Question for machinist

[Dagny]

I keep all my knock out punches in a klien bag in the service van and needed a 3/4 hole today but must have gave my newest one away so tried to use the backup but the threads are not quite right .

I have several draw studs which are really just a 3/4 16 bolt but a very high quality bolt.

All the other punches thread right on but the 3/4 binds about 2/3 rd of the way on most of the bolts and almost all the way on on the oldest bolt.

Think it would pay to buy a tap and run it through there or get some lapping compound and run it in and out.

All the parts seem to be very hard steel. Greenlee made them when I was young.

 

[signcrafter]

I keep all my knock out punches in a klien bag in the service van and needed a 3/4 hole today but must have gave my newest one away so tried to use the backup but the threads are not quite right .

I have several draw studs which are really just a 3/4 16 bolt but a very high quality bolt.

All the other punches thread right on but the 3/4 binds about 2/3 rd of the way on most of the bolts and almost all the way on on the oldest bolt.

Think it would pay to buy a tap and run it through there or get some lapping compound and run it in and out.

All the parts seem to be very hard steel. Greenlee made them when I was young.

Guess it depends on how bad the threads are damaged, doesn't sound like they are too bad if it threads 2/3 of the way on. Also the condition of the knockout would play into my decision. Amazon has a new greenlee 3/4" knockout for just under 50 bucks. A century 3/4x16 tap is about 12 bucks. If the knockout is in good shape besides the threads I would order a tap and fix it and then you have the tap to fix any in the future. I didn't see a 3/4x16 thread chaser but I didn't look real hard. The threads are already cut, just got messed up and need to be reshaped. If the knockout is older or worn I might look into just getting a new one.

 

[whateg01]

Are you sure the one isn't M19-1.5? I would think the punches would be hard, so I wouldn't expect a tap to cut them. Can you file the threads with a small file? Or does a file skate over them?

 

[Dagny]

they are inside

 

[Firebrick43]

I always had luck with 5 micron diamond paste. Apply very little on the threads and screw it in until it almost binds and loosen, and repeat. Every time it will advance slightly, apply another small dab after 30 times or so, then afterwards clean very well

 

[signcrafter]

they are inside

I picked one of these up a few years ago at napa and have used it a few times. Might be an option for you.

https://www.amazon.com/Rotary-Thread-RTK1-1-Starter-Restore/dp/B085LRZZPS/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[whateg01]

they are inside

That's why I suggested a small file

 

[JABgj]

Could the stud be stretched from use making it bind up?

 

[Dagny]

The other punches use the same bolt and 3/4 doesn't load the bolt much.

 

[RoninB4]

Think it would pay to buy a tap and run it through there or get some lapping compound and run it in and out.

All the parts seem to be very hard steel. Greenlee made them when I was young.

-The following is JMO as a lifelong toolmaker accustomed to working with, and making, hardened steel components. Just the fact that Greenlee made this leads me to believe that good quality high carbon steel was used, which steel cannot be determined. The relative hardness of this component also cannot be determined. Was it case hardened or through hardened and to what Rc hardness? What can probably be guessed at is that buying/using a new tap in it will dull the tap cutting edges and maybe even not even make it all the way through the punch if it's hardened enough. A quick search shows that a 19mm is very uncommon and doubtful that Greenlee made one if it's as old as you indicate. Sounds like there's only a few .001's in thread form causing the fitment trouble and that happens with hardened steel sometimes. Some steels and/or the hardening process will either close up the thread pitch/form or will fuse some debris to the steel itself. What is SOP in most shops is to either use an oversize tap before hardening or use lapping compound after hardening to make threaded holes useable. Sometimes both were needed. Since your component is already hardened I'd suggest using some common lapping compound and some hardware store threaded rod so you don't abrade your existing draw studs any further.

