smart, but so very few actually "get their hands dirty" and figure out the actual problem.

I've thought about posting my finding on those forums, but I'm sure I'll just get beat up and people telling me I'm crazy and that's not the problem. It will be like the air spring replacement all over again, so I'll just keep it to myself and my fellow Garage Journal peeps, all five of them......

Hey there's more than 5 of us!

And, I think you hit the nail on the head. I can't count how many threads I've seen where folks have this EXACT issue and can't figure it out. I for one will file this away in my head and if I ever have this issue, it might be the first thing I check, not the last.

Also, that flange tool is awesome!!

 

[zmotorsports]

Hey there's more than 5 of us!

And, I think you hit the nail on the head. I can't count how many threads I've seen where folks have this EXACT issue and can't figure it out. I for one will file this away in my head and if I ever have this issue, it might be the first thing I check, not the last.

Also, that flange tool is awesome!!

Thanks Keith. I may post it over on the Monacoers forum as they seem to be a little more like-minded and hands on, but I'm still undecided. I just catch so much criticism over on the other RV forums that I seldom visit them anymore. My coach's modifications and repairs thread is on irv2.com so I try to keep that current, but other than that I don't participate much because of past criticism. I try to help others and just get beat up for what I suggest, too many keyboard warriors for me.

 

[steves_001]

Good find on the flange crack! Smoke machine for the win again!
I have to say I’m impressed that you can readily profess your love for your wife in a public way like here. It takes a big hearted man to say those things in a group of mostly guys. It’s nice to see and I think most of us feel the same way but maybe will not as easily admit it. Anyway, kudos to you and may you have a long and healthy life together.

 

[zmotorsports]

Good find on the flange crack! Smoke machine for the win again!
I have to say I’m impressed that you can readily profess your love for your wife in a public way like here. It takes a big hearted man to say those things in a group of mostly guys. It’s nice to see and I think most of us feel the same way but maybe will not as easily admit it. Anyway, kudos to you and may you have a long and healthy life together.

Thank you. I'm not ashamed to say I'm a better man because of my wife. To be honest, I wish there was more of that in our society these days. We're a team and I don't think I'd be where I am if the good Lord didn't bless me with my wife.

 

[steves_001]

Amen Mike, Amen.

 

[signcrafter]

Scott, the only reason why I mentioned and thought of overtightening potentially being the issue, is because the flange was solid on the subfloor when I removed the screws and one of the reasons I had such a hard time unthreading it was because not only was I fighting the thread sealant on the threads, but also the friction between the underside of the flange and subfloor surface. If the installer kept tightening it during installation, based on the threads, the stress would be under the flange as the threads being pulled down would try to pull the flange apart, basically the flange was put under tension and where that crack is at is really the only reason I had to think it was installer error. I may be wrong.

That makes sense Mike.

 

[tarbellb]

Nice job! That's one of those jobs that for me takes a lot of mental fortitude to jump into.

Your wife and her nose are going to feel very justified when you show her that cracked flange

But.... no more blaming the "faulty" bathroom when you let one slip

 

[bugnut]

Mike great work, thanks for sharing.

I truly appreciate the sentiments you expressed. You are not alone.

Thank you. I'm not ashamed to say I'm a better man because of my wife. To be honest, I wish there was more of that in our society these days. We're a team and I don't think I'd be where I am if the good Lord didn't bless me with my wife.

 

[zmotorsports]

That makes sense Mike.

I hoped I had expressed my "thinking" correctly Scott. I could be way off in left field, but it just seemed awfully tight to the floor when I removed the flange and then seeing the crack I couldn't figure out how it could have cracked in that location with so little chance for movement.

If anyone else has any ideas I would be open to hearing them. I don't like reassembling things until I am confident I know the reason they failed. But I think as long as I don't overtighten the new flange and stop when it makes like contact with the floor and the screw holes align, I should be spot on. Besides, it's the gasket to the flange that creates the seal, not necessarily the flange to the floor, so not sure why it was so dang tight.

Nice job! That's one of those jobs that for me takes a lot of mental fortitude to jump into.

