What should I be looking out for in my contractor?

[VietGnome]

DIY build planned this summer, only thing I'm contracting out is the slab.

I locked down my concrete guy. Happened to be the cheapest by a long shot, was also by far the most transparent, and recommended.

I'll be sure to be around for the pour in its entirety. What should I be looking out for/keeping an eye throughout besides the obvious make sure it sticks to the plans?

Overall quite a simple pad, probably going to have electrical come up through the pad, and possibly roughed plumbing to add a sink later.

 

[PCustoms]

Overall quite a simple pad, probably going to have electrical come up through the pad, and possibly roughed plumbing to add a sink later.

Let's start with your specs, then we can flag what to expect.

Site prep has a lot to do with how well a slab performs too.

 

[Lassen Forge]

Double check the formwork BEFORE the pour, and KNOW how much concrete it's going to take to fill your formwork - more than one story (here) about a contractor either short pouring a slab or messing up forms, and not catching it until it was too late...

IDK where you are, but make sure you have an appropriate subbase under it.

 

[ConCretin]

Take a look at my Guide to Floor Slabs in the link below for some additional thoughts but assuming the base under the slab is adequate, the first priority should be to control mix water.

Your contractor should be prepared to wrestle a sub 4 inch slump or add a mid range water reducer for a max of 6”. No discussion or whining on pour day.

Excess water will keep you from reaching design strength but more importantly can lead to a wide range of surface defects that are virtually impossible to repair.

This goes for splashing water on the slab to aid finishing as well.

 

[driftpin]

#1 is file a Notice of Commencement (NOC) when you get your permits. You may already know this but it saves you from an unscrupulous contractor who doesn't pay materials suppliers or sub-contractors. Without a NOC, the materials suppliers or the sub-contractors can and will come after you for non-payment. In FL, the NOC is filed with the county Clerk of the Courts.

 

[ConCretin]

We don’t have NOC‘s or even contractor licensing up here but it brings up a good point about lien laws. They vary widely by State but the basic concept is generally the same, which is that a sub or supplier is entitled to payment for goods or services that improve a property regardless of whether the homeowner has paid an upper tier contractor. In other words, if you pay your concrete contractor for materials and he fails to pay his suppliers, you are likely to pay twice.

I assume a NOC is related to some kind of payment bond, which is a third party guarantee to pay lower tier subs and suppliers if your contractor fails to do so. Payment bonds are rare unless however a State somehow mandates them. If I asked a local contractor for one, he‘d look at me like I had two heads.

Your next best protection is a lien waiver. You should always get one from your contractors upon payment wherein they acknowledge that your payment constitutes full payment for all work through a certain date. They typically also affirm that all lower tier subs entities have also also been paid from previous progress payments,

You need to be aware however that just because your contractor says subs and suppliers have been paid, it doesn’t mean much unless you get lien waivers directly from those subs and suppliers.

While it usually isn’t realistic to expect your concrete contractor to pay for materials before you pay him, you could limit your risk by making multiple payments. Pay enough to permit your contractor to pay for materials plus whatever you can negotiate and request lien waivers from suppliers proving they have been paid before paying the balance.

This may be more difficult than you expect and I doubt very many contractors these days would be willing to accept these terms but if you have questions about your contractor, it might be worth considering before you write a big check the day your slab is poured.

Apologies to the OP for the highjack but I haven‘t seen this discussed in a while.

 

[VietGnome]

We don’t have NOC‘s or even contractor licensing up here but it brings up a good point about lien laws. They vary widely by State but the basic concept is generally the same, which is that a sub or supplier is entitled to payment for goods or services that improve a property regardless of whether the homeowner has paid an upper tier contractor. In other words, if you pay your concrete contractor for materials and he fails to pay his suppliers, you are likely to pay twice.