-There's several types of lapping compounds available, some are more expensive and singular purposed than others. I don't see the need for using anything other than a very small, inexpensive tin of silicone carbide grease (Clover) that's available everywhere. Lower cost but also more of a mess than other lapping compounds. Would suggest a "medium-to-coarse" grit since you're not attempting a precision fitment, you just need the thread form corrected. You'll put a small dab on the punch trouble zone and run the rod in/out a few times. If you put too much on you'll have trouble getting the threaded rod started or it will abrade areas that don't need it so use some discretion about the quantity you'll use. It doesn't take much to be effective. The troublesome part of this is the abrasive particles tend to embed themselves in whatever is softer material and cleaning it all out of the punch will require some scrubbing with a brass brush and solvent to clean off the internal threads for test fitment to your existing draw studs. If the compound isn't fully cleaned off the punch it will begin to abrade your draw studs. You'll feel the grittiness as a sign that further cleaning is required. It will take a couple of tries (or maybe just once) to allow full threading on the existing draw rod. Thoroughly clean the punch and put a few drops of oil in the threads to finish.

-That container of Clover will last until your children inherit it so make it a very small tin. Or you can buy a 3/4-16 tap and proceed to ruin it for anything it's supposed to be for. Weigh the time/cost equation for what suits you. Report back if you have further problems with this. Good luck

 

[rlitman]

...Since your component is already hardened I'd suggest using some common lapping compound and some hardware store threaded rod so you don't abrade your existing draw studs any further.
... You'll put a small dab on the punch trouble zone and run the rod in/out a few times. If you put too much on you'll have trouble getting the threaded rod started...

You're always here with the best answers. Using a sacrificial threaded rod could be genius. It's a cheap source of a soft and more importantly undersized thread, so I'm confident that a threaded rod will fit loosely where the Greenlee draw stud may not, and saving the stud from the abrasive is an important point.

But I've never seen UNF threaded rod, and also, threaded rod is rolled, which may not interfere in the right places to get the job done with the minimum amount of work. Also, the cheapest chinesium taps I'm seeing on Amazon is $12. That's probably right around the cost of the threaded rod, and would work just as well as a lap, if you can anneal it.

If this were my project, I'd buy a 3/4"-16 brass inverted flare plug, grab the hex head in the side of my vise and hacksaw it off, and then I'd think about how I could stick something in the bore that I can chuck in a drill and turn it into a large metalworking q-tip. I'd probably jam a hex key shank in it, or maybe tap it for whatever all-thread is sitting in the scrap bin and stick that in there with some red loctite. Eureka! A straight flute screw extractor.

 

[RoninB4]

You're always here with the best answers.

-Geez I hope I've learned something useful after decades in machine shops, I sure didn't achieve fame-n-fortune like they promised I would.

Using a sacrificial threaded rod could be genius.

--We all must make sacrifices for what we love.....

It's a cheap source of a soft and more importantly undersized thread, so I'm confident that a threaded rod will fit loosely where the Greenlee draw stud may not, and saving the stud from the abrasive is an important point.

-That stud is likely of better quality then anything readily available off the shelf so it must be preserved. First, do no harm. (Hypocratic oath)

But I've never seen UNF threaded rod, and also, threaded rod is rolled, which may not interfere in the right places to get the job done with the minimum amount of work.

-Y'know, you're right about availability for cheap. I seldom think about what most others have to face when I either have it on hand or can make what I want. Must be all those years in machine shops.....

Also, the cheapest chinesium taps I'm seeing on Amazon is $12.

-Hoo boy 3/4-16 rod is NOT cheap like I expected it to be. As an alternative, a bolt could be a cheaper substitute. I found this available with free shipping but any old fastener will do. If the threaded portion isn't long enough either turn down the unthreaded shank or run it in from either side. I'd have my doubts about the cutting ability of a Chinesium tap, probably doesn't have secondary relief and will just gall on the existing threads in the punch. Besides being made from inferior steel (re-melted USA scrap steel) the incomplete/nonexistent finish grind is why they're cheap. They're also too close to full size to function as a lap, they'll just get stuck in the punch.

That's probably right around the cost of the threaded rod, and would work just as well as a lap, if you can anneal it.