Your wife and her nose are going to feel very justified when you show her that cracked flange

But.... no more blaming the "faulty" bathroom when you let one slip

Thank you. I had no problem really diving into the job as far as removing the toilet because I thought for certain I was going to find a failed gasket, I mean there's only about 10 inches between the tank and the flange and I knew the bowl seal was fine because it held water, so the only possible failure point was the floor gasket which was between the tank and the bowl. However, once I removed the toilet to find the seal in good condition I was stumped. I'm not gonna lie, that's where I stalled out for a couple of days trying to think of where the problem could lie. At one point I was disappointed in myself to even tearing into the project because I saw nothing out of the norm, but on the flip side I really didn't want to reassemble it without finding something awry. I was so excited when I found the crack just to confirm I had finally found the issue.

When I showed my wife she was shocked when she saw the cracked flange and asked how long that had been cracked. I asked her how long she's been smelling the odor as her nose is more sensitive than mine. I thought it was just this past travel season, but now I'm wondering if it's been a little longer than that. Besides, she's the one who gets up to use the restroom when we're driving, not me. Bad things happen when I get up and use the restroom with the coach in motion.

Mike great work, thanks for sharing.

I truly appreciate the sentiments you expressed. You are not alone.

Thank you Joel. Much appreciated. We're fortunate to have good women on our side.

 

[zmotorsports]

Well, the first mow of the season is in the books. For mid-March I am quite pleased with how it looks. Not fully green yet, but much closer than in years past. Granted we did have a pretty mild winter though.








It was so nice to be able to kick the shop doors open while I mowed the lawns. When the wife arrived home I explained my plan for the back yard and she eagerly agreed. Now the work begins.

 

[ScepterToad]

It was so nice to be able to kick the shop doors open while I mowed the lawns. When the wife arrived home I explained my plan for the back yard and she eagerly agreed. Now the work begins.

Finally getting a pool huh?

 

[zmotorsports]

Finally getting a pool huh?

Oh hell no Keith. Just a minor "tweak" to the back yard, nothing of that magnitude, nor headache.

 

[zmotorsports]

As I was "fluffing" my grass and blowing the front sidewalk off last night after mowing, I did have a neighbor stop by to compliment me on our yard and ask how I keep it so green and manicured. He then asked if the back yard was as well-kept as the front, so I walked him through the side gate and let him have a look for himself. He asked if there is ever a blade out of place. I know he was being facetious, but I still took it as a compliment. They only moved in last year to the house across to the east of us so they only see what it looks like now, not the mess the house and property was 9-1/2 years ago when we bought it.

 

[ntsqd]

Nothing is perfectly rigid, so even if the coach body is bolted directly to the frame with no rubber mounts between them, there is still going to be some relative motion due to flex. I've no experience with how all of that assembles, but my inclination would be to 'float' the toilet or one of the joints and let it move just a little bit.

 

[tarbellb]

Nothing is perfectly rigid, so even if the coach body is bolted directly to the frame with no rubber mounts between them, there is still going to be some relative motion due to flex. I've no experience with how all of that assembles, but my inclination would be to 'float' the toilet or one of the joints and let it move just a little bit.

Thought the same, with a heavy dynamic load attached to the rigid flange piece it seems like having the ability for it to "slip" may prove beneficial. Perhaps a wax or Vaseline type seal combined with the overlap joint would be enough?

 

[PugetDude]

Mike, my money was on that smell turning out to be that giant bean burrito you ate in Wyoming.

 

[Atlascycle]

Mike,
It is refreshing to hear you comments about your wife, I meet mine in the early Ninety's, we were both working at Walmart at the time. She has excellent tastes in everything, but her taste in men is questionable. I always joke that she is living proof that it is possible to get some awesome things at Walmart, I am Proof that you get what you pay for....

Jason

 

[zmotorsports]

Mike, my money was on that smell turning out to be that giant bean burrito you ate in Wyoming.

Oh trust me Scott, I know better than to eat a bean burrito when traveling, especially in Wyoming.

Mike,
It is refreshing to hear you comments about your wife, I meet mine in the early Ninety's, we were both working at Walmart at the time. She has excellent tastes in everything, but her taste in men is questionable. I always joke that she is living proof that it is possible to get some awesome things at Walmart, I am Proof that you get what you pay for....

Jason

Thank you and good for you finding a good one.