I assume a NOC is related to some kind of payment bond, which is a third party guarantee to pay lower tier subs and suppliers if your contractor fails to do so. Payment bonds are rare unless however a State somehow mandates them. If I asked a local contractor for one, he‘d look at me like I had two heads.

Your next best protection is a lien waiver. You should always get one from your contractors upon payment wherein they acknowledge that your payment constitutes full payment for all work through a certain date. They typically also affirm that all lower tier subs entities have also also been paid from previous progress payments,

You need to be aware however that just because your contractor says subs and suppliers have been paid, it doesn’t mean much unless you get lien waivers directly from those subs and suppliers.

While it usually isn’t realistic to expect your concrete contractor to pay for materials before you pay him, you could limit your risk by making multiple payments. Pay enough to permit your contractor to pay for materials plus whatever you can negotiate and request lien waivers from suppliers proving they have been paid before paying the balance.

This may be more difficult than you expect and I doubt very many contractors these days would be willing to accept these terms but if you have questions about your contractor, it might be worth considering before you write a big check the day your slab is poured.

Apologies to the OP for the highjack but I haven‘t seen this discussed in a while.

That's an interesting point. Ill keep it in mind. I don't think we have NOC here either.

 

[VietGnome]

Let's start with your specs, then we can flag what to expect.

Site prep has a lot to do with how well a slab performs too.

I should have included that. 30x40. 6" thick, 18" thick edges. Full underslab and wing/edge insulation. 10M/15M rebar throughout. 8" curb mono poured with slab.
Plan's call for 6" crushed rock compacted base, contractor is planning for 12" pit run compacted in lifts, then 6" crush compacted in lifts ontop.

Double check the formwork BEFORE the pour, and KNOW how much concrete it's going to take to fill your formwork - more than one story (here) about a contractor either short pouring a slab or messing up forms, and not catching it until it was too late...

IDK where you are, but make sure you have an appropriate subbase under it.

Good points. I'll definitely verify forms as the slab will be graded, but the curb will be level.
He sent me his concrete calcs, and it jives with what i figured out on my own.

 

[Old tool guy]

, the first priority should be to control mix water.

The batch plant will send what the mix design calls for, so we would specify 5” +/- 1“. The joker in the deck is the concrete foreman and the truck driver, the foreman will say it’s too dry and can’t be properly placed, and tell the driver to add water on site.

 

[duneslider]

Concrete is so rough. Of all the pours I have done the two that turned out the best were by the guys that seemed the most sketch. The one was a one man show, he came highly recommended from my neighbor and I saw the work he did for the neighbor and it was good. The guy killed it and his price was cheap. The other was a guy that was doing a bunch of work in the neighborhood, gave a price over text, over delivered on the work and gravel provided, and didn't return calls or texts after the job when I was asking him how to pay him. Showed up at my door 3 weeks laterwith a hand written invoice on scrape paper wanting to get paid.

When I built my house all the pump companies filed liens, must be common for them to not get paid. I did have to pay a couple of the pumping bills to close on my house, but I hadn't paid the concrete contractor yet either, so we just deducted from their bill. This was during covid and everyone was so busy it was hard to get contractors to bill us in a timely manner which led to a bunch of issues at closing time.

Anyway, I have had much better luck with the small guys than the big highly recommended companies. I would just make sure you go over what you are expecting to happen, if you want rebar make sure you say how much and where, if the slump should be 6" state that and make sure he is good with it, ask if he has any concerns with what you are asking for. Does he have enough crew to handle the size of pour? I had that issue with my house, due to concrete availability they had to do all my flat work at the same time and the trucks didn't show up until 1pm on a 95 degree day, he didn't have enough guys for the amount of mud that was coming at that time of day, they put water on it and I have spalling issues like crazy.

