Can I damage this bearing with heat?

[Burt Shaver]

I was trying to change this sleeve on this PTO axel for a 1951 Ferguson TEA30 today. Had the axel in the freezer and I pre warmed up this sleeve and the sleeve below the bearing ( not visible in the picture). I new it was going to be a tight fit because I measure the ID of thie old sleeve that the oil seal rides in and the ID of the new sleeve was significantly smaller, can’t remember the exact measurements as I’m out grocery shopping now and notes are at home,
Anyways it was going on not to badly, putting a fair bit of pressure on the handle of the 20 ton press but it was going, thought I was home free but then it felt like it bottomed out. It hadn’t, it still needs to go about 1 more mm.
Can I heat this sleeve with it being so close to the bearing? The bearing is open on both sides, not a sealed bearing. To me it looks like it’s all steel?

 

[The Cobbler]

concentrate the heat on the sleeve , get in & out quickly so to speak and you should be OK.
but the warranty is limited to the value of this post , which is zero!

 

[Burt Shaver]

concentrate the heat on the sleeve , get in & out quickly so to speak and you should be OK.
but the warranty is limited to the value of this post , which is zero!

Thank you, unfortunately I’ve already applied some heat with the torch while the bearing and sleeve were close. I did a quick little search after I posted this and read not to get the bearing over 250 I think it was. I’m going to make a little shield with a u in it so it fits around the axel to shield away some of the heat.

 

[Viper98912]

What is the ball cage made out of? The balls and the inner/outer rings should normally be ok, but the ball cage isn't always made out of a rigid metal, if metal at all.

 

[Burt Shaver]

What is the ball cage made out of? The balls and the inner/outer rings should normally be ok, but the ball cage isn't always made out of a rigid metal, if metal at all.

I don’t know, I will have a look, I may have already wrecked the bearing. It was quite when new, now it has a sound. Didn’t have heat right in the bearing, only for 7 to 8 seconds, pointed away from the bearing and about 1/2” from the bearing but may have gotten hot enough to damage it.
The bearing looked dry to me, but even though there was no grease in it, maybe it had some light oil on it that has dissipated?

 

[PCustoms]

I don’t know, I will have a look, I may have already wrecked the bearing. It was quite when new, now it has a sound. Didn’t have heat right in the bearing, only for 7 to 8 seconds, pointed away from the bearing and about 1/2” from the bearing but may have gotten hot enough to damage it.
The bearing looked dry to me, but even though there was no grease in it, maybe it had some light oil on it that has dissipated?

It's probably pushed out of shape and "crunchy".

You pushed on the inner race, correct?

 

[Burt Shaver]

It's probably pushed out of shape and "crunchy".

You pushed on the inner race, correct?

Yes,

 

[OccupantRJ]

Side note for those who do not already know. A bearing can be placed on the crown of a powered up incandescent light bulb to heat it up for installation. A chilled shaft with warm bearing installs easier. The sleeves may have shrunk into place before you reached your goal.

 

[PCustoms]

...crown of a powered up incandescent light bulb...

A what now?

 

[OccupantRJ]

A what now?

One of dem dare hot light bulbs from Amazon.

 

[Burt Shaver]

Also, The new sleeves ID measured 28.26mm and the old sleeve measured at 29.95mm ID. I’m not sure what this sleeve is called, shrink sleeve? I know it’s for the oil seal to ride on. I searched up about the difference in ID diameter and AI said it’s fairly common for the old false e to have stretched a bit? It concerned me but here I am, went ahead and tried to press it on.
I knew this would go bad, with me doing it for my uncle. I’ve changed plenty of different bearings with never an issue, but I had difficulty sourcing the parts for this and ended up with this kit from EBay

 

[PCustoms]

Also, The new sleeves ID measured 28.26mm and the old sleeve measured at 29.95mm ID.

What are you calling the sleeve, and how did you measure it?

Edit: not that I'm out of the sun I can see the pic better. So you pressed on the collar/sleeve above the bearing, but didn't touch the bearing. If your measurements are correct that seems like a huge difference.

What does the spline measure?

Where is the gap that indicates you need to keep pressing?

 

[OccupantRJ]

Also, The new sleeves ID measured 28.26mm and the old sleeve measured at 29.95mm ID. I’m not sure what this sleeve is called, shrink sleeve? I know it’s for the oil seal to ride on. I searched up about the difference in ID diameter and AI said it’s fairly common for the old false e to have stretched a bit? It concerned me but here I am, went ahead and tried to press it on.
I knew this would go bad, with me doing it for my uncle. I’ve changed plenty of different bearings with never an issue, but I had difficulty sourcing the parts for this and ended up with this kit from EBay

In millwright work we did a lot of shrink fits for shaft couplings and such. The rule of thumb in the field for shrink fit was .001 undersize per inch of diameter on the female part. For a rotational fit it was .001 oversize. I have done shafts that were 12”diameter where the coupling hub was .024 undersize before install, The shaft key was 2”x 2”x18” long and was hand filed and fitted beforehand. I loved it.

