New Bay Window: U-factor not met, Inspector says need new glass, will argon maybe meet new code?

[Pen & Wrench]

I'm sure things have changed but when I used to finance houses, the total envelope had to get to a certain score, and 20 years ago you had your choice of how to get there. Is there a chance you can agree to make up any difference somewhere else in the house, like adding additional insulation in the attic? I hate the idea of it but maybe its worth a try? If you have the windows in, the cost and thermal inefficiency of replacing them will eat up any energy savings you might be able to find in the replacement windows. Do you suppose anyone has any common sense anymore?

 

[loganb]

The applicable code is available for all to see, specifically the 2024 International Energy Conservation Code as adopted by the state:

Chapter 1 [RE] Scope and Administration: Rhode Island Energy Code 2024 | UpCodes

UpCodes offers a consolidated resource of construction and building code grouped by jurisdiction

up.codes

There is a specific section in R104.1 that calls out the process to obtain approval for a method/design/material not specified:

Essentially it says the burden to show it meets or exceeds the code intent is on the applicant, but that the official then must respond in writing with yes/no and why.

The specific requirement for Zone 5 locations for "vertical fenestration" which is the code way of saying a window in a wall




The messy part of the lower price point vinyl window world is that they players get bought and sold often in the name of consolidation.

Andersen sold American Craftsman 8 or so years ago, Silverline made what was bought here per the paperwork and they call it the 70 Series. Silverline is now owned by PlyGem who is now under the umbrella brand Cornerstone who now owns American Craftsman and the same window that appears to be advertised on Silverline's site as the V3 "brand" or model includes what appears to be the same product being sold either as American Craftsman or Silverline....it's jargon terms of "white label mfg" where you make the same product and put different stickers on at the end to enable selling it thru different channels(sometimes in the same region) to reduce conflict, give appearance of unique-ness etc....

Regardless...what factory solutions are there

Based on some documentation found on Silverline's site which even for someone well versed in navigating this **** is hard to find which tells a bit of a story(in my window nerd mind at least):

https://www.silverlinewindows.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/SL-Thermal-Performance-Data_020722.pdf

It looks like what was bought for the double hung venting flankers is the configuration highlighted in yellow:



So what does that mean?
2.2mm or 3mm is the thickness of the glass panes. Thinner is cheaper and often on smaller windows performs better thermally, but there are limits to when it can be used....specifically size or if tempered so they list both 2.2 and 3mm configurations. The U-Factor of .33 lins up

The spacer of "intercept" is a mfg specific term and irrelevant to the consumer as you don't get control of it

To get to the .28 you have to go to the blue or magenta-ish colors...which requires a change to a different LowE coating shown in the blue, then that same configuration adding argon gets you to .26.

So what is this magic coating of E2+PS??? There are only a couple of companies doing the actual glass coating and everyone buys from them but has their own marketing terms so let's check their lit:



Well that says about nothing to the average consumer but attempts to justify the extra money but it's confirms it's an extra coating...let's see what:

Public information on the rated performance off all the mfgs gets us this which is highly technical but confirms a key thing



They're still using Guardian for their LowE coatings, more details on all the options are below:

https://www.guardianglass.com/us/en/our-glass/climaguard

So boiling that all down....to something managable and actionable.

They have several "base" options for the coating
-Low-E or their "base" which is what OP has...this is CG70 in glass company langauge
-Low-E SC or "Sun Control" for locations where solar gain is a concern and what to limit it...likely the mfg name is CG55
-Low-E2+ which is an upgraded option for better U-Factor...likely Mfg name of 62/27

With each of those options, you can add argon and to LowE and LowE 2 you can add the "PSL" technology (mfg name IS20) which is an additional coating on the room side surface to further improve U-Factor(make it smaller)

So it does look like you could order the glass package that appears necessary to get to the .28 without doing any frame modifications like foam filling. This gives a very narrow and low probability path to try and submit a request in writing to change the glass and sashes to that configuration and use the above linked documentation as proof of compliance with the intent to get an approved permit.

