How come common metric sets only go to 19mm but common sae sets run to 1” which would be 25mm?

[mikey03]

When you see common sets of tools be it wrenches be it sockets be it whatnot, the metric sizes always include 10 to 19mm and the SAE sometimes stop at 3/4” which is the approximation of 19mm but more oft than not they run to 1”

So leads me to wonder what causes this and I came up with thoughts

maybe metric hardware uses smaller head to body ratio so a metric bolt with a 19mm head is about the same diameter bolt as a 1” sae head. I doubt this but it’s easy to confirm or dispute. I’d honestly assume the same head to body ratio.

could be sae is older cars primarily and older cars used bigger hardware with bigger bolts and cars got smaller over time and used smaller bolts so a newer car only uses up to 19mm heads on most things whereas older cars might run up to 1” heads for the same components. Of course on modern cars you got fastener bigger than 19 head but I mean like for the same component like engine bay mostly caps at 19mm heads

could be because metric don’t really use 20, or 22 or 23 as oft then to run 10 to 24 as your set introduces 3 wasted sizes whereas to run in 1/16 to 1” don’t waste since all sizes are used. And 25 is closest to 1” but that’s not used either

could be tools have gotten more expensive since the old days of sae so a 10 to 19 set today costs about the same adjusted for inflation as 3/8 to 1” back in the days so its like making the bag of potato chips smaller for the same price rather than raise the price. They made the tool set smaller and honestly people don’t miss it as much they can add in singles of 21 and 24 and be good.

So anyways I know that you can buy no skip sets from 10 to 24 but is most common to see sets like 3/8” to 1” and 10mm to 19mm and I’m wondering the reason.

 

[Cruzan80]

Some older sets would jump from 19->22 and stop there. I have seen SAE stop at 3/4, 7/8, 1", 1 1/8" and even 1 1/4" depending. All of this is what I would consider "vintage" sets (at least 40+yrs old) /

 

[Tchicken]

Interesting question - only my swag but I think in my times most everything has gotten smaller. And there is probably a beancounter in that woodpile too - to the OP's last point.

 

[bonneyman]

My thought is those larger sizes are increasingly expensive, and adding them to a set would probably increase the cost so high as to hurt sales. If you're a professional, you'll buy them separately anyway. Maybe?

 

[mngundog]

HF Ikon's (which are the Gold Standard), run 6mm-19mm and 1/4"-1" (14 piece sets)

 

[KnurledNut]

I wish sets skipped 1" and included 1-1/16" instead.

 

[mikedodge]

Ive wondered that too but Once you start getting into those bigger sizes it seems like the differences are less substantial. If you're working with small nuts and bolts SAE fits perfectly and metric is too big or too small or vice versa. When you get into bigger stuff that size difference between the two is usually less of an issue and more forgiving for most things.

 

[5ubtle]

1mm < 1/16"

 

[mikey03]

1mm < 1/16"

Yea but I’m not talking about increments I’m talking about max size of 19mm versus 1 inch as the stopping point

but your point could be there’s more mm tools since the increment size is smaller so they don’t want to sell more expensive sets of more pieces to run to 24mm

 

[Shoreline_]

It's true I can't even remember the last time I used 1" either. 5/8 bolt is usually 15/16 drive size. 3/4 jumps to 1-1/8.

 

[LopezBart]

It's true I can't even remember the last time I used 1" either. 5/8 bolt is usually 15/16 drive size. 3/4 jumps to 1-1/8.

A 5/8"-11 grade 5 bolt is often torqued to 150 ft-lbs, which is the limit for 3/8" drive ratchets. 1/2" bolts (3/4" nuts & bolt heads) are really the working limit for 3/8" drive tools. Above that, go to 1/2" drive.

 

[Shoreline_]

A 5/8"-11 grade 5 bolt is often torqued to 150 ft-lbs, which is the limit for 3/8" drive ratchets. 1/2" bolts (3/4" nuts & bolt heads) are really the working limit for 3/8" drive tools. Above that, go to 1/2" drive.

Exactly. But I was answering the original posted question. So like I said I can't think of why the sets goto 1" and not stop at 15/16.

 

[mikey03]

Exactly. But I was answering the original posted question. So like I said I can't think of why the sets goto 1" and not stop at 15/16.

It’s a round number and people would complain where’s the 1”

 

[mngundog]

Looking at comparable metic/SAE sets, perhaps your original premise was incorrect:

Tekton 19mm-3/4"
Snap-on 19mm-15/16
S/K 22mm-1"
GearW 19mm-1"
Miwaukee 19mm-7/8
Ikon 19mm-1"

 

[Retired dozer fixer]

It's true I can't even remember the last time I used 1" either. 5/8 bolt is usually 15/16 drive size. 3/4 jumps to 1-1/8.

