Add Interlock to panel or bite the bullet and upgrade?

[kaehlin]

I'm hoping for input on my home panel. I'd like to add an interlock for a generator inlet. My service is 125 amp, the panel has been added to over the years and is pretty full. There's a 50 amp subpanel added for a basement remodel (lights / outlets / bathroom) and a 100 amp subpanel for garage (heater and 240 outlet). There are a few tandem breakers in there as well.



Eventually I would like to upgrade the to 200 amp service and get a stationary generator, but that's not in the cards right now. I'm wondering if the circuits could be moved around to allow space for the generator interlock, or if this is at the point of, "dude, just upgrade the service now, you're asking for trouble."

The service seems to be functioning just fine, no breakers tripping or other issues. We have gas heat and hot water, and I would not expect to run the central a/c on the generator. Garage heater and outlet are only used occasionally and could be left off in an outage. We seem to have outages more and more frequently, but so far they are pretty short and I'd just like to get by with a medium portable generator to keep the basics going. I haven't thought too much about sizing what I need, wanted to get feedback first on whether an interlock is feasible or if I should really budget a new panel first.

I'll pay an electrician to do the work either way.

Appreciate your input!

 

[larry4406]

Be prepared when the questions come, so take the panel cover off now for pictures.

The sparkies will want to determine if the knockouts at upper right and bottom row are available with stabs. They will also want to know the make/brand of the panel.

With this information, the interlock method can be assessed.

 

[mike93lx]

Why do you want 200a service?

There is nothing wrong with subs, but I'd be curious of rhe condition of the interior of that main panel

 

[JohnX14]

That's a 30 circuit Bryant BR series panel. Now Eaton. Could be Challenger or T&B, they were all the same. That's proabably mid-90-'s. Could be '80's There won't be stabs next to the main, nor on the bottom, most likely. The panel is probably not rated for the tandem breakers. You could double up each dining room circuit with a kitchen circuit, for extra space. I don't know anyone that actyually uses their dining room plugs

I'd have no problem installing an interlock and running a portable generator. An automatic standby is not cheap.

 

[kaehlin]

Be prepared when the questions come, so take the panel cover off now for pictures.

The sparkies will want to determine if the knockouts at upper right and bottom row are available with stabs. They will also want to know the make/brand of the panel.

With this information, the interlock method can be assessed.

Thanks! I will not be able to take the front off until later today but will do that if it helps.

Why do you want 200a service?

There is nothing wrong with subs, but I'd be curious of rhe condition of the interior of that main panel

200 Amp would be to future-proof as much as anything. We will charge electric cars in the garage, and a couple of electricians have advised we'll be pushing it with ac + charging + say, oven + dryer. No electric car yet so it's not been an issue, but we're likely to stay here for the forseeable future.

That's a 30 circuit Bryant BR series panel. Now Eaton. Could be Challenger or T&B, they were all the same. That's proabably mid-90-'s. Could be '80's There won't be stabs next to the main, nor on the bottom, most likely. The panel is probably not rated for the tandem breakers. You could double up each dining room circuit with a kitchen circuit, for extra space. I don't know anyone that actyually uses their dining room plugs

I'd have no problem installing an interlock and running a portable generator. An automatic standby is not cheap.

The house was built in 1971 and I think it is original, so it may be a bit older. Is "panel is probably not rated for tandem breakers" a concern? Automatic standby is a long-term idea, probably something I would do as I age a bit more and the creature comforts become more important. Right now I'm not ready to do that. And yeah, we probably have like 2 amps in the dining room at the max when everything is on.

 

[mike93lx]

200 Amp would be to future-proof as much as anything. We will charge electric cars in the garage, and a couple of electricians have advised we'll be pushing it with ac + charging + say, oven + dryer. No electric car yet so it's not been an issue, but we're likely to stay here for the forseeable future.

They want to sell you and upgrade. You can easily handle a 30a evse on that setup. Charging is usually done at night when you aren't cooking

 

[PCustoms]

Back waaaay up for a minute:



I'm not aware of an interlock that will work on that "main" in the upper left, but I could very well be wrong.

Is there a panel or disconnect upstream of this?

Also, what is that brown material that appears to be covering the left side of the cover?

 

[mm08822]

They exist...

 

[PCustoms]

They exist...

Sometimes the fastest correct answer comes from posting bad info

 

[mike93lx]

Also, what is that brown material that appears to be covering the left side of the cover?

Looks like rockwool

 

[mm08822]

They want to sell you and upgrade. You can easily handle a 30a evse on that setup. Charging is usually done at night when you aren't cooking

Short of adding more subpanels, OP already beyond # branch circuits panel is rated for.

