ZMotorsports Shop Projects 2.0

[Chipm]

Another one is diagnostics. I never used to charge for it if you had me do the work. But with the costs of the tools needed to diagnose things these days I had to start charging for that also.

I absolutely charge for diagnostics. A busted coolant hose is one thing, but if tools and SI come out there is going to be a charge unless I don't solve your problem. The main value you bring as a technician is the knowledge needed to fix a problem, not the ability to turn wrenches. Why would you give away your most valuable asset for free?

The idea of not charging for diagnostics is, in my experience, related to the bad reputation the car repair industry has for not fixing things right. Customer doesn't want to pay for diag, shop is no good at it, so the part that fixes it 70% of the time is thrown in and doesn't fix it. Guess what? Shop makes money installing the wrong part AND the right part next.

I think the car should be fixed right the first time, but doing so requires knowledge, tools, and information. None of those are free, and all of them have to be capitalized.

When you explain it properly (and politely) customers understand. The ones who don't are probably not the ones you want as customers.

 

[jbmatth]

I'm a day behind, but congrats on the new granddaughter Mike. I am 1 of 6 boys and I had two daughters, I was worried to say the least, but for the first couple years the only difference is how you change a diaper. It gets a lot more complicated after that.

JB

 

[signcrafter]

I absolutely charge for diagnostics. A busted coolant hose is one thing, but if tools and SI come out there is going to be a charge unless I don't solve your problem. The main value you bring as a technician is the knowledge needed to fix a problem, not the ability to turn wrenches. Why would you give away your most valuable asset for free?

The idea of not charging for diagnostics is, in my experience, related to the bad reputation the car repair industry has for not fixing things right. Customer doesn't want to pay for diag, shop is no good at it, so the part that fixes it 70% of the time is thrown in and doesn't fix it. Guess what? Shop makes money installing the wrong part AND the right part next.

I think the car should be fixed right the first time, but doing so requires knowledge, tools, and information. None of those are free, and all of them have to be capitalized.

When you explain it properly (and politely) customers understand. The ones who don't are probably not the ones you want as customers.

I agree with you. I started fixing cars because I was poor and needed to fix my stuff and liked wrenching. I never meant for it to be a business venture. But over the years as people learned I knew a little they asked me to fix their vehicles. I took on jobs in order to make money to buy new tools. So I never ran it as a business. If I could make a few bucks for tools great. But over many years that mentality has changed.

 

[rd65]

For people running a legit, above board business keep in mind that some states/localities prohibit charging for shop supplies on a percentage basis. Billing for diagnostics, absolutely. We would also require a separate signature stating that we disassemble something to diagnose/estimate issue and you did not have repairs done, you got a box of parts - we did not reassemble the broken item. AND keep diag charges within reason, I worked at shop that wanted to charge 2 hours for all diag. Manager told me I had to charge a PWC owner 2 hours to tell him he had a dead battery. That didnt happen. I worked at that shop for 2 weeks, got fired for going to lunch with the new manager at my previous shop. GM called me and wanted me back, I declined.

 

[ctandc72]

Around here there are a ton of 'mobile mechanics' advertising on Facebook etc. I'm not saying all of them are hacks, some of them are probably great mechanics. But a while back a co-worker had one these guys who advertises on Facebook come out to his parking garage during the work day and do a brake job (pads and rotors) on his car. It was significantly cheaper than the dealer quoted him. That's not all that surprising - but when I asked my co-worker "What kind of parts did he use?" - He just gave me a blank look. After that I changed the subject.

 

[zmotorsports]

Mike, I never used to think about a shop fee 10 years ago when consumables were cheap. Just kept it simple and maybe added a few bucks here and there to the final price to cover some of the chemicals, sealants, rags, rolocs, etc. same with construction jobs, if I was pricing a drywall job I didn't take the time to figure in screws and drywall tape, bits, etc. Just figured out the bigger materials and rounded up here and there if needed. I'm probably not the best business minded person and don't always account for everything. But now with the price of everything way up there I've learned to take the time to add in most of that little stuff because it can add up fast. A simple brake job you have a can or two of brake clean at 5 bucks a can, consumables to clean the hub and rim and also the slide pins and bores and then the bracket where the hardware goes. If you don't add that into every job and say you run out of everything at once and have to re supply then you are out a bunch of money real quick. Think the last brake lube I bought was over 20 bucks. So I've thrown a number onto every job I do, sometimes it's just a dollar amount or percentage or if I know it's going to take a case of brake cleaner to clean up an engine from a neglected oil leak I'll add that right into the parts.