-No need to anneal this one, it's just a Grade 8. A small slot/flute can also be ground on the end to help clear any crud (technical term) out of the way. That's pretty much SOP in machine shops.

If this were my project, I'd buy a 3/4"-16 brass inverted flare plug, grab the hex head in the side of my vise and hacksaw it off, and then I'd think about how I could stick something in the bore that I can chuck in a drill and turn it into a large metalworking q-tip.

-Something could easily be brazed to it for a drive. Brass would also be a good material choice, brass is used for lap barrels a lot because it charges easily with lapping compound. Good thinking on your part.

I'd probably jam a hex key shank in it, or maybe tap it for whatever all-thread is sitting in the scrap bin and stick that in there with some red loctite. Eureka! A straight flute screw extractor.

-Having a visual of your moment of success in the shop.

 

[rlitman]

.... I'd have my doubts about the cutting ability of a Chinesium tap, probably doesn't have secondary relief and will just gall on the existing threads in the punch. Besides being made from inferior steel (re-melted USA scrap steel) the incomplete/nonexistent finish grind is why they're cheap. They're also too close to full size to function as a lap, they'll just get stuck in the punch...

Good catch on my oversight.

 

[Dagny]

Does clover denote si. carbide or a brand ? also 400 grit?

 

[RoninB4]

Does clover denote si. carbide or a brand ? also 400 grit?

-Clover is a brand name, it's been around for a long time and is similar to facial tissue paper being called a "Kleenex". It should be silicon carbide particles in a grease matrix. There are other lapping compounds I regard as superior but those are used by stamping die makers for lapping in bushings and leader pins, not something you'll find unless you know a die maker. As for the grit size, the finer the grit size the longer and more often you'll have to work it. There's a balance to control and metal removal rate for any abrasive. A 400 grit is often the first grade used for a precision fitment, then quickly switching up grit grade as the fit requires less metal removal and more control over the rate of removal. For your application it's not a precision fitment, it's just about correcting the thread form itself so I'd use a more coarse grit like a 200 or thereabouts. Most cans I see are huge and on the expensive side for a one time application like yours. A 1 or 2 ounce container will be inherited by your children. You need to do some searching online or ask any motor rebuild shops that still lap in valves as they probably have an old can on the shelves. You'll need less than a teaspoon of it in my estimation. If you trust E-vil Bay you can try ordering this in the link.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1209634661...f32b72&gclid=cddf9e6b0d7611036846f4f02ef32b72

 

[RoninB4]

Good catch on my oversight.

-We're supposed to help each other, no? It will be your turn to catch my oversight next time.

 

[Dagny]

Thanks much guys. I'm looking forward to getting it freed up. I was playing with it tonight and it's hard to hold in a vise and is very hard to scratch the vise doesn't mark it at all. The one I lost had flats on it.

I have newer ways to make these holes but none makes as nice of hole as the hand punches and they are much better in tight spots. They also dont drop metal shaving down into live panels.

 

[RoninB4]

Thanks much guys. I'm looking forward to getting it freed up.

-I'll bet you are. Having a favorite tool out of action for repair disrupts the work flow every time it's needed. I selectively bought/made the tools/fixtures/instruments I used in the shop for specific applications. When one of them went home with me or was just otherwise unavailable at the moment it put a gaping hole in my work methods when it was needed. I would imagine most of us that do routine work are similar with tools/tooling/instruments that are often part of a job.

I was playing with it tonight and it's hard to hold in a vise and is very hard to scratch the vise doesn't mark it at all.

-That does create a very real possibility of getting the lap/tap stuck in the punch, hope you've abandoned the idea of using a tap. The lapping compound, by abrasive nature, will "bite" into the material. The particle size will not only take up physical space it will grip the flanks/roots/crests of the threads. It can feel as if Loctite was used until you can back it out about 1/4 of a turn. This is part of what I meant when I urged some discretion with the amount of lapping compound used. What can/will also occur is that you'll get the threaded lap in until it starts to resist but will then require greater torque to back it out, this is because the abrasive particles "bit" and kinda locked up things.