 

[VietGnome]

Concrete is so rough. Of all the pours I have done the two that turned out the best were by the guys that seemed the most sketch. The one was a one man show, he came highly recommended from my neighbor and I saw the work he did for the neighbor and it was good. The guy killed it and his price was cheap. The other was a guy that was doing a bunch of work in the neighborhood, gave a price over text, over delivered on the work and gravel provided, and didn't return calls or texts after the job when I was asking him how to pay him. Showed up at my door 3 weeks laterwith a hand written invoice on scrape paper wanting to get paid.

When I built my house all the pump companies filed liens, must be common for them to not get paid. I did have to pay a couple of the pumping bills to close on my house, but I hadn't paid the concrete contractor yet either, so we just deducted from their bill. This was during covid and everyone was so busy it was hard to get contractors to bill us in a timely manner which led to a bunch of issues at closing time.

Anyway, I have had much better luck with the small guys than the big highly recommended companies. I would just make sure you go over what you are expecting to happen, if you want rebar make sure you say how much and where, if the slump should be 6" state that and make sure he is good with it, ask if he has any concerns with what you are asking for. Does he have enough crew to handle the size of pour? I had that issue with my house, due to concrete availability they had to do all my flat work at the same time and the trucks didn't show up until 1pm on a 95 degree day, he didn't have enough guys for the amount of mud that was coming at that time of day, they put water on it and I have spalling issues like crazy.

Thanks.

This guys seems to be a smaller outfit, seemed highly recommended on social media, and was directly recommended by a buddy who seems to know his ****.

He was by far the most transparent. Other companies would give me a 1 line facebook sentence as a quote.. Think "the pad will be 35k. another 16k if you want land cleared"

This guy send me all the quotes he got from his suppliers for material, sent me his math for how much concrete, then a formal quote with all of the above, labor separate for base prep, pour and finish, as well as machine prices for clearing/prep.

I have stamped plans so the specs and requirements are fairly cut and dry. I have a good feeling about it but I'll be sure to be around for pour day and make sure there's no issues like you listed above.

 

[duneslider]

Thanks.

This guys seems to be a smaller outfit, seemed highly recommended on social media, and was directly recommended by a buddy who seems to know his ****.

He was by far the most transparent. Other companies would give me a 1 line facebook sentence as a quote.. Think "the pad will be 35k. another 16k if you want land cleared"

This guy send me all the quotes he got from his suppliers for material, sent me his math for how much concrete, then a formal quote with all of the above, labor separate for base prep, pour and finish, as well as machine prices for clearing/prep.

I have stamped plans so the specs and requirements are fairly cut and dry. I have a good feeling about it but I'll be sure to be around for pour day and make sure there's no issues like you listed above.

The other one is see if the guy you are talking to will be on the job when it happens. A lot of the issues I had, not just with concrete, I had great talks with the contractor himself but then come to the big day it was just his crew onsite and they either didn't know what had been talked about or they didn't care and just did what they wanted.

 

[VietGnome]

The other one is see if the guy you are talking to will be on the job when it happens. A lot of the issues I had, not just with concrete, I had great talks with the contractor himself but then come to the big day it was just his crew onsite and they either didn't know what had been talked about or they didn't care and just did what they wanted.

That's actually a phenomenal point. It's a small company so I think so. But I never really considered it. I'll definitely add that to the list to ask him when we meet.

 

[WildBill]

The joker in the deck is the concrete foreman and the truck driver, the foreman will say it’s too dry and can’t be properly placed, and tell the driver to add water on site.

This happened to me, last truck decided it was taking too long and dumped in a ton of water, so the last corner of my shop has crappy flaky concrete and a crack where the super wet stuff meets the other concrete.

 

[duneslider]

Also, just my opinion but I think there is a fine line between standing over someone's shoulder and being there to make sure it goes as planned. I liked to meet quick just before they got going and if it seemed like they had it under control I left them be to do their thing and not feel like I was babysitting them.

 

[dcg9381]

DIY build planned this summer, only thing I'm contracting out is the slab.
I locked down my concrete guy. Happened to be the cheapest by a long shot, was also by far the most transparent, and recommended.
I'll be sure to be around for the pour in its entirety. What should I be looking out for/keeping an eye throughout besides the obvious make sure it sticks to the plans?

