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200 amp question

BurtEggley

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PRESENT ELECTRICAL

electrical.jpg

Good afternoon.

Background: If we stay here, which is to be decided yet, we will want to upgrade the main panel from 100 amps to 200 amps. The present meter and panel is an exterior GE panel from 1979, 125 amp with 100 amp service. The electrical company has a vault on my property in which they upgraded their service to it, and put in new 200 amp connectors, I think they called them stingers, last fall when the house next door upgraded to 200 amps. I am trying to plan ahead if we decide to stay and upgrade our panel.

Based on the work done next door, it is likely that an underground direct burial section (red in the image) of the old side-yard concrete driveway will have to be dug up, cut, and trenched to where I believe existing conduit (yellow) begins, then additional conduit added so it extends all the way from the vault to the house. The amount of conduit work will depend on what size the existing conduit is, where it begins, and where it terminates, assuming it was constructed the same as the house next door. Basically, a trench of unknown length, and cut concrete will be needed depending on the existing conduit we find. I don't recall if the conduit next door was 2 inch, or 1-1/2 inch.

The panel will have to be replaced with the siding off to frame for a new exterior panel because the present one is right where the garage and one bedroom come together. There is no room inside the garage (or bedroom) for it unless I give up my whole workbench area. Nor do I want to give up a car space.

Here is the question: So in thinking thru different work schedules to do all this, if the present 100 amp service wires are long enough at the present panel/meter combo, can the present PANEL be replaced, and pass inspection if it is a 200 amp rated box with a 100 amp main breaker in it, then at a later date the underground be upgraded from 100 amps to 200 amps and the main breaker upsized to 200 amps at that point. That would probably only take an electrical outage of 2 to 3 days for each stage to be done, because neither the trench nor the panel would be waiting for the other to be done. That keeps the number of trades needed down to a minimum on each phase of the work so one trade is not holding up the other trade etc.. It would be a heck of alot simpler to to schedule than the nearly a month it took the GC to cordinate the electrical upgrade next door when they remodeled last fall. The house was without power for about a month while each step had to wait for the previous one to be completed.
 
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mm08822

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Could add a 100A cb with holdown hardware in the new 200a panel. Mark 100A cb as main disconnect.

Ask AHJ if 200a cb has to be removed or could simply re-labeled as spare.

Ask POCO if they would even upgrade the lateral. If they won't, then no need for 100A cb.

Ahh, this is CA, so metermain may have fixed buss bars to the main cb.
Ask your POCO and AHJ as first steps.
 

dscheidt

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I doubt youre gonna find a 200a rated main panel with a 100a breaker in it.
You can replace the factory installed main breaker with a 100A one, though. SE list one for HOM and QO panels, I'm sure other brands do, too. It wouldn't surprise me if SE has a listing for a QOM2 panel that comes with a 100A breaker, though it's probably not commonly stocked. If the service is upgraded, remove the field installed main, and put the factory supplied one back.
 

rlitman

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...can the present PANEL be replaced, and pass inspection if it is a 200 amp rated box with a 100 amp main breaker in it, then at a later date the underground be upgraded from 100 amps to 200 amps and the main breaker upsized to 200 amps at that point...
It's a reasonable plan for a staged upgrade, provided you don't sit on it for decades and code doesn't change in the middle.
I'm assuming you'd be buying a panel with a 200A main, and then swapping in a 100A breaker (so you have the 200A breaker on the shelf for later). As stated above, you might want to consult with the utility first. The code for utility feeds is VERY different than the NEC that applies to your indoor work, and it is entirely possible that they will allow you to run with the 200A breaker from the beginning. Or maybe even something in between.
 

mm08822

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Step 1.

Mine laughed, and said they use the same wire for all residential services. When the day came they cut it at the mast, walked it over to the new location and connected it.
I asked a lineman once what was used for 100a & 200a overhead services. He said #2 Al for 100a and 2/0Al for 200a, or whatever we have on the truck.

