30x36 Pole Barn - Ceiling Insulated/ Walls Just Drywalled

[bagsanthony]

Gents,
Recently moved into a new house where the "finished" side of my pole barn (approx 30 ft x 36 ft) has R-30 insulation and drywall for the ceiling. The walls are drywalled but come to find out no insulation in the walls exist. I'm located in Western NY. The space will not truly be heated 24/7 - only a couple hours throughout the week after work and on the weekends (bump to maybe 60/65 degrees) I plan on removing the existing radiant tube heater as it is in the way of my car lift and installing a forced air propane unit in the corner.

My question is how big of a concern is the lack of wall insulation? As I understand, about 80 percent of the heat loss is in the ceiling and that is well insulated. Just want to weigh out my options/ don't want to get too far into running my compressed air lines on the wall and hanging items if a total wall rip off is in order. What are your thoughts? As I said I would probably only maintain the space to 45 (when not used it does get pretty cold here) and bump up while working. Again, this is Western NY, I'm used to the cold and not looking for a tropical oasis all the time. Thanks guys!

 

[hobie18]

Heat all winter, insulate.
Work on cars, dangerous fumes, hmm.

 

[Von Psycho]

Without a dryer the moisture in your air lines will freeze and by only running a heater a few hours of the day the floor will always be cold.
The dead air space in the walls isn't great but best with sealed walls.

 

[dcg9381]

My question is how big of a concern is the lack of wall insulation? As I understand, about 80 percent of the heat loss is in the ceiling and that is well insulated. Just want to weigh out my options/ don't want to get too far into running my compressed air lines on the wall and hanging items if a total wall rip off is in order. What are your thoughts? As I said I would probably only maintain the space to 45 (when not used it does get pretty cold here) and bump up while working. Again, this is Western NY, I'm used to the cold and not looking for a tropical oasis all the time. Thanks guys!

You have it right, most of the heat/loss gain is up.
They regularly build garages in TX without any wall insulation. As long as their are no water lines in the walls and you don't really need to heat this 24/7, perhaps you can skip it.

I do see "foam" insulation companies that will put small holes in drywall and fill from the bottom up.. Never used one of them though.

 

[bagsanthony]

Without a dryer the moisture in your air lines will freeze and by only running a heater a few hours of the day the floor will always be cold.
The dead air space in the walls isn't great but best with sealed walls.

Thanks. No doubt I will have a dryer. As for the cold floor - That's the case for any forced air unit heater type of heat. Auto Repair shops around here are mostly all the same: cold, grungy, cold floor, drafty... A space this size and with its current offerings are actually a luxury for me...

 

[VINELANDER]

I realize this thread is old but this post might still be very informative to late readers. One big problem of drywall/gyprock in an unheated building is the deadly and dreaded "BLACK MOLD" . This can occur even on the moisture proofed type .

 

[bagsanthony]

I realize this thread is old but this post might still be very informative to late readers. One big problem of drywall/gyprock in an unheated building is the deadly and dreaded "BLACK MOLD" . This can occur even on the moisture proofed type .

Im confused, this thread was started this morning how is it old? And black mold can grow anywhere in a damp environment…this is not related to the question I asked.

 

[PoorUB]

My question is how big of a concern is the lack of wall insulation? As I understand, about 80 percent of the heat loss is in the ceiling and that is well insulated. Just want to weigh out my options/ don't want to get too far into running my compressed air lines on the wall and hanging items if a total wall rip off is in order. What are your thoughts? As I said I would probably only maintain the space to 45 (when not used it does get pretty cold here) and bump up while working. Again, this is Western NY, I'm used to the cold and not looking for a tropical oasis all the time. Thanks guys!

No question, insulate! It can be foamed, or blown in cellulose or fiberglass.

 

[VINELANDER]

Sorry about the confusion of "old thread" I confused this thread with a former one i had read. Confusion happens when one is 80yrs. old and not 100% computer savy. Ok, in answer to your question , let me first ask a couple of questions regarding the wall construction of your pole barn. Does it have a vapour barrier behind the drywall sheeting. Is the exterior sheeting metal or wood?