The choice is add another bandaid or pull them all off and upgrade to a larger main panel and install the new panel making provision for a whole ATS.

Could even replace this panel with a 200amp 40/60 panel. Would need a hold down kit to backfeed a 100a cb used as a main cb. Re-identify main cb.

 

[JohnX14]

The house was built in 1971 and I think it is original, so it may be a bit older. Is "panel is probably not rated for tandem breakers" a concern? Automatic standby is a long-term idea, probably something I would do as I age a bit more and the creature comforts become more important. Right now I'm not ready to do that. And yeah, we probably have like 2 amps in the dining room at the max when everything is on.

That panel isn't from 1971. It's early to mid '90's. The original panel was probably out of spaces and it was upgraded to the 30 circuit. Most of the 100 amp panels were 20 circuit. (At least the BR series) It could even be late '90's or early 2000's.

 

[Codyboy]

They exist...

$50 for a molded piece of plastic and a couple screws is beyond dumb.
I put one on my square D panel and their price was ridiculous as well, so I made my own. And not even sure they would gave had one for my setup anyway.

 

[JohnX14]

Short of adding more subpanels, OP already beyond # branch circuits panel is rated for.

The choice is add another bandaid or pull them all off and upgrade to a larger main panel and install the new panel making provision for a whole ATS.

Could even replace this panel with a 200amp 40/60 panel. Would need a hold down kit to backfeed a 100a cb used as a main cb. A

A lot that he could do. But replacing the 100 amp panel (even without upgrading the service) with an ATS and new 40 or 40/60 panel is way more than he needs to spend to accomplish what he is trying to do. And while those tandems are not rated for that panel, they are in half the homes I see. (Maybe slight exaggeration, but not by much.) And I'd say half the loadcenters that were installed from the early 80's to early '00's in this area were BR panels. Probably 75%

I'd leave the panel, possibly combine a few circuits, and add the interlock. When he's ready to upgrade and spend $10 - $20K he can do it 'right'. This isn't at all an unsafe situation. Yes there are too many branch circuits. OK, no argument. Combine some. Or band-aid yet another subpanel or relocate these to that existing subpanel. I've got a full 40 circuit main panel and a full 20 or 30 circuit subpanel in my house. I could combine a number of them and end up with far fewer. It's just how I chose to wire things. I can easily combine dozens of these. Larger scale than OP, but I already identified a few that could be combined in all likelihood.

 

[larry4406]

$50 for a molded piece of plastic and a couple screws is beyond dumb.
I put one on my square D panel and their price was ridiculous as well, so I made my own. And not even sure they would gave had one for my setup anyway.

But their's has some sort of listing identifier and tamper screws.

Nice job by the way.

 

[PCustoms]

$50 for a molded piece of plastic and a couple screws is beyond dumb.
I put one on my square D panel and their price was ridiculous as well, so I made my own. And not even sure they would gave had one for my setup anyway.

Why do you have 2 double pole breakers for your generator?

 

[PCustoms]

Looks like rockwool

Maybe.

But why is in encroaching on the panel?

 

[JohnX14]

$50 for a molded piece of plastic and a couple screws is beyond dumb.
I put one on my square D panel and their price was ridiculous as well, so I made my own. And not even sure they would gave had one for my setup anyway.

While I agree, in principle, I'll pay the $50 for one specifically manufactured for the purpose simply for liability.

I've made my own interlock for a subpanel with a 100 amp 'main' (no it isn't a main breaker but it supplied power to the subpanel rather than using the lugs) on top left and 30 amp generator feed on top right and connected the handles so that if one was on it physically turned the other off and vice versa. But not for a customer.

And I like your interlock. I almost guarantee that it's already made, but it's probably more like $125.

 

[JohnX14]

Why do you have 2 double pole breakers for your generator?

Good point, I didn't even notice the writing at first take.

 

[mike93lx]

Short of adding more subpanels, OP already beyond # branch circuits panel is rated for.

The choice is add another bandaid or pull them all off and upgrade to a larger main panel and install the new panel making provision for a whole ATS.

Could even replace this panel with a 200amp 40/60 panel. Would need a hold down kit to backfeed a 100a cb used as a main cb. Re-identify main cb.

I agree that a panel swap probably makes sense, but a 200a upgrade is not required for "future proofing" or because of an EV.

I'd be looking at a 40/60 as well

 

[JohnX14]

I don't get the rockwool surrounding the panel, either, with the right side apparently not having it.

 

[Norcal]

They want to sell you and upgrade. You can easily handle a 30a evse on that setup. Charging is usually done at night when you aren't cooking

If the house was built in 1971, it is a Bryant, & Siemens (the main) is not UL classified for BR panels.