-This underscores the importance of being able to securely grip the punch itself. Heck of a thing to get a lap stuck in the hole you were trying to free up. I would strongly suggest devising a means of getting a grip on things BEFORE trying to open the threads up. Any attempts to use a tap, threaded lap, or thread chaser runs the same risk of getting stuck in the hole.

-Your vise not marring the punch suggests the hardness of the heat treating as well as the difficulty of expecting ANY tap to cut as it should. I would expect the punch to have a hardness of 56-58 (Rc) and while a good tap is harder than that it still won't cut well or it'll get stuck trying to do so. That tap will be almost useless for cutting any more new threads.

-I'd suggest getting two pieces of wood and cutting a large enough "V" in both pieces to provide more contact area to the outside of the punch. The wood will crush but not scar the punch. The "V" notch needn't be exact but the closer to the punch diameter the more contact area you'll have. Your vise opening and what wood you have available will need to be determined. If the wood just splits under pressure you need to either orient the grain differently or use another material for grip in the vise. I've used rubber (old door mat, car interior floor mat, handball, etc.) and even leather can work. Leather seems to provide less friction but it depends upon the leather itself. Whatever you use you can count on the tap/lap to get stuck and will require some torque to get it out so plan accordingly. I have a few other suggestions for gripping the punch but let's try these first unless someone has a better idea. Reply if something (vise opening limits?) isn't working well for you.

The one I lost had flats on it.

-That's the first thing I'd notice when considering the lap, how will I get it back out if there's no flats? That's an egregious mistake of the maker to save manufacturing costs, it lowers the price but makes it more difficult to use. Flats should be on there because....just because. Either find some machinist to grind flats on it (surface grinder only) for you (when the punch can take a vacation) or send it to me and I'll do it on my surface grinder for the cost of postage. Flats can sometimes be cut in a mill with a carbide end mill but there can also be reasons not to.

I have newer ways to make these holes but none makes as nice of hole as the hand punches and they are much better in tight spots. They also dont drop metal shaving down into live panels.

-You clearly have reasons for your preferred work methods/tools and although you're going to have to fuss with this punch a little it will be worth the effort. You'll also know what to do the next time something like this comes up.

 

[rlitman]

...I have newer ways to make these holes but none makes as nice of hole as the hand punches and they are much better in tight spots. They also dont drop metal shaving down into live panels.

I've always had my electricians punch panels for me. Most recently, I had a number of 3" and 4" holes punched by Milkwakee's new tool, and while the slug that came out was crinkled way more than what I've seen from manual Greenlee punches, the hole was incredibly clean. Even the paint around it!

...-I'd suggest getting two pieces of wood and cutting a large enough "V" in both pieces to provide more contact area to the outside of the punch. The wood will crush but not scar the punch. The "V" notch needn't be exact but the closer to the punch diameter the more contact area you'll have. Your vise opening and what wood you have available will need to be determined. If the wood just splits under pressure you need to either orient the grain differently or use another material for grip in the vise. I've used rubber (old door mat, car interior floor mat, handball, etc.) and even leather can work. Leather seems to provide less friction but it depends upon the leather itself. Whatever you use you can count on the tap/lap to get stuck and will require some torque to get it out so plan accordingly. I have a few other suggestions for gripping the punch but let's try these first unless someone has a better idea. Reply if something (vise opening limits?) isn't working well for you...

When I need a death grip on something hard and round in the vise (rifle barrels come to mind) what I do is cut off a scrap of a 2x4 at least 6-8" long. I lay it flat on the drill press, and drill a hole through it that's just a bit (roughly 1/8") smaller than the diameter of what I want to hold. I then rip cut the 2x4 in half, splitting the hole. When you grab that sandwich in the vise, the vise will drive the part into the undersized wood, crushing the end-grain fibers (this is where the extra length is important, because a shorter square WILL split), and by the time the part bottoms out, it's held firmly from all directions.