People don't believe me when I tell them I met my wife dragging the boulevard in 1987, but that is exactly where and how we met. My wife love's telling people that story by the way. Had we gone to the same High School together there is no way she would have noticed me as we ran it completely different groups. Well, let me rephrase that, she ran with the cool kids, in her High School, I really didn't run with any particular group and was a bit of a loner. I lived on a farm and did some rodeoing so I ran with the "cowboy group" a little, but was so heavily involved in automotive, I found myself with the "parking lot crew" as well.

 

[zmotorsports]

Nothing is perfectly rigid, so even if the coach body is bolted directly to the frame with no rubber mounts between them, there is still going to be some relative motion due to flex. I've no experience with how all of that assembles, but my inclination would be to 'float' the toilet or one of the joints and let it move just a little bit.

Thought the same, with a heavy dynamic load attached to the rigid flange piece it seems like having the ability for it to "slip" may prove beneficial. Perhaps a wax or Vaseline type seal combined with the overlap joint would be enough?

I wouldn't say everything is literally "solid", just that due to the construction of our coach it has less flex or movement than many of the manufactured coaches on the road. There is still going to be expansion and contraction and movement, albeit minor with this design. One way you can tell how well a coach floor is structured is by the type of flooring used. The lesser built ones will never run tile or granite on the flooring due to flexing and almost guaranteed cracks. The higher end ones that are either built on the Prevost chassis, or custom chassis using some form of semi-monocoque design or bridge style chassis will be the ones that have tile or granite flooring. Our Monaco on the semi-monocoque has tile throughout the entrance, galley, hallway, bathroom and two sections in the bedroom, also 24+ years old with 150k miles so it has a pretty good track record of being about as solid of a coach as can be, without being "perfectly solid".

That being said, there should be enough flex or give in the top of the black tank where the tube connects that it should be able to account for any miniscule amount of up/down movement. I am still of the belief that it was overtightened upon assembly based on the friction in contact with the floor when trying to remove it and the fact that once I removed the 8 screws securing the flange to the floor, there was absolutely no movement at all, not even laterally it was so tight to the subfloor.

 

[T444e]

Mike, great job on finding the leak. Some leakes are a pain to find, even water leaks sometimes don't show themselves until the conditions are just right. Your flange wrench is much nicer than mine. I typically use a piece of 13/16 strut with a pair of cap screws and nuts.

 

[Mr.zippy]

What's the plan on the backyard Mike? Swimming pool is out, maybe a large fountain with carp, and minnows?

 

[gearhead1960]

....my vote is a large playset for the kid...

 

[545_days]

Mike,
I think the most likely source of any flex is the blackwater tank itself, especially if it is anywhere near full and you hit the brakes. All the liquid tries to keep on moving and the force against the side of the tank is significant enough to flex the tank. The fact that the floor is bolted to the frame means any flex in the tank acts directly against the flange.

 

[CGarage]

I was able to get a little more accomplished on the Jeep JL that's in my shop last night.

I refilled the transfer case with proper fluid and amount. Then replaced the oil filter on the engine and refilled with the proper amount of oil and then tackled the transmission.

Dropping the pan at the rear to allow most of the fluid to drain without making "too big of a mess".


Pan removed and a thorough inspection and looking over of the wiring and components.


Pan sent to the solvent tank for a thorough cleaning.


On most Jeep/Chrysler products the pans are plastic/composite with built in filters. Thankfully on the Wranglers, they still use a steel transmission pan and the filter is bolted to the inside of the pan. Filter and magnets removed and cleaned, ready to accept the new filter and gasket.


New filter and gasket installed. The filter comes with new nuts and they should NOT be torqued down tight, thus allowing the filter to "float" in the pan slightly. The nuts should be snugged down and backed off 1/2 turn allowing the filter to self-locate into the pickup bore when installing the pan.


But the pan cannot be installed until a coating of Sil-Glyde is applied to the O-ring on the filter.


After wiping the pan rails on the transmission down, the pan is installed. You should feel a definitive feeling as the filter pickup and O-ring snap into the pickup bore when installing the pan, then start the fasteners. The fasteners are then all torqued in a center outward sequence and paint marked once all are at the final torque spec.




Stay tuned for a few more pictures.

Why not add a drain plug???