Again, with ordering sash or glass only, there is no manufacturer documentation attesting to the performance, so this type of documentation and possibly a friendly letter via the customer support channel is as far as you're likely to get

 

[zimman]

My words were "If I had the resources" That means money. Laugh all you want but picking up the phone is free.
Zim

 

[Mandres]

Can you ask for some grace from the city/town council? I understand codes like this being enforced on new developments, but it seems overly harsh for a homeowner who's replacing a single window. Maybe your councilman can help you out?

 

[The Cobbler]

I can't imagine eating $5k over a U factor on a replacement window

that's your choice. he has his . end of story . you, in my opinion are very critical of everyone's posts but yours

 

[MikeC55]

When you say it was a custom order, was it actually built to fit dimensions you specified or was it something they didn't have in stock and had to order it from a warehouse somewhere? If the latter case, I would expect HD to allow a return. If it truly is a special order per your dimensions, and $1,300 is what it will cost to fix it, that may be your best bet. Certainly that amount of money is nothing to sneeze at, but unless you can reason with them, it might be the lowest stress option to accept it as a part of doing business. There is sometimes nothing worse than a bureaucrat with a little power.

 

[TRWham]

This has been quite enlightening, though we don't do many windows anymore. We have always installed Low E with argon which gets us to 0.29, and would need to add EPS spacers (or triple Low E at even more $$$) to comply with 2024, but we are still on 2015 in Georgia and 2021 in Florida.

 

[My Old Tools]

Recently purchased a large, custom Bay Window. Ordered from Home Depot. They delivered it a few weeks ago, and (being the law-abiding citizen that I am) I went to get a building permit. I was gobsmacked when the permit was refused, the Building Inspector said my new glass panels all failed the new IECC codes for this region (zip code 02842). He said my maximum allowable U-factor is .28, and my panels are .33 and .34

So it appears I will have to buy three new inserts (the frame is OK as-is). Home Depot quoted me ~$1,300 for the new panels. The manufacturer and Home Depot all say it was my responsibility to verify everything prior to purchase.

My only option is to somehow have these glass panels modified so that the U-factor is .28 or lower, and I was wondering if there are any ways to do that? Maybe by using argon as a filler gas? Or coating the glass?

What do you guys think? Is is feasible to modify these panels, or should I just bite the expensive bullet and buy brand new panels? I have attached the spec sheet below. Thanks for any help................

Shop those inserts. They should be about $200-250 each. Any glass company can have compatible inserts made. I replaced 92 inserts in 20 year old frames with Low-E inserts and got rid of dated divided lites. It was a fraction of the cost of new windows.

 

[PCustoms]

that's your choice. he has his . end of story . you, in my opinion are very critical of everyone's posts but yours

This seems completely unnecessary

 

[Sumboodie]

One could argue if there was a legit reason, like egress, safety, etc, but what difference is .08 u factor? Like $10 a year in heating?

 

[Sumboodie]

This has been quite enlightening, though we don't do many windows anymore. We have always installed Low E with argon which gets us to 0.29, and would need to add EPS spacers (or triple Low E at even more $$$) to comply with 2024, but we are still on 2015 in Georgia and 2021 in Florida.

I don't even know what the "requirement" is here.

One of my windows is a vertical hung they installed sideways.

 

[loganb]

When you say it was a custom order, was it actually built to fit dimensions you specified or was it something they didn't have in stock and had to order it from a warehouse somewhere? If the latter case, I would expect HD to allow a return. If it truly is a special order per your dimensions, and $1,300 is what it will cost to fix it, that may be your best bet. Certainly that amount of money is nothing to sneeze at, but unless you can reason with them, it might be the lowest stress option to accept it as a part of doing business. There is sometimes nothing worse than a bureaucrat with a little power.