I think the easiest way would be how most shops just add a flat fee or percentage to every estimate for shop fees. But then I also think that can give a bad perception to some on some jobs, can't think of an example off the top of my head but something simple that may not require any consumables that might make someone question why it's on their bill. Your way of just raising hourly rate to include shop supplies is a good way. Most of the time the people I do work for don't question things. In the end those costs are put somewhere to get to the final total of the bill. Just some people don't like to see it written a certain way.

Another one is diagnostics. I never used to charge for it if you had me do the work. But with the costs of the tools needed to diagnose things these days I had to start charging for that also.

One more thing that I was thinking about the last few weeks is specialty tools. I've always had the mindset that I buy the tools with the profits from the repair jobs. But I've started noticing that everything is requiring me to buy new specialty tools. My daughters fusion 1.5L had a valve cover leak a few weeks ago. The HP fuel rail goes over the top of the valve cover and has to be pulled. The injectors stuck in the head so they make a special puller to get them out. Then a special tool set to re seal the injectors. Then while I was in there I changed the timing belt which required an interesting set of timing tools. Luckily they sell Chinese knock off tools for these jobs. I'm not a fan of cheap tools, especially for things like timing and engine. But if I bought the rotunda or OTC tools it would have been well over a grand just in specialty tools I may or may not ever use for that particular engine. Have a 2.3L to re seal timing cover coming up and that requires its own set of specialty tools to do the job correctly. Also have a axle seal leak to do on a Transit connect with the 2.5L and Ford says to change the bushing in the transmission output. This requires special tools to pull and install the bushing. There are some that have used other tools and I may try that also. I've started included some or all of specialty tools like this to jobs. Kind of ***** for the first person because they get charged for all the tools but if I do another job on same vehicle and already have the tools then it's cheaper for that second job. Not sure there a perfect way to bill for things like this but I can't eat the costs of tools I have to buy for a specific job and most likely will only use one time when every job seems to need a special tool to do correctly anymore.

Scott, up until a few years ago I handled diagnostics like this; if I diagnosed your car and you had me perform the work, I didn't charge for it. But if I diagnosed it and the client chose not to repair, take it somewhere else or fix it themselves, then I chose for it based on time.


These days I charge for diagnostics and then update the client with the status as far as where we're at $$ into the diagnostics and roughly how much to repair after that.

Things like specialty tools for a one-time job, those are generally passed onto the client, those that are just the first of those jobs and I see more in the future, I will generally absorb some of that initial outlay for the tool. I have had to do this much more in the machining work for such things like a specific tap or die, or a gear cutter than in the automotive repair work.

I absolutely charge for diagnostics. A busted coolant hose is one thing, but if tools and SI come out there is going to be a charge unless I don't solve your problem. The main value you bring as a technician is the knowledge needed to fix a problem, not the ability to turn wrenches. Why would you give away your most valuable asset for free?

The idea of not charging for diagnostics is, in my experience, related to the bad reputation the car repair industry has for not fixing things right. Customer doesn't want to pay for diag, shop is no good at it, so the part that fixes it 70% of the time is thrown in and doesn't fix it. Guess what? Shop makes money installing the wrong part AND the right part next.

I think the car should be fixed right the first time, but doing so requires knowledge, tools, and information. None of those are free, and all of them have to be capitalized.

When you explain it properly (and politely) customers understand. The ones who don't are probably not the ones you want as customers.

Agreed. The client is not solely paying for the actual repair, they are basically renting your tools and knowledge and they need to understand that they can pay for diagnostics and have the CORRECT part replaced or work completed, OR they can pay a parts changer to shoot the parts cannon at it. I have seen too many people, especially lately, ruin good cars by throwing a lot of OEM parts away that there was nothing wrong with them, only to shoot the parts cannon at a car and install a lot of lesser quality parts at it.