 

[madison069]

Yard looks good Mike!
I'm hoping to get some topsoil delivered to the house soon as I need to put some grass seed down on the bare fill area. Maybe I'll have a yard like Mike in the future.

 

[zmotorsports]

What's the plan on the backyard Mike? Swimming pool is out, maybe a large fountain with carp, and minnows?

Nothing that extreme. Just a little minor "tweaking" of the landscaping around the house and shop.

Why not add a drain plug???

Because the owner wouldn't pay for a drain plug to be added. Besides, in this application it was easy enough to remove all of the pan bolts except the front and let it droop to drain. This was one of the easier ones to service, I've done some that no matter what you do you end up taking an ATF shower.

Yard looks good Mike!
I'm hoping to get some topsoil delivered to the house soon as I need to put some grass seed down on the bare fill area. Maybe I'll have a yard like Mike in the future.

Thanks Cody. I'm having some rock delivered in the next day or two and will be doing a little modification to the areas around the back and side of the house as well as the shop. Should look a bit different in the next couple of weeks, I'm not looking forward to wheelbarrowing 4 yards of rock around though.....

 

[ScepterToad]

In the late 90's, when I was a young man, I had a girlfriend when I was stationed at Luke that had grandparents in Sun City. One weekend we redid all the gravel on the lot. 20 ton. I've not moved gravel like that since, and don't plan to. It's not fun.

 

[zmotorsports]

In the late 90's, when I was a young man, I had a girlfriend when I was stationed at Luke that had grandparents in Sun City. One weekend we redid all the gravel on the lot. 20 ton. I've not moved gravel like that since, and don't plan to. It's not fun.

Yeah, I'm not looking forward to it Keith. I don't know why I can't just leave things alone. Project creep is alive and well around my place this year for some reason.

 

[ctandc72]

People don't believe me when I tell them I met my wife dragging the boulevard in 1987, but that is exactly where and how we met. My wife love's telling people that story by the way. Had we gone to the same High School together there is no way she would have noticed me as we ran it completely different groups. Well, let me rephrase that, she ran with the cool kids, in her High School, I really didn't run with any particular group and was a bit of a loner. I lived on a farm and did some rodeoing so I ran with the "cowboy group" a little, but was so heavily involved in automotive, I found myself with the "parking lot crew" as well.

That's funny. I grew up in a really small town. This was late 80s. We'd hit all the known cruising spots (some an hour or more away) in my '67 Chevelle. It wasn't pretty. "Which primer color is it this week?" - that was the running joke from my old boss back then. Often we'd troll the 'downtown' cruising spots / parking lots to find the cars that were considered fast and hypothetically get them to race for maybe more than bragging rights.

Hey, I was poor - times were tough and parts and gas didn't pay for itself.

But I met several people at these cruise spots / parking lots / drag strips that I still keep in touch with today that I likely would have NEVER interacted with if it wasn't for the cars...

 

[zmotorsports]

That's funny. I grew up in a really small town. This was late 80s. We'd hit all the known cruising spots (some an hour or more away) in my '67 Chevelle. It wasn't pretty. "Which primer color is it this week?" - that was the running joke from my old boss back then. Often we'd troll the 'downtown' cruising spots / parking lots to find the cars that were considered fast and hypothetically get them to race for maybe more than bragging rights.

Hey, I was poor - times were tough and parts and gas didn't pay for itself.

But I met several people at these cruise spots / parking lots / drag strips that I still keep in touch with today that I likely would have NEVER interacted with if it wasn't for the cars...

Similar. I met quite a few people street racing back in the day. We would "tease" from light to light, but if it was serious we had a straight section about 5 miles out of town that headed straight west and we had some marks painted on the asphalt marking 1/4 mile. If **** got serious we'd head to west 12th street out towards "Little Mountain" and take care of business.

There were some fast vehicles back in those days, but no one expected a 4-wheel drive truck to be fast, so I had a bit of an advantage right off the bat because people didn't expect it.

Funny this came up, because a few weeks ago Dustin from Toolbox Tours did a video on a guy and I recognized him as soon as I saw him on the video, although we've both aged a bit since then. The gentleman's name was Dave B in Dustin's video and I told my wife, I know him, or rather he beat me a few times back in the 80's. He drove a white Jeep CJ5 with a small block Chevy in it, called Casper. That thing was fast as hell. He worked at a small automotive shop on Pennsylvania Ave, in West Ogden back then and now I hear he owns it as he bought it from his previous employer. I keep telling myself I should stop in and say hello, but I doubt he'd remember me as it's been a long time.