 

[VINELANDER]

Company arrived had to cut my last post short-To complete -- During cold winter weather if there is no vapour barrier the inside warmer moist air will migrate from the interior of the building into the wall cavities and condense on the back surface of the exterior sheeting. More so if the exterior sheeting is metal. Two effects take place (1) The air contained within the wall cavities become very moist and very conductive increasing heat loss thru the walls. The condensing of this moist air on the inside of the exterior walls will in many cases form a coating of ice thus making the building overall a colder one. In your case reducing the "R" rating of the non insulated exterior walls even more. A well sealed vapour barrier behind the drywall eliminates this problem. (2)You mentioned you are removing the present propane/natural gas heating system . Along with heat the burning of these fuels generates fairly high levels of moisture. In the case of the present heating system, this is not much of a problem as it is ducked thru the wall to the outside taking the moisture byproduct with it. However if you are installing one of those quick heat non exhausted propane heaters(a salamander on steroids) you will greatly increase the moisture in the interior air and if it is the case your exterior walls have no vapour barrier, you will increase even further the heat loss thru those exterior walls . The result would be a very cold building indeed. If at all possible with or without a vapour barrier being installed either re-locate your present heating system or replace it with one that has an exhaust system to the outside. To answer you question if you can function within what looks like a large building without wall insulation, you have only two choices (1)--Work in the cold or(2) insulate and vapour proof the walls. Sorry there is not much of a positive answer here but the information above will at least give you some good ammunition to fight the battle ---

 

[bagsanthony]

Company arrived had to cut my last post short-To complete -- During cold winter weather if there is no vapour barrier the inside warmer moist air will migrate from the interior of the building into the wall cavities and condense on the back surface of the exterior sheeting. More so if the exterior sheeting is metal. Two effects take place (1) The air contained within the wall cavities become very moist and very conductive increasing heat loss thru the walls. The condensing of this moist air on the inside of the exterior walls will in many cases form a coating of ice thus making the building overall a colder one. In your case reducing the "R" rating of the non insulated exterior walls even more. A well sealed vapour barrier behind the drywall eliminates this problem. (2)You mentioned you are removing the present propane/natural gas heating system . Along with heat the burning of these fuels generates fairly high levels of moisture. In the case of the present heating system, this is not much of a problem as it is ducked thru the wall to the outside taking the moisture byproduct with it. However if you are installing one of those quick heat non exhausted propane heaters(a salamander on steroids) you will greatly increase the moisture in the interior air and if it is the case your exterior walls have no vapour barrier, you will increase even further the heat loss thru those exterior walls . The result would be a very cold building indeed. If at all possible with or without a vapour barrier being installed either re-locate your present heating system or replace it with one that has an exhaust system to the outside. To answer you question if you can function within what looks like a large building without wall insulation, you have only two choices (1)--Work in the cold or(2) insulate and vapour proof the walls. Sorry there is not much of a positive answer here but the information above will at least give you some good ammunition to fight the battle ---

The existing radiant tube heater would be removed, and I will be putting in a forced air unit heater. This is vented, always is! Not really sure where you are getting the non-exhausted heater from? Again, the question is how much of a concern is the lack of wall insulation with existing R-30 ceiling insulation, a 30x36 space, time of use, Western Ny area, etc. We're not here to talk about mold and moisture. The building is 32 years old, FYI, and is in like-new shape.

 

[VINELANDER]

WHoa -- there big boy, re read my post -- all my concerns are listed -- you simply have to make a decision based on them. Regardless the building will be cold. Do what I do in my shop which is 38X40 X 16ft. ceiling height built on the plans of a horse barn. It is well insulated with a well sealed vapour barrier and semi-heated with a wood stove . I have all my work benches and tool cabinets on wheels .In the fall of the year I re arrange for the cold winter by moving my planned winter project(s) and tools to the 1/2 of the shop containing the stove. I then pull across a big canvas curtan, much the same as an old style shower curtan set up, to divide the shop in half. The old wood stove then has a chance to semi heat the work area. If I get chilled I simply take a break pull up a chair near the stove and prepare a big hot mug of black tea laced with a little rum. The winters on the ocean here in South East N.S. are not quite as cold as your neck of the woods but about a month longer and damper however with little to no snow. --- Best of luck to you and your projects ...

 

[ipgenie]

If you were going to only turn the heat on for a few hours a week while working out there I'd say don't worry about a thing and use it as is. Just be sure things are set up so that freezing isn't a problem.

Heating to 45 all winter and bumping it up when working will cost a bit due to heat loss through the uninsulated walls. If the walls are well sealed and the space isn't drafty, this is probably a small expense. There are many cement block buildings without wall insulation that are heated all winter. I suspect the cost to insulate them wouldn't show a return on investment for many years. In an occasionaly heated space that return may never be realized. I'd still suggest using yours as is and see what it costs.