I'm a day behind, but congrats on the new granddaughter Mike. I am 1 of 6 boys and I had two daughters, I was worried to say the least, but for the first couple years the only difference is how you change a diaper. It gets a lot more complicated after that.

JB

Thank you JB.

 

[Chipm]

Around here there are a ton of 'mobile mechanics' advertising on Facebook etc. I'm not saying all of them are hacks, some of them are probably great mechanics.

I am familiar with one around here who charges a bit more than most of the good independent repair shops, similar to dealer prices. If you want to book an oil change he is eight weeks out.

 

[signcrafter]

Scott, up until a few years ago I handled diagnostics like this; if I diagnosed your car and you had me perform the work, I didn't charge for it. But if I diagnosed it and the client chose not to repair, take it somewhere else or fix it themselves, then I chose for it based on time.


These days I charge for diagnostics and then update the client with the status as far as where we're at $$ into the diagnostics and roughly how much to repair after that.

Things like specialty tools for a one-time job, those are generally passed onto the client, those that are just the first of those jobs and I see more in the future, I will generally absorb some of that initial outlay for the tool. I have had to do this much more in the machining work for such things like a specific tap or die, or a gear cutter than in the automotive repair work.





Agreed. The client is not solely paying for the actual repair, they are basically renting your tools and knowledge and they need to understand that they can pay for diagnostics and have the CORRECT part replaced or work completed, OR they can pay a parts changer to shoot the parts cannon at it. I have seen too many people, especially lately, ruin good cars by throwing a lot of OEM parts away that there was nothing wrong with them, only to shoot the parts cannon at a car and install a lot of lesser quality parts at it.







Thank you JB.

I used to do diagnostics for free and hope to get the work. After getting burned a bunch of times I started charging like you, if I diagnosed it and you didn't want me to fix it then I charged a fee. When I started charging for diagnostics is when I lost a bunch of people that had been bringing me their vehicles, and it was a great thing. All the ones that just wanted to know what was wrong but didn't want to pay anything. It weeded out all the bad customers and I actually noticed I got busier with less headaches. But now I will charge an hour of time usually no matter what unless it's a special case. I feel that's fair for a few reason. Mainly I don't do this all the time and don't have the experience like a shop that does it all day everyday. So I take my time and usually have to learn as I go on finding the problem. Read up in theory and operation and stuff like that and think about my next steps. I don't think it's fair to charge for my learning if it takes longer then a more experienced tech. But we do deserve something for our time.

The specialty tools is something that has had me thinking lately. Used to be specialty tools were things like ball joint press or a special tool that could be used on multiple vehicles or sometimes a vehicle had a special tool to make the job easier. But lately it seems like every job I run into I'm ordering tools just for that job on that particular vehicle with that particular engine. In theory a busy shop will probably run into that repair again. But for me I don't usually see the same job more then once or twice. At first I didn't think it was fair to pass along the whole cost of new tools but lately I've been passing most of not all of it along. I'm the end we have to make it worth our time.

 

[Swanny1953]

Mike, congrats in advance on your granddaughter. There's nothing like the love of a little girl - ask me how I know!! I'll be looking forward to updates on how easily she wraps you around her little finger! You think that little mini-me is the best thing since sliced bread - just wait!!

 

[Jgaz]

I fought the diagnoses issue with various service managers my whole dealership career. I felt as if I should be paid at least .5 hours for diagnostics and ordering the correct part if one was needed.

Our dealership was very rural. It was no surprise that many of our customers could perform the repair or install the part once they were told or shown what was needed.

Even when the repair order was written and left open they would pick up the part and ignore the open R.O.
I was never able to get paid as the dealership wouldn’t bill the customer the few times there was even a repair order written.

 

[madison069]

I mentioned that there may be a slight chance that she'll have a badass car in High School.....

Just go ahead and have the Camaro ready for her as you know that's gonna be that grandbaby's new car in high school.