When you get to 5/8” bolts and larger you should be in 1/2” drive or larger territory for proper torque let alone tool longevity

 

[Shoreline_]

When you get to 5/8” bolts and larger you should be in 1/2” drive or larger territory for proper torque let alone tool longevity

Yea for sure. I don't understand why people keep addressing this. I never said anything about 3/8 drives set should contain 1-1/8 socket lol. All I said was sets that go up to 1" like my Wright 1/2" dr set, it seems pointless to throw in the 1" socket.

 

[YesIHaveAHammer]

At one of the popular tool store websites here in Europe, the best selling metric wrench sets go up to these sizes:

1. 24mm
2. 32
3. 22
4. 24
5. 41
6. 32
7. 19
8. 22
9. 19
10. 34

edit - to be clear, those numbers are the largest sizes in each of the top 10 selling sets. For example, the top selling set ends at 24mm, the 2nd best seller ends at 32mm.

 

[Shoreline_]

At one of the popular tool store websites here in Europe, the best selling metric wrench sets go up to these sizes:

1. 24mm
2. 32
3. 22
4. 24
5. 41
6. 32
7. 19
8. 22
9. 19
10. 34

Why are there numbers twice?

 

[Retired dozer fixer]

Yea for sure. I don't understand why people keep addressing this. I never said anything about 3/8 drives set should contain 1-1/8 socket lol. All I said was sets that go up to 1" like my Wright 1/2" dr set, it seems pointless to throw in the 1" socket.

I agree that 1” is a little used size but older medium duty truck and some 1 tons used that size on wheel nuts

 

[YesIHaveAHammer]

Why are there numbers twice?

Those aren't the sizes in the set.

They're the largest sizes in each of the top 10 selling sets.

 

[Shoreline_]

Those aren't the sizes in the set.

They're the largest sizes in each of the top 10 selling sets.

I understand that but how can 22 be best selling twice? It has to be two different types or brands of 22 for it to make sense.

 

[Mr Ratchet]

Because that is where my Hansen socket trays end!

I use 5/8" sockets in 1/4", 3/8", and 1/2" drive sizes. Not every 5/8" nut and bolt has to be torqued to the max. Let the torque amount and space constraints by your guide.

 

[YesIHaveAHammer]

I understand that but how can 22 be best selling twice? It has to be two different types or brands of 22 for it to make sense.

It's exactly that.

3rd best seller: Bahco 111M/11T 11 Piece Combination Spanner Set 8-22mm
8th best seller: Stahlwille 13/9 ’13 Series’ 9 Piece Metric Combination Spanner Set 9-22mm

 

[Retired dozer fixer]

Because that is where my Hansen socket trays end!

I use 5/8" sockets in 1/4", 3/8", and 1/2" drive sizes. Not every 5/8" nut and bolt has to be torqued to the max. Let the torque amount and space constraints by your guide.

I was referring specifically to bolt size not socket size. 5/8” bolts normally use 15/16” tools and 3/4” bolts use 1 1/8”

 

[Gmonkee]

My Wurth set goes to 22mm. I used it more than expected in the shops.

 

[Beerhippie]

Ours go to eleven.

 

[mikedodge]

At one of the popular tool store websites here in Europe, the best selling metric wrench sets go up to these sizes:

1. 24mm
2. 32
3. 22
4. 24
5. 41
6. 32
7. 19
8. 22
9. 19
10. 34

edit - to be clear, those numbers are the largest sizes in each of the top 10 selling sets. For example, the top selling set ends at 24mm, the 2nd best seller ends at 32mm.

I was wondering when I wrote my last post if Eurpoe might be the opposite and go higher in metric as the norm. That pretty much confirms it.

 

[Winterborne]

It's true I can't even remember the last time I used 1" either. 5/8 bolt is usually 15/16 drive size. 3/4 jumps to 1-1/8.

5/8 heavy hex nut is 1-1/16
Galvanic erosion on the nut could necessitate pounding on a 1" socket

 

[mslim]

It's exactly that.

3rd best seller: Bahco 111M/11T 11 Piece Combination Spanner Set 8-22mm
8th best seller: Stahlwille 13/9 ’13 Series’ 9 Piece Metric Combination Spanner Set 9-22mm

I have that stahlwille set and love it, but i had to add 21mm for the dellorto phm float bowl nuts on my bike. I'm not sure the German mechanics have a use for 21mm.

 

[AEAdam]

Exactly. But I was answering the original posted question. So like I said I can't think of why the sets goto 1" and not stop at 15/16.

Right! 1” is not a super common size, while 15/16” is a std for 9/16” hardware and a heavy hex head for 1/2”. 1-1/16” is really the next really common std.