If you do decide to insulate your walls (not really what you are asking), I'll add to some of the information above. One of the lower cost options is the blown in cellulose or fiberglass. They don't take down the drywall, they just cut some 3-4 inch holes in each stud bay and blow it in. In 8' walls I've seen them cut just two holes one high and one low. We did a lot of that in my parents house. It was fast and since we were able to borrow a blowing machine, the only cost was insulation and our time. Patching the holes is a lot less work than hanging new drywall and all of the holes cut with a hole saw were the right size to patch the holes. They/you would have to cut holes along each horizontal opening in a pole barn, but you should be able to work around things like air lines and conduit so you can always add the insulation later if you decide it's needed. Foam would also be easy to add later, just a lot more expensive because instead of 1-2 inches, they usually end up filling the whole space.

 

[bagsanthony]

If you were going to only turn the heat on for a few hours a week while working out there I'd say don't worry about a thing and use it as is. Just be sure things are set up so that freezing isn't a problem.

Heating to 45 all winter and bumping it up when working will cost a bit due to heat loss through the uninsulated walls. If the walls are well sealed and the space isn't drafty, this is probably a small expense. There are many cement block buildings without wall insulation that are heated all winter. I suspect the cost to insulate them wouldn't show a return on investment for many years. In an occasionaly heated space that return may never be realized. I'd still suggest using yours as is and see what it costs.

If you do decide to insulate your walls (not really what you are asking), I'll add to some of the information above. One of the lower cost options is the blown in cellulose or fiberglass. They don't take down the drywall, they just cut some 3-4 inch holes in each stud bay and blow it in. In 8' walls I've seen them cut just two holes one high and one low. We did a lot of that in my parents house. It was fast and since we were able to borrow a blowing machine, the only cost was insulation and our time. Patching the holes is a lot less work than hanging new drywall and all of the holes cut with a hole saw were the right size to patch the holes. They/you would have to cut holes along each horizontal opening in a pole barn, but you should be able to work around things like air lines and conduit so you can always add the insulation later if you decide it's needed. Foam would also be easy to add later, just a lot more expensive because instead of 1-2 inches, they usually end up filling the whole space.

Thank you for the great feedback! This is exactly what I was asking… appreciate your response.

 

[ipgenie]

One more thought, you may be able to rotate the radiant tube heater 90 degrees and locate it in the space adjacent to the lift. They produce comfortable quiet heat and you already own it. Maybe it won't fit, it's hard to tell from the picture. We have those heaters in our semi truck shop and we like them.

 

[bagsanthony]

One more thought, you may be able to rotate the radiant tube heater 90 degrees and locate it in the space adjacent to the lift. They produce comfortable quiet heat and you already own it. Maybe it won't fit, it's hard to tell from the picture. We have those heaters in our semi truck shop and we like them.

That is a great suggestion. I was thinking about that as well. I'm just not sure if reworking the vent/gas is justified.

 

[bagsanthony]

Quick update. I've received quotes for blown-in-dense packed cellulose into the walls. The prices aren't terrible - I will leave it at that.... and much less aggravating and time consuming then ripping down the existing drywall and re-insulating in a working auto repair shop. I would then paint the drywall with vapor-retardant paint... My only apprehension at this point is moisture concerns blasting cellulose against a cold metal pole barn sided wall and also difficulty of running future electrical through the insulation.... thoughts???

 

[Yankeefarmer]

It’s a shop area. Run any future electrical in surface mounted conduit.

 

[bagsanthony]

No question, insulate! It can be foamed, or blown in cellulose or fiberglass.

Wouldn't blown-in cellulose corrode the pole barn metal?

 

[mike93lx]

Wouldn't blown-in cellulose corrode the pole barn metal?

Why would it?

If you are having the walls done, add some in the attic as r30 is far from "well insulated"

 

[bagsanthony]

Why would it?

If you are having the walls done, add some in the attic as r30 is far from "well insulated"

Ceiling has been updated to R-50 since this thread started. We were talking about wall options, not ceiling work and whether dense packing cellulose is a good idea pressing against metal siding with no house wrap

 

[mike93lx]

Ceiling has been updated to R-50 since this thread started. We were talking about wall options, not ceiling work and whether dense packing cellulose is a good idea pressing against metal siding with no house wrap

Sorry my mind reading skills are off today

House wrap isn't a vapor barrier anyway

 

[bagsanthony]

Sorry my mind reading skills are off today

House wrap isn't a vapor barrier anyway

Well aware of that

 

[mike93lx]

Well aware of that

If there is moisture getting in the wall, the insulation type won't matter a ton.