That's one of the reasons I want to swap the old 350 out of the 79 Camaro for a LS engine and transmission combo, to make it more drivable for my youngest daughter when she wants to drive it. But I've been toying around the idea of picking up a newer sport car that I can fix up and have it ready for her when it's time. I don't want her to be impressed with some boy and his hotrod because she doesn't have one.

 

[bryson]

<snip>

I don't want her to be impressed with some boy and his hotrod because she doesn't have one.

That's one of the most "dad" things I've ever heard. I love it.

 

[ScepterToad]

Congrats to all Mike! Wonderful news!

 

[CGarage]

True, but one thing I try to instill in the mechanics that work for me when discussing parts and consumables is to treat each job and their own small work area as their own company. Make decisions based on what they would do if they were writing the check for those materials or parts. I don't know if it makes a difference or not, but at least it gets them thinking a little more along the lines of personal accountability vs. it's a big company and they have plenty of money.

I'll admit that owning and running a side business for a couple of decades may have given me a bit of an advantage in the "big picture" type of expenses, but it's not something that anyone spinning wrenches can't or shouldn't try to adopt as a mindset. I learned many years ago that being the best wrench in the world isn't a guarantee to any path forward. One needs to develop additional skills and add them to their toolbox in order to be successful. Tools like communication, both in written and spoken form, as well as critical thinking skills are invaluable if a person wants to make themselves invaluable to an organization, large or small.

This is one of your best posts of all time.
There is much wisdom in your words here.
And this is why you have succeeded in your trade, and also, in your life.

 

[CGarage]

I am familiar with one around here who charges a bit more than most of the good independent repair shops, similar to dealer prices. If you want to book an oil change he is eight weeks out.

This surprised me to no end. I could not imagine a mobile mechanic who preferred being on the road compared to being in the shop. In Europe, I think you see this business model more often. In the States, I have met two that have amazing businesses and who are highly skilled. They are happy being on their backs and feel they don’t need the traditional car lift. I thought they were crazy. But they are happy, have freedom, and made good businesses out of it.

 

[jlenander]

And one other time that he wanted in on solving a weird problem of mine that pushed it to the top of his list. Neither of us had ever heard of or seen a Full-Float drive axle melt in half before.

Wow....I'd love to hear that story....and the cause/solution!!

 

[T444e]

Wow....I'd love to hear that story....and the cause/solution!!

I second that.

 

[ntsqd]

Wow....I'd love to hear that story....and the cause/solution!!

I second that.

It was pretty simple, we just didn't expect it to play out the way that it did. I converted a rear full-float Dana 60 to 35 spline, which means boring the spindles out just a little. The ID needs to be 1-9/16" to have enough clearance. I made a special tool to do the job (image link). It uses a Hougen rotary broach (image link) to cut the bore and is powered by a 1/2" drill motor - the slower the better as Hougens seem to cut best at around 100 RPM. After boring both spindles I extensively tested that the axle shafts had radial clearance. I somehow missed one spot that didn't have clearance. Can't really see the gradient of the heat discoloring in the pic (image link), but in just 3 miles of less than highway speed driving the shaft got so hot that the shaft failed and locked up the right-rear tire. In person it is clear that the shaft had to be nearly starting to glow when it failed. Who'd have though it could get that hot for incidental contact? The way that it failed allowed the tire to rotate about 3/4 of a rotation before it would lock up solidly. That really confused us.
A carbide burr on a ~10" long shank (scary thing!!!) was able to reach in there and knock the high spot down because it was beyond the reach of my special tool, which was sized to reach well past the spindle to housing weld zone.

 

[zmotorsports]

I've kind of let my thread lapse as I haven't been in the mood to post much over the past couple of weeks. The wife and I were going to sneak away for a few days this week to do a shake down run on the coach and spend some time together before our granddaughter arrives, but unfortunately, my sister passed away last week so this week we've been attending to family matters.

I'll post up more detailed pictures of the yard work in my shop and house thread, but I finally wrapped it up last night. The wife is very pleased with how it turned out.









Thanks for looking.

 

[OutlawDrifter]

Condolences on the loss of your sister, Mike!

 

[larry4406]

Sorry to hear of your sisters passing Mike. Its never easy.