I can't speak for this order, but generally speaking from my knowledge...yes. If it's not pulled from the shelf immediately in front of you, it's generally being made to order, specifically for that order. The products are generally different enough in size and not that hard to produce(with the established mfg process/equipment), the components are all similar and not long lead time so it's not that hard to make a mfg system that can produce them in short notice. It's not hard to setup a vinyl plant that "releases" orders to the shop floor in the morning and the window is on the dock ready for shipping at the end of the shift. 25k sq ft of floorspace, adequate utilities and a low 7 figure capital investment and you can setup your own window company making vinyl windows. The barriers to actually produce are relatively low when compared to other mfg things....the challenge is selling that production capacity

Shop those inserts. They should be about $200-250 each. Any glass company can have compatible inserts made. I replaced 92 inserts in 20 year old frames with Low-E inserts and got rid of dated divided lites. It was a fraction of the cost of new windows.

The problem isn't the cost. It's that per building code which is the problem here, glass only replacement with a higher performing insulated glass unit (IGU) doesn't give him the documentation of full unit U-Factor which is the crux here. He could get free IGU's that are 3x better then required and still wouldn't have the necessary documentation from the mfg stating it meets the .28 U-Factor requirement if we follow the letter of the code and the standards for documentation the mfg has agreed to follow.

 

[TRWham]

When you say it was a custom order, was it actually built to fit dimensions you specified or was it something they didn't have in stock and had to order it from a warehouse somewhere? If the latter case, I would expect HD to allow a return. If it truly is a special order per your dimensions, and $1,300 is what it will cost to fix it, that may be your best bet. Certainly that amount of money is nothing to sneeze at, but unless you can reason with them, it might be the lowest stress option to accept it as a part of doing business. There is sometimes nothing worse than a bureaucrat with a little power.

We spend $1.5 million a year with THD and they would not accept a return of a custom order if we screwed up. It’s right there on the quote.

 

[loganb]

One of my windows is a vertical hung they installed sideways.

I wish this was the first time I'd heard of this....

 

[TRWham]

I wish this was the first time I'd heard of this....

It’s so hard to order a slider…

 

[loganb]

It’s so hard to order a slider…

And they're cheaper! at least for most companies lol.....

About anytime that I think I've seen all the possible dumb **** that can happen on a jobsite....I go to another jobsite and am reminded...nope....dumb decisions still abound!

 

[Lassen Forge]

Problem with the film is it may not meet the county board's spec for initial installation R value -
Call me an outlaw, but I wouldn't have pulled a permit for the windows, unless you were doing major construction/revision to the structure. Even then - if I could get away with not, then nope, not.

 

[MikeC55]

I can't speak for this order, but generally speaking from my knowledge...yes. If it's not pulled from the shelf immediately in front of you, it's generally being made to order, specifically for that order. The products are generally different enough in size and not that hard to produce(with the established mfg process/equipment), the components are all similar and not long lead time so it's not that hard to make a mfg system that can produce them in short notice. It's not hard to setup a vinyl plant that "releases" orders to the shop floor in the morning and the window is on the dock ready for shipping at the end of the shift. 25k sq ft of floorspace, adequate utilities and a low 7 figure capital investment and you can setup your own window company making vinyl windows. The barriers to actually produce are relatively low when compared to other mfg things....the challenge is selling that production capacity



The problem isn't the cost. It's that per building code which is the problem here, glass only replacement with a higher performing insulated glass unit (IGU) doesn't give him the documentation of full unit U-Factor which is the crux here. He could get free IGU's that are 3x better then required and still wouldn't have the necessary documentation from the mfg stating it meets the .28 U-Factor requirement if we follow the letter of the code and the standards for documentation the mfg has agreed to follow.

I understand, if it is made to order, even if to some standard dimensions, it's still considered a 'custom' order. They're not simply stacked up in a warehouse waiting for a buyer. So far as the inserts, it would seems he needs to verify that his local building department will accept the substitution of improved U-factor inserts into the frame. If they won't sign-off on that, it's a new ball game...

 

[MikeC55]

Problem with the film is it may not meet the county board's spec for initial installation R value -
Call me an outlaw, but I wouldn't have pulled a permit for the windows, unless you were doing major construction/revision to the structure. Even then - if I could get away with not, then nope, not.

Agreed. I believe there are situations where stealth remodeling is worth the risk.

 

[c39er]

Any pulled permit...increased property taxes...