1” is the std for 5/8” but 1-1/16” is a common heavy hex version for 5/8”.

I think the answer to the question is the SAE heavy hex series uses bigger tools for a given thread size. Heavy hex is very common in inch sizes, but not super common in metric.

So for bolts around 1/2”, you need 3/4” for many, or 15/16” for heavy hex 1/2”. 15/16” is the std wrench for 9/16”

For M12 bolts you need 17, 18, or 19mm wrenches. For rarer heavy hex, you’ll need 21 or 22mm. Step to M14 and you need 21 or 22mm

So I think the answer is, smart manufacturers are making tools to fit specific thread stds, based on the predictable torque reqts for those threads.

 

[Shoreline_]

Right! 1” is not a super common size, while 15/16” is a std for 9/16” hardware and a heavy hex head for 1/2”. 1-1/16” is really the next really common std.

1” is the std for 5/8” but 1-1/16” is a common heavy hex version for 5/8”.

I think the answer to the question is the SAE heavy hex series uses bigger tools for a given thread size. Heavy hex is very common in inch sizes, but not super common in metric.

So for bolts around 1/2”, you need 3/4” for many, or 15/16” for heavy hex 1/2”. 15/16” is the std wrench for 9/16”

For M12 bolts you need 17, 18, or 19mm wrenches. For rarer heavy hex, you’ll need 21 or 22mm. Step to M14 and you need 21 or 22mm

So I think the answer is, smart manufacturers are making tools to fit specific thread stds, based on the predictable torque reqts for those threads.

15/16 is for a 5/8 bolt. I deal with it every day. Sump cover bolts Sullair TS20.

https://boltdepot.com/Fastener-Information/Bolts/US-Bolt-Head-Size?srsltid=AfmBOorkvqXln9HSSvmg9i1L1eCHmmUTnozlV8FcexNXLKKYly_Rlh2c

 

[KnurledNut]

7/8 for 1/2 heavy
1-1/16 for 5/8 heavy
1-1/4 for 3/4 heavy
1-7/16 for 7/8 heavy
1-5/8 for 1 heavy

3/4 for 1/2 reg
15/16 for 5/8 reg
1-1/8 for 3/4 reg
1-5/16 for 7/8 reg
1-1/2 for 1 reg

 

[fishwatcher]

Cost and marketing - I wrote this earlier today but didn’t post.. so some of this has been said by folks smarter than me on this.

I’m making a bunch of assumptions, being a DIY’er and not a professional wrench turner.

1” is a nice, round number.. and I’m assuming there are 1” bolts that aren’t uncommon.

Personally, I have exactly one use case for 1” wrench and that’s a bike cassette locking tool. Other than that, I have a 3/4” and 17mm bolts that lock down some of my vises. Turns out I also have a 22mm tool to remove and install a DT Swiss star ratchet hub part. Hmm .. I think I need to hunt for a 22mm combination wrench now.. even though I’m probably never going to use that install tool again.

Most home users probably won’t use anything more than a 19mm, so make it cheaper for them to buy a set. Then, make available extended sized sockets for those who need them and charge accordingly.

I have two inexpensive, blow mold sets of sockets in SAE and Metric. They max out at 19 mm and 3/4” sockets. I hardly ever use my sockets, and yet I find myself wanting to find USA vintage or high quality Japanese or Taiwan made deep socket metric socket sets for… well because garage journal exists and tells me I need higher quality tools. Weird?!

My Craftsman combination wrench set goes up to 19mm and my Blackhawk by Proto SAE set goes up to 1”.

 

[Retired dozer fixer]

Right! 1” is not a super common size, while 15/16” is a std for 9/16” hardware and a heavy hex head for 1/2”. 1-1/16” is really the next really common std.

1” is the std for 5/8” but 1-1/16” is a common heavy hex version for 5/8”.

I think the answer to the question is the SAE heavy hex series uses bigger tools for a given thread size. Heavy hex is very common in inch sizes, but not super common in metric.

So for bolts around 1/2”, you need 3/4” for many, or 15/16” for heavy hex 1/2”. 15/16” is the std wrench for 9/16”

For M12 bolts you need 17, 18, or 19mm wrenches. For rarer heavy hex, you’ll need 21 or 22mm. Step to M14 and you need 21 or 22mm

So I think the answer is, smart manufacturers are making tools to fit specific thread stds, based on the predictable torque reqts for those threads.