The concrete edging and rocks looks nice.

 

[fouckhest]

Sorry to hear about about your sister, Mike.

Rock gardens look nice!

 

[zmotorsports]

Thanks guys. She's been fighting for over a year and I was able to sit and visit with her a few days before her passing and she told me and her husband that "she's sick and tired of being sick and tired". Even though we weren't very close over the past several decades, seeing hers and her husband's testimony and faith are such an inspiration.

 

[ntsqd]

Sorry for your loss. I don't know which is worse, knowing and thinking that you have time to prepare and say good-bye, or suddenly gone. Neither is good and my experience has been that you aren't prepared no matter what. You might think you are, until it happens. And then I realize that I wasn't ready.

I like the irregular waviness of the kerbs. My first inclination would been linear, but on seeing your waviness I can picture just how bad equal-distant linear would look.

 

[Finallygotit]

So sorry for your loss, Mike.

 

[zmotorsports]

Thanks guys.

 

[zanyad]

My condolences, Mike.

 

[BigMike782]

Condolences to you and your family.
I lost a sister very suddenly and it taught me that life is short, live for today.

 

[SilverJimmy]

Very sorry for your loss.

 

[zmotorsports]

Thanks guys. Although we weren't very close, it did impact me a bit more than I thought it would. When siblings start passing it's a different feeling than it is with parents. I've always told my wife with me being the youngest of seven, if the natural order of things plays out, I will have to watch my six siblings pass as well as our parents. Unfortunately, looks like that time of our life is unfolding.

Seems like when we're younger we don't think about our own mortality as much, but I've sure been thinking about it lately.

 

[Swanny1953]

Seems like when we're younger we don't think about our own mortality as much, but I've sure been thinking about it lately.

Mike, so sorry to hear of your sister's passing. Close or not, it can't be easy saying goodbye to a sibling. Mine is 16 month younger than me and in great health, so hopefully, we don't have to deal with what you're going through anytime soon.
We'll all be around when you get the inspiration to pick your postings back up, my friend!!
BTW, yard renovation looks great!!

 

[zmotorsports]

Thanks Gary.

 

[madison069]

Sorry for your loss, never easy watching family die. Someone in the group has to be the last one unfortunately.

 

[ScepterToad]

So sorry for your loss Mike. Losing a sibling is not fun.

I do love the curbing and rocks around the house as well. I wasn't under the impression for your previous posts (maybe I missed it) that you'd be doing concrete curbing like that. Nothing like a little overkill to really set off your yard. Well done!

 

[zmotorsports]

So sorry for your loss Mike. Losing a sibling is not fun.

I do love the curbing and rocks around the house as well. I wasn't under the impression for your previous posts (maybe I missed it) that you'd be doing concrete curbing like that. Nothing like a little overkill to really set off your yard. Well done!

Thanks Keith.

The idea of doing some additional curbing was two-fold, first it addressed the area on the south side of the house where I have been struggling to keep watered as the heat coming off the stucco just cooks the grass, then in other areas just around the corner I end up with mushrooms. This will address the area of grass I struggle to keep green as well as removed all the sprinkler heads from the foundation. I originally was only going to do the area under the master bedroom of the house because that was the only area I was struggling with, but when I reached out to get quotes, I discovered that most companies in my area have a minimum linear footage for curbing, so I may as well hit that minimum. That's when I ran the idea past the wife of doing the entire corner of the house and incorporating the shop into the mix.

This also goes a long ways to tie the entire property together as I've had a goal all along to make the shop and yard all look like it was done at the same time as the house, nothing to look like an afterthought. I think this ties it all together nicely.

 

[Xti04]

Sorry for your loss Mike. Close or not, losing family is still tough. Yard is looking nice. My old neighbor had a business doing decorative curbing and bed edging. I like the ease of maintenance with it.

 

[rharman]

Sorry for the loss of your sister. Condolences to you and the entire family.

 

[rharman]

Curbing looks nice. An organic shape is very pleasing to the eye.

 

[545_days]

Condolences for your sister.

 

[senlow]

I'm so sorry for your loss. My condolences to you and your family. It's hard to lose a sibling.