 

[mike93lx]

Maybe.

But why is in encroaching on the panel?

Open walls?

Don't know why that matters

 

[JohnX14]

If the house was built in 1971, it is a Bryant, & Siemens (the main) is not UL classified for BR panels.

I hadn't noticed the Siemens main, and 125A at that. This looks like a Main Lug panel that someone 'converted' to a main breaker panel. A pic with cover off would help, along with a picture of the label on the inside of the cover. But maybe not. Maybe someone stuck a 125A siemens breaker in when the original MB toasted. Again a pic would help.

 

[PCustoms]

Open walls?

Don't know why that matters

Well I didn't ask you anyway

 

[mm08822]

$50 for a molded piece of plastic and a couple screws is beyond dumb.
I put one on my square D panel and their price was ridiculous as well, so I made my own. And not even sure they would gave had one for my setup anyway.

But when a contractor is doing this and a permit is pulled, you don't cobble up your own ****.

There is no money to be made if you have to go back and re-do work. And you will look like a hack in the customer's eyes.

 

[Codyboy]

Why do you have 2 double pole breakers for your generator?

It's a weird setup. I have a 400A service . That 150A panel (garage only) has the incoming breaker for the generator and the other 40A breaker feeds the other panel which goes to the house.
So one 40A in and one 40A out.

 

[mm08822]

I agree that a panel swap probably makes sense, but a 200a upgrade is not required for "future proofing" or because of an EV.

I'd be looking at a 40/60 as well

I never said 200a upgrade.

If an xfr switch is in the future, finish the 200 amp upgrade then. Ripping all the old stuff off the side of the house gives installer maximum flexibility for a good looking finished job, while adding in the xfer switch as part of the 200a upgrade.

Edit: clarity

 

[JohnX14]

It's a weird setup. I have a 400A service . That 150A panel (garage only) has the incoming breaker for the generator and the other 40A breaker feeds the other panel which goes to the house.
So one 40A in and one 40A out.

Well that explains it. It is definitely an atypical setup, but makes sense now.

 

[mike93lx]

I never said 200a upgrade.

If an xfr switch is in the future, finish the 200 amp upgrade then. Ripping all the old stuff off the side of the house gives installer maximum flexibility for a good looking finished job.

The OP did

 

[mike93lx]

It's a weird setup. I have a 400A service . That 150A panel (garage only) has the incoming breaker for the generator and the other 40A breaker feeds the other panel which goes to the house.
So one 40A in and one 40A out.

Ah, I like that interlock setup. I have a 320a service as well and was trying to come up with a good way to feed both panels, but gave up and just did one. I moved a couple things over to the connected panel and have enough stuff covered to be good enough.

 

[mm08822]

A lot that he could do. But replacing the 100 amp panel (even without upgrading the service) with an ATS and new 40 or 40/60 panel is way more than he needs to spend to accomplish what he is trying to do. And while those tandems are not rated for that panel, they are in half the homes I see. (Maybe slight exaggeration, but not by much.) And I'd say half the loadcenters that were installed from the early 80's to early '00's in this area were BR panels. Probably 75%

I'd leave the panel, possibly combine a few circuits, and add the interlock. When he's ready to upgrade and spend $10 - $20K he can do it 'right'. This isn't at all an unsafe situation. Yes there are too many branch circuits. OK, no argument. Combine some. Or band-aid yet another subpanel or relocate these to that existing subpanel. I've got a full 40 circuit main panel and a full 20 or 30 circuit subpanel in my house. I could combine a number of them and end up with far fewer. It's just how I chose to wire things. I can easily combine dozens of these. Larger scale than OP, but I already identified a few that could be combined in all likelihood.

ATS was not part of adding an interlock or suggesting when changing out the panel. I was referring to when wiring in the new panel use separate ground blocks....separate grds and neutrals as you are putting it back together.

As for tandems/quads, the panel will take 30 more as is, just making it a bigger non-compliance. If bandaids are your thing as a homeowner, have at it, go as cheap as you can. Slap in the tandems. quads, double-up existing circuits, another sub-panel, make your own interlock, blah, blah. You do, you.
I'm talking about using paid labor for the best value going forward (as the OP is planning to do), not finding how to do it with on smallest shoe-string budget possible.
Sure, wire nut a few circuits together with a pigtail to free up 2 spaces, add a purchased interlock (as in UL Listed parts), a PIB and cabling. Good. Done. Still, the rest of the panel is hack.

When you go to sell, some of this **** will haunt you and you might not have the time shop for quotes.