 

[LXCam]

I'm having some rock delivered in the next day or two

Ok Mike, admit it. Between Dan, Scott and myself we’re turning you into a rock convert huh??

 

[Mr.zippy]

We move away the rocks, haul in nice top soil, flatten said soil smooth as a baby's ****, plant grass seed, nature it into golf course grass, then remove said soil and turf, only to haul in more rocks. It's a cycle!

 

[madison069]

We move away the rocks, haul in nice top soil, flatten said soil smooth as a baby's ****, plant grass seed, nature it into golf course grass, then remove said soil and turf, only to haul in more rocks. It's a cycle!

But it wasn’t the right kind of rock when first started!

 

[ntsqd]

I think you should track down Casper's owner. Even if he doesn't remember you, which I strongly doubt, he'll remember those days. Maybe it'll be a dud or maybe you'll make a connection. Unless, of course, what you remember about him is that he's not worth the time.

 

[zmotorsports]

Ok Mike, admit it. Between Dan, Scott and myself we’re turning you into a rock convert huh??

We move away the rocks, haul in nice top soil, flatten said soil smooth as a baby's ****, plant grass seed, nature it into golf course grass, then remove said soil and turf, only to haul in more rocks. It's a cycle!

It sure feels like it.

This is "another" one of the projects where scope creep came into the picture. I noticed that last summer after replacing some sod on the south side of the house, right under our master bedroom, that the sod just didn't take off and I have had a tough time with grass in this area ever since we moved in. I think I tracked it down to the heat coming off the stucco basically cooking the sod for the first couple feet from the side of the house.

I reached out to the contractor who I have used in the past to do some ornamental curbing and they met with me to ensure me they could match my existing curbing. With that the area I was wanting to add curbing was only about 20' and they have a 100' minimum. The lady told me they could do 20', but it would be the same price as a hundred feet. So when the wife got home last week I ran an idea past her about cutting the sod out on the east side of the house as well as the east side of the shop and adding curbing and rock. That would be me right at the 100' minimum, but would obviously require a LOT more work moving rock around, scope creep.

The area on the east side of the house is the area that I rolled up the sod last fall and hauled in a yard of fill dirt to level out the area around the foundation, so yeah Cody, I am basically doing just that, hauling in fill dirt, leveling and smoothing like a baby's ****, laying the sod back out and have it grow in beautifully, only to now cut it our and haul in rock..

My thinking was that by doing this I would negate the issues with the sod being cooked from the hot stucco in the warmer months and more importantly, I would be removing all sod and therefore sprinklers from around the foundation of the house and shop. This will mean nowhere on my property will I have sprinklers or sod up against a foundation of either the house or shop, which is proven to have benefits.

I was able to match the rock to what I hauled in 9 years ago. The company I purchased it from only gets one large load a year because it comes in from out of state and when I checked with them last week they had just gotten their one delivery for the year. Of course it's the most expensive rock they have, but that's the one the wife fell in love with 9 years ago, so that's what will be going in around the house and shop.

 

[ntsqd]

Aren't there advantages to not having sod right up to the wall from a snow or frost perspective?

I know that having drainage away from the foundation is a good idea. And not having anything growing under the eves is a sound wildfire strategy, but that's more about bushes and trees than grass or sod.

 

[zmotorsports]

Aren't there advantages to not having sod right up to the wall from a snow or frost perspective?

I know that having drainage away from the foundation is a good idea. And not having anything growing under the eves is a sound wildfire strategy, but that's more about bushes and trees than grass or sod.

Yes Thom, that's exactly what I was stating about the benefits of not having any sod or sprinklers up against my foundations.

I probably should have done that from the beginning, but here we are 9+ years later removing the sod and sprinklers that I installed.

 

[ntsqd]

Ah! I was thinking about it only from a water saturation when warm perspective and not thinking in terms of frozen saturation.

Water is really a rather remarkable working agent. Freeze it and you can break rocks and concrete with it, get it really hot and you can move 1000's of tons of freight with it.