The last 3 oh service upgrades I did, a year or more later and the old drops were still there. Seems like some practical cost cutting when only the panel is increased and loads dont.
 

wyliesdiesels

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You can replace the factory installed main breaker with a 100A one, though. SE list one for HOM and QO panels, I'm sure other brands do, too. It wouldn't surprise me if SE has a listing for a QOM2 panel that comes with a 100A breaker, though it's probably not commonly stocked. If the service is upgraded, remove the field installed main, and put the factory supplied one back.

in a meter main with bolt on bus bars? less likely...
 
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BurtEggley

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the service comes in underground. The end of the conduit and its size are unknown. There is a lot of concrete that will have to be cut or broken up if new conduit is needed all the way to a new panel. And, because of the location on the outside wall, I won't know how easy it will be to put a new panel in until the siding is removed. I do kind of remember from the early 2000's when I replaced the siding, that the area the current one is in, is a maze of framing with headers and multiple studs, where the garage meets the house. I do not have photos taken during that work, because it never occured to me 25 years ago that one day we would need appliances etc., that exceed the present design.

electrical.jpg


Does the POCO require metermains or is seperate equipment permitted?

In answer to the question re the meter here is a photo of the present one.

completed surge protector.jpg
 

PCustoms

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the service comes in underground. The end of the conduit and its size are unknown. There is a lot of concrete that will have to be cut or broken up if new conduit is needed all the way to a new panel. And, because of the location on the outside wall, I won't know how easy it will be to put a new panel in until the siding is removed. I do kind of remember from the early 2000's when I replaced the siding, that the area the current one is in, is a maze of framing with headers and multiple studs, where the garage meets the house. I do not have photos taken during that work, because it never occured to me 25 years ago that one day we would need appliances etc., that exceed the present design.

electrical.jpg




In answer to the question re the meter here is a photo of the present one.

completed surge protector.jpg

Silly question, if I missed answer I apologize, but why do you need to upgrade to 200a?
 

mm08822

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Need more pics.

Call POCO to find out if the feeder would even be upgraded.

You may only need more branch circuit space - either with a sub panel or bigger panel in a new metermain.

That completely changes the size of the job and cost.
 

mm08822

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Someone explain why some parts of the country want to recess a meter box into the wall? It just looks like a pain in the ****.
I cringe when I see a panel behind sheetrock and sheetrocked basement ceilings.

I prepare the HO for the sheetrock opening discussion.
 

Norcal

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There's no reason for anything to be off for a month.

On an occupied house I've never had power off for more than 6 or 7 hours during a service upgrade.
Then you need to deal with SMUD, Sacramento Municipal Utility District, I only dealt with them once & it took forever to restore power thankfully the house was vacant.
 
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BurtEggley

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Thank you.

In answer to the question why:

Just looking ahead at likely coming changes, and getting my plans on paper before they happen.
 

mike93lx

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The chances of needing an upgrade from 100a to 200a service is very low outside of intending to add something like on demand electric water heating or switching a house from all gas appliances to electric. An EV wouldn't necessitate it either
 

Bert_

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then youve never dealt with california PoCos lol
What is there excuse for such sh**ty service?

I had to repair a service about a month ago. Had a tree fall on the OH. Got torn down sometime in the night, I had a new meter box and riser up by about 9:00, and they had it reconnected by 10:00 or 10:30 am.
 
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BurtEggley

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What is there excuse for such sh**ty service?

I had to repair a service about a month ago. Had a tree fall on the OH. Got torn down sometime in the night, I had a new meter box and riser up by about 9:00, and they had it reconnected by 10:00 or 10:30 am.
The changes here enhance enshitification. Have a laugh on me -

 

Codyboy

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Step 1.

Mine laughed, and said they use the same wire for all residential services. When the day came they cut it at the mast, walked it over to the new location and connected it.
Pretty typical.
I asked a lineman once what was used for 100a & 200a overhead services. He said #2 Al for 100a and 2/0Al for 200a, or whatever we have on the truck.