 

[mm08822]

$50 for a molded piece of plastic and a couple screws is beyond dumb.
I put one on my square D panel and their price was ridiculous as well, so I made my own. And not even sure they would gave had one for my setup anyway.

Nope, that is not a standard part so you had no other choice. You also had a bunch of time invested vs just clicking from your Lazy-Boy. But this technically could get failed anyway for that.

Exactly what is the 40A out doing? Feeding the other panel you stated. How is that interlocked with its source of grid power?

 

[JohnX14]

ATS was not part of adding an interlock or suggesting when changing out the panel. I was referring to when wiring in the new panel use separate ground blocks....separate grds and neutrals as you are putting it back together.

Well now that you spell this out, I can accept that, but as it read "making provisions for a whole ATS", I didn't take that as simply landing grounded and grounding conductors on separate bars and maintaining the connection until an ATS was installed in the future.

As for tandems/quads, the panel will take 30 more as is, just making it a bigger non-compliance. If bandaids are your thing as a homeowner, have at it, go as cheap as you can. Slap in the tandems. quads, double-up existing circuits, another sub-panel, make your own interlock, blah, blah. You do, you.

Double taps are not an issue, if the breaker is rated, and certainly doubling up one or more circuits with a pigtail is not unsafe in any way, inherently. It depends on what is wired in the branch circuits.

And I'll agree I read some of your posts too quick, you suggested a 200 amp panel with a 100 amp breaker for a hold down kit. I misread that. If I were going that far, I'd replace the whole service, but I get your point now.

I'm talking about using paid labor for the best value going forward (as the OP is planning to do), not finding how to do it with on smallest shoe-string budget possible.
Sure, wire nut a few circuits together with a pigtail to free up 2 spaces, add a purchased interlock (as in UL Listed parts), a PIB and cabling. Good. Done. Still, the rest of the panel is hack.

The tone of the OP didn't sound like he was cheaping out, he plans to use paid labor. But the responses here can result in $1K - $10K in paid labor.

When you go to sell, some of this **** will haunt you and you might not have the time shop for quotes.

Yes the famous home inspectors will call out double taps and some of the other **** spouted here. In fact, the breakers in this post are not listed for the panel in OP. (most likely, we haven't seen the panel model number and label on inside cover.) And here in MA, we amend the NEC, if the installation being discussed were done with a permit, the AHJ has the authority over accepting the equipment, whether listed or not.

Short of adding more subpanels, OP already beyond # branch circuits panel is rated for.

The choice is add another bandaid or pull them all off and upgrade to a larger main panel and install the new panel making provision for a whole ATS.

Could even replace this panel with a 200amp 40/60 panel. Would need a hold down kit to backfeed a 100a cb used as a main cb. Re-identify main cb.

 

[Codyboy]

Nope, that is not a standard part so you had no other choice. You also had a bunch of time invested vs just clicking from your Lazy-Boy. But this technically could get failed anyway for that.

Exactly what is the 40A out doing? Feeding the other panel you stated. How is that interlocked with its source of grid power?

It's not. It feeds to the load side of a main only panel. Just have to turn off that main.
When we sell the house all of that will be removed.
I could install a 200A panel that had a breaker to backfeed and install an interlock but not going to.

 

[mm08822]

It's not. It feeds to the load side of a main only panel. Just have to turn off that main.
When we sell the house all of that will be removed.
I could install a 200A panel that had a breaker to backfeed and install an interlock but not going to.

So, in its entirety, it is still not properly interlocked!

 

[Codyboy]

So, in its entirety, it is still not properly interlocked!

Yes that's correct. But it's better than it was before with nothing at all.
I did add a note written in sharpie on the other panel too.

 

[sparky 1971]

I'd just take the combine the two breakers that are labeled South bedroom into one as well as the two labeled family room, and move the laundry room breaker down two spaces to make the required room. And not lose any sleep over the Siemens breaker or the tandems. Or, if I decided to be **** about it, the two bedroom light circuits on the 15 amp tandem could be doubled up on to one breaker then double up the two dining room receptacle circuits to make room for the microwave or refrigerator or just double those two up and get rid of the tandem. And still not worry about the Siemens 125.

 

[kaehlin]

Couple of photos with the front off. The panel is close tot he wall to the left, and the insulation guys ran the insulation up to the left edge of the panel. The cover comes off and on ok so I never did anything about it, but it could easily be trimmed back.

If panel replacement without service upgrade makes sense, I could go that way too. I just had them in my head as a combined job.

 

[larry4406]

Looks like you have stabs upper right for a 2-pole breaker.

Edit - I wrongly reported seeing 2 stabs bottom row.

Easy.