 

[MovingAlong]

I know it’s for the oil seal to ride on.

Forgive my ignorance, but does it really need to be "driven home" then? Or will it assemble just fine as is?

 

[Burt Shaver]

Forgive my ignorance, but does it really need to be "driven home" then? Or will it assemble just fine as is?

There is a circlip that goes on the axel after the sleeve.

 

[BillK]

Also, The new sleeves ID measured 28.26mm and the old sleeve measured at 29.95mm ID.

Woah !!!!!!!! That is a .060" difference ???????? Something is not right. Probably the new "sleeve" It should probably not be more than .001" - .002" press fit.

Is this the piece you are talking about ?

 

[Burt Shaver]

What are you calling the sleeve, and how did you measure it?

The piece above the bearing, there’s another spacer below the bearing but not visible in the picture.

What does the spline measure?

The spline measured 31.30mm and 31.10, 2 measurements are different so I guess I wasn’t square on the one measurement and will say 31.10mm. This is supposed to be an 1 1/8” axel shaft which equals 28.575mm

Where is the gap that indicates you need to keep pressing?

There is still roughly 1mm between the shrink collar and the bearing.

 

[PCustoms]

Woah !!!!!!!! That is a .060" difference ???????? Something is not right. Probably the new "sleeve" It should probably not be more than .001" - .002" press fit.

I'm going to add this to the rant thread.

People that mix metric and standard.

 

[PCustoms]

The spline measured 31.30mm and 31.10, 2 measurements are different so I guess I wasn’t square on the one measurement and will say 31.10mm.

How are you measuring this?

Stretching a 28.26mm sleeve over 31.10mm is a bit out there...

 

[BillK]

One more probably stupid question but i have been fooled by it myself. Are you sure the press has not reached the end of its travel ? That sleeve and bearing should probably take less than a couple of tons to press on. I do axle bearings with retaining rings and they hardly move the gauge on my 18 ton press.

 

[BillK]

I'm going to add this to the rant thread.

People that mix metric and standard.

Sorry. I do SAE. And I bet 99% of people on here do the same.

But for what its worth the press fit should be in the area of .050mm Not 1.5 mm

 

[PCustoms]

Sorry. I do SAE. And I bet 99% of people on here do the same.

Drive me bonkers. Most of my prints are metric, I have a few shops that insist on converting, about half of them make errors due to the conversions...

But for what its worth the press fit should be in the area of .050mm Not 1.5 mm

Yeah, I've seen some whacked out fit call-outs but this would take the cake...

 

[Burt Shaver]

Woah !!!!!!!! That is a .060" difference ???????? Something is not right. Probably the new "sleeve" It should probably not be more than .001" - .002" press fit.

Is this the piece you are talking about ?

Yes, this is the piece I’m talking about, I think I’ve seen it referenced as a shrink collar, but not sure. I was concerned about the difference in size between the axel and the ID of this collar but decided to go ahead party because of the name shrink fit collar. I thought that maybe it was different than anything I had pressed on before.
Now with the new bearing making noise and this collar now obviously being the wrong ID I think I’m just going to throw the axel in the freeze and heat the heck out of that collar and press this stuff back off and see if I can source the proper parts.
The bearing pressed on nicely, just the right usually pressure on the 20T press, but I was seriously torqueing on the press handle for that collar.

 

[Burt Shaver]

One more probably stupid question but i have been fooled by it myself. Are you sure the press has not reached the end of its travel ? That sleeve and bearing should probably take less than a couple of tons to press on. I do axle bearings with retaining rings and they hardly move the gauge on my 18 ton press.

I’ve done stupid things before, I will take a look next time I’m out in the shop

 

[Burt Shaver]

How are you measuring this?

Stretching a 28.26mm sleeve over 31.10mm is a bit out there...

I agree that it is a bit out there. I’m going to Check a few sites again to see what they are calling this collar that the oil seal lip rides on. I’m thinking they called it a shrink fit collar or just shrink collar and that threw me off.
Would that collar be the same as pressing on any other bearing? Where the female is .010” smaller than the male?

 

[rust in the eye]

I say carry on with force provided you are bearing upon the inner race of that bearing.

 

[Burt Shaver]

I say carry on with force provided you are bearing upon the inner race of that bearing.

That was my initial thought as well, but I’m worried about the bearing that’s making a little noise now. I would hate for it to blow apart once back in the housing .

 

[PCustoms]

That was my initial thought as well, but I’m worried about the bearing that’s making a little noise now. I would hate for it to blow apart once back in the housing .