You have an engineered slab, right? (stamped plans)
Who inspects pre-pour?

I think you've done it right - you got references (that you know, not from the contractor). Make sure your stamped plans are part of the contract.

I ALWAYS do a civil court search before I hire contractors, it's easy to do here. Tells me if they are getting sued.

The only other caution that I'd say is to make sure they pour under the right conditions. If you're in the south, you don't want a pour during high heat if they don't have enough bodies to get the concrete down. We also often "water" our slabs post pour, so be prepared for that. Watch the forecast for rain, don't let them pour if there is a chance of rain. Up north, you don't pour if it's too cold..

 

[VietGnome]

You have an engineered slab, right? (stamped plans)
Who inspects pre-pour?

I think you've done it right - you got references (that you know, not from the contractor). Make sure your stamped plans are part of the contract.

I ALWAYS do a civil court search before I hire contractors, it's easy to do here. Tells me if they are getting sued.

The only other caution that I'd say is to make sure they pour under the right conditions. If you're in the south, you don't want a pour during high heat if they don't have enough bodies to get the concrete down. We also often "water" our slabs post pour, so be prepared for that. Watch the forecast for rain, don't let them pour if there is a chance of rain. Up north, you don't pour if it's too cold..

I have stamped plans, that's what he used to get me an accurate quote.

I'll verify to make sure, but I believe locally there is no pre-pour inspection. Only post.

EDIT: It may be hard to time but it gets hot up in our neck of the woods (85-95F). Once we have a date set I'll have to watch the weather and talk to the contractor

 

[dcg9381]

I have stamped plans, that's what he used to get me an accurate quote.

That's fine, an inspection isn't required, but to have an "engineered foundation" usually there is a pre-pour inspection. For shops, I've gone the non-engineered route. I think that you can probably check the spec yourself. Not a big deal.

EDIT: It may be hard to time but it gets hot up in our neck of the woods (85-95F). Once we have a date set I'll have to watch the weather and talk to the contractor

85 would be fine. 95+ in the sun time to get that concrete down and smoothed out is critical. Do you have a water source? I'd look into watering (kinda misting) the slab a couple of times as it dries out if it's really hot...

 

[ConCretin]

Generally some good advice being offered. Just to clarify a recent comment. Watering your slab a couple times especially during hot weather will do more harm than good. The goal is to maintain the concrete in a continually moist condition for at least a week.

This can be achieved with a chemical curing compound that seals in the mix water, an actual membrane that does the same or by the continuous application of water To create a seal.

Letting the concrete heat up and applying water over and over will create thermal shock and potential cracking.

 

[dcg9381]

Generally some good advice being offered. Just to clarify a recent comment. Watering your slab a couple times especially during hot weather will do more harm than good. The goal is to maintain the concrete in a continually moist condition for at least a week.

This can be achieved with a chemical curing compound that seals in the mix water, an actual membrane that does the same or by the continuous application of water To create a seal.

Letting the concrete heat up and applying water over and over will create thermal shock and potential cracking.

So how does the "average" consumer handle it down south where it's often 90-100 degrees in the summer. I mean other than asking for the right "mix" of concrete with this compound in it?

I've seen quite a few slabs where the skim coat dries too fast and then flakes... Given, that's probably a "not enough labor" problem.

Here's a post by a "concrete specialist" that says the opposite and I can find a number of others suggesting the same:

post | A-Core Industrial Services

A-Core Industrial Services manages 5 data types including site settingses. Helps you organize, track, and share your work in 1 place for teams and solo users.

www.a-core.com

Legit question, I'm no concrete expert, but have had a few "not great" experiences with slab pours when it's hot out....

 

[lolaetype]

This guys seems to be a smaller outfit, seemed highly recommended on social media, and was directly recommended by a buddy who seems to know his ****.