 

[pcmeiners]

"We were talking about wall options, not ceiling work and whether dense packing cellulose is a good idea pressing against metal siding with no house wrap"

No issue at all, the blower machines can only pack cellulose lightly, no matter how hard you pack. Cellulose has low permeability to air and moisture flow, A full coat of oil based paint will will stop most moisture flow; that is considering you seal any opening such as outlet boxes. Definitely dense pack the cellulose if not it will settle a good deal.

As to running electric after blown cellulose, run it before you insulate. Will require small holes in the Sheetrock to fish cable through if there is any space between the studs and original wall, otherwise external wiring. If your insulation in the ceiling is fiberglass blown or bat, and is accessible, added a few inches og cellulose over it to seal to stop air flow through the fiberglass.

The cost of running a low temp split 24/7 is negligible most times of the year, $10-20/month for your size garage, my garage is the same size . You are colder then I am so count on a supplemental heat source for days below 0° but not resistance heat unless you have your own nuclear fusion reactor .

 

[bagsanthony]

"We were talking about wall options, not ceiling work and whether dense packing cellulose is a good idea pressing against metal siding with no house wrap"

No issue at all, the blower machines can only pack cellulose lightly, no matter how hard you pack. Cellulose has low permeability to air and moisture flow, A full coat of oil based paint will will stop most moisture flow; that is considering you seal any opening such as outlet boxes. Definitely dense pack the cellulose if not it will settle a good deal.

As to running electric after blown cellulose, run it before you insulate. Will require small holes in the Sheetrock to fish cable through if there is any space between the studs and original wall, otherwise external wiring. If your insulation in the ceiling is fiberglass blown or bat, and is accessible, added a few inches og cellulose over it to seal to stop air flow through the fiberglass.

The cost of running a low temp split 24/7 is negligible most times of the year, $10-20/month for your size garage, my garage is the same size . You are colder then I am so count on a supplemental heat source for days below 0° but not resistance heat unless you have your own nuclear fusion reactor .

Thanks that really clears things up! Appreciate your thoroughness and getting this clear into the stubborn mechanic's head! I'm leaning towards going for the dense cellulose. thanks!

 

[Carchie]

You have it right, most of the heat/loss gain is up.
They regularly build garages in TX without any wall insulation. As long as their are no water lines in the walls and you don't really need to heat this 24/7, perhaps you can skip it.

I do see "foam" insulation companies that will put small holes in drywall and fill from the bottom up.. Never used one of them though.

If you are only heating the space occasionally while working, skipping the wall insulation makes sense. Just focus on stopping drafts around the doors and windows to keep the chill out.

 

[bagsanthony]

If you are only heating the space occasionally while working, skipping the wall insulation makes sense. Just focus on stopping drafts around the doors and windows to keep the chill out.

Thanks. Yeah, it does work for now but man I would really love to keep a low setpoint (I.E. 45) and bump to 60. I'm really leaning to the blown in dense packing.

 

[TonyG109]

I have a 30' x 50' pole building that has dense packed cellulose walls and it does a great job at insulating and slowing down air infiltration. I realize you're in a cooler area, but insulating the walls will also help keep the heat out during those hot summer days. Also, I'm not sure it matters to you, but dense pack is also very good at preventing sound transmission. Less noise gets out or comes in.

 

[bagsanthony]

I have a 30' x 50' pole building that has dense packed cellulose walls and it does a great job at insulating and slowing down air infiltration. I realize you're in a cooler area, but insulating the walls will also help keep the heat out during those hot summer days. Also, I'm not sure it matters to you, but dense pack is also very good at preventing sound transmission. Less noise gets out or comes in.

Thanks man! Appreciate your real world experience. I was skeptical due to shoving insulation directly against the metal walls, with no airgap and no house wrap.

 

[TonyG109]

I'd check with the manufacturer of the specific cellulose that will be used on your building. From what I understand borate treated cellulose is safe against metal. Ammonium sulfate treated cellulose is not safe.

 

[bagsanthony]

I'd check with the manufacturer of the specific cellulose that will be used on your building. From what I understand borate treated cellulose is safe against metal. Ammonium sulfate treated cellulose is not safe.

Thanks. Yes, apparently borate is what is used now. I really am thinking the cellulose would be a better option here for the reasons you mentioned. Tearing down drywall just to reinstall is a pain in the *** and not really a good option in a working mechanic shop.