You still haven't told me how you're measuring the ID OD you have us, or confirmed if you are trying to press the bearing. If you have a gap between the collar and bearing right now, unless you're pressing the shaft/bearing into the collar, there shouldn't be an issue.

If you're trying to press the bearing down into the collar with a 1mm+ interfere fit then yeah, I'd bet it's trash

 

[OccupantRJ]

I agree that it is a bit out there. I’m going to Check a few sites again to see what they are calling this collar that the oil seal lip rides on. I’m thinking they called it a shrink fit collar or just shrink collar and that threw me off.
Would that collar be the same as pressing on any other bearing? Where the female is .010” smaller than the male?

Did you mean one thousandth rather than ten thousandths? A bearing press fit on a 1-1/8” bearing should be in the range of half a thousandth or so or the bearing faces distortion.

 

[Burt Shaver]

You still haven't told me how you're measuring the ID OD you have us, or confirmed if you are trying to press the bearing. If you have a gap between the collar and bearing right now, unless you're pressing the shaft/bearing into the collar, there shouldn't be an issue.

If you're trying to press the bearing down into the collar with a 1mm+ interfere fit then yeah, I'd bet it's trash

Using a cheap electronic caliper from Canadian tire. I’m measuring the ID of collar. I pressed the 2 collars and bearing at one time, which I find it odd that there is a space between the bearing and the last collar to go on the axel,
I think next time I will put them in one at a time

 

[PCustoms]

Using a cheap electronic caliper from Canadian tire. I’m measuring the ID of collar. I pressed the 2 collars and bearing at one time, which I find it odd that there is a space between the bearing and the last collar to go on the axel,
I think next time I will put them in one at a time

A caliper really isn't the right tool, so your numbers aren't correct, but comparing it to the old (also incorrect) ID I don't think you have the correct collars...

If you had the bearing in between them and were reefing on it to get is pressed I bet it's damaged.

 

[Burt Shaver]

Did you mean one thousandth rather than ten thousandths? A bearing press fit on a 1-1/8” bearing should be in the range of half a thousandth or so or the bearing faces distortion.

I will be honest, at this point I don’t know what I mean, lol. I’ve always been lucky enough to order a bearing usually a wheel bearing or a universal joint or whatever part and it’s just always pressed in fine so I don’t know what size the ID should be for this collar to go into a 1 1/8” shaft. I thought it should be about .010? Is that the proper way to write 10 thousandths of an inch?

 

[PCustoms]

Never mind

 

[Burt Shaver]

A caliper really isn't the right tool, so your numbers aren't correct, but comparing it to the old (also incorrect) ID I don't think you have the correct collars...

If you had the bearing in between them and were reefing on it to get is pressed I bet it's damaged.

Makes sense, there would be pressure on both sides of that inner race. I do believe the first collar to go on the axel before the bearing went in fairly easily since the axel was frozen, the collar pre heated and the fact that it was an original collar so it fit correctly, but yes maybe not the best idea to press the 3 on at once

 

[OccupantRJ]

I will be honest, at this point I don’t know what I mean, lol. I’ve always been lucky enough to order a bearing usually a wheel bearing or a universal joint or whatever part and it’s just always pressed in fine so I don’t know what size the ID should be for this collar to go into a 1 1/8” shaft. I thought it should be about .010? Is that the proper way to write 10 thousandths of an inch?

That is the proper way to write that, but destructive level tight. That is why I wrote the measurements out to help clarify. I usually tell people that a sheet of paper is around 3 thousandths thick to establish a familiar relationship. A press fit on your bearing would be 1/6 the thickness of a sheet of notebook paper. Ten thousandths would therefore be over three sheets thickness. I hope this helps you.

 

[Burt Shaver]

That is the proper way to write that, but destructive level tight. That is why I wrote the measurements out to help clarify.

Just for future reference, your saying that the collar being .010” ID smaller than the OD of the axel is to tight?
I think the ID of this collar was about .055” smaller than the shaft.

 

[PCustoms]

...maybe not the best idea to press the 3 on at once

Having all 3 press fit plus a retaining ring really doesn't make sense

 

[OccupantRJ]

Just for future reference, your saying that the collar being .010” ID smaller than the OD of the axel is to tight?
I think the ID of this collar was about .055” smaller than the shaft.

Yes, I edited my last post to hopefully further help.

 

[Burt Shaver]

Having all 3 press fit plus a retaining ring really doesn't make sense

I wouldn’t know if it makes sense or not but this is the pto axel before I disassembled it, collar, bearing collar, snap ring that you can see if you zoom in on the implement side. They did require the press to remove the 3 but they were not super tight

 

[PCustoms]

I wouldn’t know if it makes sense or not but this is the pto axel before I disassembled it, collar, bearing collar, snap ring that you can see if you zoom in on the implement side. They did require the press to remove the 3 but they were not super tight

Is there a shoulder on the shaft where I drew the red line?