Personally, I wouldn't rely solely on social media for recommendations. Ask the contractor for a list of recent pours and contact his actual customers. Eyeball his work.

 

[dcg9381]

Ask the contractor for a list of recent pours and contact his actual customers. Eyeball his work.

The key is go see his work. I've had shady contractors offer me "references" that called me back later, saying they didn't have any work done. But it's the wild west on contracting here.

Bigger deal is not paying up front for work / materials that aren't delivered. Contractor should be behind the curve, not the consumer.

 

[MovingAlong]

Ask for a copy of both his contracting license and insurance (that covers you and the job). In the event of a problem you'll want to be contacting the licensing board and his insurance company directly...

 

[dcg9381]

Ask for a copy of both his contracting license and insurance (that covers you and the job). In the event of a problem you'll want to be contacting the licensing board and his insurance company directly...

Clearly you don't live in Texas.

Contractors "license"...bwahahah....

Insurance is only good if you validate it with the insurance company. Everyone has a printer.

 

[MovingAlong]

Clearly you don't live in Texas.

Contractors "license"...bwahahah....

Insurance is only good if you validate it with the insurance company. Everyone has a printer.

That is correct. But some research shows that while Texas doesn't have state level requirements, major cities (like Austin) and some counties do have requirements that a contractor register with them.

And calling to validate both items would be required of course. I'd take the word of some contractors I've known, but not all of them...

 

[rockcrawler]

First thing to look into is their criminal background. How many times have they ripped off customers, closed shop, and opened a new company the day after they got out of jail in attempts to hide their shady past, and hide from the customers they shafted. Happens here in Texas on a regular basis. Also check the BBB and scour the internet (using his first and last name and current company name) for any past or current issues.

 

[dcg9381]

That is correct. But some research shows that while Texas doesn't have state level requirements, major cities (like Austin) and some counties do have requirements that a contractor register with them.

And Austin likely requires a permit to add an outlet. I know they require $1M in liability insurance to DIY install solar.

From what I've seen, even with licensed contractors the license board (plumbers) won't get involved in monetary disputes with consumers. And the DA's office doesn't like to get involved in any sort of contractual dispute, they consider it "civil" - if you handed over a check willingly, they have bigger fish to fry.... At least until the contractors have taken $100k+ from multiple people.

I don't actually live in the city limits. I paid good money to get "just outside" their jurisdiction. The only thing really regulated here is septic... Everything else is wild west. And they regulate that by preventing resale without valid permits and pre-sale inspections, so it's quite real.

You give good advice though.. Check on licensing and insurance if that's a thing where you are. Hopefully the license is easy to look up. Most of the "bad" contractors I've dealt with show up easily on civil court records, so that's the first place I go. I'm lucky to have neighbors that build (GC) for a living.... But hiring someone site unseen is a craps shoot.

 

[ConCretin]

So how does the "average" consumer handle it down south where it's often 90-100 degrees in the summer. I mean other than asking for the right "mix" of concrete with this compound in it?

Here's a post by a "concrete specialist" that says the opposite and I can find a number of others suggesting the same:

post | A-Core Industrial Services

A-Core Industrial Services manages 5 data types including site settingses. Helps you organize, track, and share your work in 1 place for teams and solo users.

www.a-core.com

With regard to your first question, curing compound is a chemical that is sprayed or rolled onto the concrete after placement. Many believe it is inferior to moist curing but it’s definitely better than nothing

With all due respect, you are getting bad information with regard to curing concrete. The article you cite is lacking in several areas. Applying water a couple times after placement and letting it dry out again is barely better than nothing. Spraying cold water on a hot slab is never a good idea.

Concrete gains strength through a process called hydration wherein the cement reacts with mix water. If the mix water evaporates, the process stops. Since properly cured concrete gains about 70% of its design strength in 7 days, that is the typical curing period.

it’s worth noting that the concrete doesn’t need extra water added to set properly. There is more than enough mix water already in there. Curing is simply the process of keeping the concrete from drying out prematurely.