The last 3 oh service upgrades I did, a year or more later and the old drops were still there. Seems like some practical cost cutting when only the panel is increased and loads dont.
A lot of the older OH services were 60A which is really old and the old ones were usually 100 or 125, maybe 150. All mostly fed with #4 triplex.
When a customer would replace their panel with a 200 they would see we were going to use the same #4 drop and questioned it.
"Hey my electrician said yall would replace that #4 with 1/0. "
Which my reply was are you adding on to the house or putting in a pool or any additional load?
Nope.
OK cool, If it melts down then we'll upgrade it.
 

mike93lx

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Pretty typical.

A lot of the older OH services were 60A which is really old and the old ones were usually 100 or 125, maybe 150. All mostly fed with #4 triplex.
When a customer would replace their panel with a 200 they would see we were going to use the same #4 drop and questioned it.
"Hey my electrician said yall would replace that #4 with 1/0. "
Which my reply was are you adding on to the house or putting in a pool or any additional load?
Nope.
OK cool, If it melts down then we'll upgrade it.
I did panel swaps at two houses on the same mini poco. One was 60a to 100a, they declined to change the overhead. For the second, I asked about going from 100a to 200a and they said the same thing. No service change without a documented higher load. That second one stayed at a 100a main
 

mm08822

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I did panel swaps at two houses on the same mini poco. One was 60a to 100a, they declined to change the overhead. For the second, I asked about going from 100a to 200a and they said the same thing. No service change without a documented higher load. That second one stayed at a 100a main
And OH is easier to get done then u/g. Typically the customer would pay for u/g lateral costs, either entirely or in part.
 
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BurtEggley

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That they let people continue to use the old service lines is encouraging. The house next door upgraded but they also moved the panel 20' from the side of the garage/kitchen to where they took out the brick chimney (most winter days here are no burn days so a fireplace goes mostly unused), and put in a faux fireplace with electric lights that emulate a fire. The POCO guy doing the underground work finished it a day when I was not here but he told the other half that they upgraded the connection in the vault so if we ever want to upgrade we can easily change the underground wires. Maybe I will ask the local building dept how they feel about a 200 amp panel with the original 45 year old service.
 

aggie113

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My fun is currently forcing a transformer upgrade to allow me to install a flexboss 21 based system. POCO won't allow for software limiting and my 15kv transformer wouldn't let me put in what I want solar-wise. Had a 200a service upgrade when detached garage was put up but no transformer change. So solar company says going to a 320a service will have the POCO swap in a 25kv transformer. Wish I could get a 26kv one :) , I'd prefer to run dual FB18's for the setup.
 

dave*99

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There is a lot of concrete that will have to be cut or broken up if new conduit is needed all the way to a new panel.
Is directional boring an option? My POCO pulled my new service cable under 2 driveways using this years ago. They own the cable and paid for install.
 

mm08822

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My fun is currently forcing a transformer upgrade to allow me to install a flexboss 21 based system. POCO won't allow for software limiting and my 15kv transformer wouldn't let me put in what I want solar-wise. Had a 200a service upgrade when detached garage was put up but no transformer change. So solar company says going to a 320a service will have the POCO swap in a 25kv transformer. Wish I could get a 26kv one :) , I'd prefer to run dual FB18's for the setup.
You mean KVA.
Without a load increase, POCO isn't just going to changeout xformers and cabling. Not even sure they would care if you went ahead with a 320A. OR maybe you pay for all their upgrade costs until you have demonstrated actual sustained load increase.

I did a solar cut-in for a guy who wanted a 15kw solar array. POCO wouldn't approve interconnect unless he dropped to 10KW b/c of POCO's marginal wiring on the pole.
 
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BurtEggley

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The technology to mole thru the ground has been around for a while, but they won't use it. The gas line, water line and telephone all go thru that same area, and cross one another.

When the time comes, I guess the first thing will be to pull that one piece of siding off. Then I can see the framing, so can my electrician, and measure the conduit. If it is less than 2" I'll just plan on replacing it by removing some concrete and digging the service up. Then I'll follow the steps to get the dept at the POCO, who does service upgrades, involved.

My electrician told me that he has done several jobs where the NEC allows copper 2/0 for the existing conduit size, but they still make the homeowner bust concrete and put in new conduit. Usually it involves cutting the foundation and then repouring the area where the conduit comes up.

Thank you all for the suggestions.
 
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