Do you work in the power industry? Standard hardware on heavy equipment till it went metric still is 5/8” bolts are 15/16” tools and 3/4” are 1 1/8”. 7/8” are 1 5/16” and 1” fasteners are 1 1/2”. This whole thread has been derailed by suggestions for larger size tools. Believe me I have been there and done that for over 40 years. Never saw ******* sizes unless some dumb *** put it on. The OP showed the picture of a small John Deere 350 dozer. Don’t think there is anything on it over 1” bolt size. Not wrench size for those that get confused. And on that old tractor it’s all standard hardware

 

[Retired dozer fixer]

Sorry but part of this should have been in large wrench thread. Getting old can’t do 2 things at once

 

[mikey03]

Sorry but part of this should have been in large wrench thread. Getting old can’t do 2 things at once

That thread is specific about wrenches above 1.5” and I’m asking about wrenches sized 3/4” to 1”

 

[BWWgarage]

When you see common sets of tools be it wrenches be it sockets be it whatnot, the metric sizes always include 10 to 19mm and the SAE sometimes stop at 3/4” which is the approximation of 19mm but more oft than not they run to 1”

So leads me to wonder what causes this and I came up with thoughts

maybe metric hardware uses smaller head to body ratio so a metric bolt with a 19mm head is about the same diameter bolt as a 1” sae head. I doubt this but it’s easy to confirm or dispute. I’d honestly assume the same head to body ratio.

could be sae is older cars primarily and older cars used bigger hardware with bigger bolts and cars got smaller over time and used smaller bolts so a newer car only uses up to 19mm heads on most things whereas older cars might run up to 1” heads for the same components. Of course on modern cars you got fastener bigger than 19 head but I mean like for the same component like engine bay mostly caps at 19mm heads

could be because metric don’t really use 20, or 22 or 23 as oft then to run 10 to 24 as your set introduces 3 wasted sizes whereas to run in 1/16 to 1” don’t waste since all sizes are used. And 25 is closest to 1” but that’s not used either

could be tools have gotten more expensive since the old days of sae so a 10 to 19 set today costs about the same adjusted for inflation as 3/8 to 1” back in the days so its like making the bag of potato chips smaller for the same price rather than raise the price. They made the tool set smaller and honestly people don’t miss it as much they can add in singles of 21 and 24 and be good.

So anyways I know that you can buy no skip sets from 10 to 24 but is most common to see sets like 3/8” to 1” and 10mm to 19mm and I’m wondering the reason.

It’s what the market wants. I don’t know why the market wants it this way though? Like others have said, not a ton of uses for DIY’ers for 19mm+ and those extra, 20-24mm 1.6x the $. For those that want/need them, they won’t have issue paying for them. But the extra 60% price could keep an average fella from buying the bigger set.

 

[Gangly]

Looking at comparable metic/SAE sets, perhaps your original premise was incorrect:

Tekton 19mm-3/4"
Snap-on 19mm-15/16
S/K 22mm-1"
GearW 19mm-1"
Miwaukee 22mm-1"
Ikon 19mm-1"

FIFY

 

[Nobody-named-Olli]

I won’t touch upon SAE.

In metric (DIN) 10 - 13 - 17 - 19 used to be what “Joe Average” would “encounter”. And is much more likely to add 8 & 7 to that before anything bigger.

Then ISO came along and 17 became 16, 19 became 18, (and 22 became 21). However that didn’t make 17, 19 (& 22) obsolete.

Throwing JIS into the mix 12 & 14 become relevant.

For bicycles 15 is relevant.

(For M6 flange nuts (EN 24032) 11 is relevant.)

So if you live in ”metric world” & have a no-skip 10-19 set that will do more than “Joe Average” ever needs. And again, is much more likely to add 8 & 7 to that before anything else. And maybe if “our” “Joe Average” is an avid DIYer he goes for an additional 22 for M14 connection found on tools like mixers, angle grinders, wheel barrow axles. (…)

And if you go back to strictly DIN days, a typical 1/2” socket set could look like this (Dowidat 90C):


10-11-13-14-15-17-19-22-24-27-30-32

Random trivia: The only time where someone might have given the idea of “comparable SAE & metric sets” some thoughts where the early, early days of “discounter tools”. When I was a kid, it was not uncommon that discounter’s promotional socket sets (sold twice a year or so) would actually come with SAE and metric side by side. Which made for ridiculously amounts of sockets in a set … (I recycled at least 3 of those sets back from when my parents simply couldn’t say “no” to their son and bought these kits …)

And I must admit, I have absolutely no idea why these kits were offered the way they were. Up until this thread, I had completely forgotten about them.

For any professional in “metric world” 10-19 covers the most basic needs - complete no brainer to have those sizes.

Kind regards,
Olli

 

[mm08822]

@Nobody-named-Olli , I always wondered about this: above you mention 1/2" socket set with metric sized sockets......so the ratchet and extensions are 1/2" as expected. Was this drive size referred to as 1/2" in Europe or ? and same for 1/4", 3/8", 3/4" drives?

Was there ever a true metric sized drive in place?