No disrespect was Intended by disagreeing with you or your sources, At the risk of sounding like an ***, take a look at my Guide to Floor Slabs in the link below, I consider it to be peer reviewed by some very smart people on here.

 

[dcg9381]

No disrespect was Intended by disagreeing with you or your sources, At the risk of sounding like an ***, take a look at my Guide to Floor Slabs in the link below, I consider it to be peer reviewed by some very smart people on here.

Thanks. No disrespect was taken on my end. Watering slabs is common here and I'm interested in your opinion / reasons why this isn't a good idea... I hadn't read your guide to slabs before, but I've started taking a look. Concrete in Texas is a real challenge because it's well over 85 degrees in the AM during the summer... Appreciate the constructive feedback.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Let's start with your specs, then we can flag what to expect.

Site prep has a lot to do with how well a slab performs too.

I have only had to deal with contractors a couple times in my life. The first experience was bad, so I learned my lesson.

First, get a contract, in writing, signed by someone in authority at the company (not just a sales person).

Second, and most important, make sure the contract say EXACTLY everything you discussed with the sales person. If it is not in writing, it has not been said !

If it is not in the contract, make an addendum ! Get it signed by both parties. Give a copy to the foreman the day the job starts. For example, it should state the start and completion dates and penalties. (Stopped a roofing job because I spec'd 1/2" plywood and they tried to deliver 7/16".) Now before all you contractors get your shorts in a bundle, add the clause "unless mutually agreed upon" on dates ! (I had a brick patio installed. Finished a day late because a worker was sick. No penalty.)

If possible, be there. Be conspicuous ! Take pictures/video. A friend of a friend had the contractor tear out/rebuild some footings that were not done to spec because he had video.

 

[theoldwizard1]

We don’t have NOC‘s or even contractor licensing up here but it brings up a good point about lien laws. They vary widely by State but the basic concept is generally the same, ...

If it is not in writing, he hasn't been said !

 

[ConCretin]

While I don't disagree that a contract is a net positive, I've been signing them for 40 years and it's worthwhile to understand their inherent limitations. We always joked that the only time people read the damn things was when things had already gone to ****.

First is the difficulty of getting a small contractor to sign one in the first place. These days if you hand most guys a contract with all sorts of dates, conditions and penalties, they are likely to move on to less demanding customers. As a commercial/industrial subcontractor, I was used to swimming with sharks but I walked away more than once from a PIA customer. It would be a shame to pass over an otherwise competent contractor because they weren't comfortable with your contract and all that entails.

Second is the difficulty in enforcing the terms of the agreement if it becomes necessary. I had many contractual disputes over the years and not a single one went to court because the cost of fighting was greater than the potential return. Considering the limited assets of most small contractors, the likelihood of recovery is very small.

Honestly, your best protection is to be the one with the money when the poop hits the fan. Avoid paying for anything up front and guard against down stream liens. The same challenges you face when it comes to enforcing an agreement apply to your contractor. He doesn't want to hire a lawyer any more than you do. Even a lien isn't the end of the world. Your bank might get antsy but liens usually expire within a few months if not followed up by a successful lawsuit. Lower tier suppliers who provided materials will probably win but the contractor who screwed up your slab has a much lower chance of prevailing and probably won't bother trying. It's usually a no-win situation anyway but keeping the money in your bank account can mitigate the damage.

With all that said, it's best to be aware of any local regulations regarding home construction contracts to understand your rights and protect your interests. In addition, I always felt that the contract negotiation phase was valuable to ensure there was a meeting of the minds that would hopefully avoid future disagreements about scope of work. Having a detailed conversation and taking a few notes regarding each parties expectations is probably more valuable in practice than a long document that doesn't get read until the lawyers open it up.