Floor insulation /pipes freeze?

[BSAschields]

Not sure if this is the right place to post this since I am new here but you guys seem to really know what your talking about and also seem pretty creative with solving problems.... Along with my garage builds that I am working on , I am also trying to solve some old house issues too... This is our first winter in a 1915 brick farmhouse and its got new windows ect. Oil heat and a pellet stove. The pellet stove will get the first floor thermostat to 73 degrees but from the knees down is freezing.... You can feel a draft coming up from the basement right through the hardwood floors.... (no subfloor) . I have thought of an idea but have concerns (Fears) and need some advise..... I thought a product like Rmax sheeting cut and placed between the floor joyces would block the air flow.
http://www.rmaxinc.com/wall-thermasheath3.asp or equivalent product. (What ever they sell at Lowes) Then cover that product with something appealing or paint it... Forget the cosmetics for now. My fear is-- Will insulating the first floor from the basement cause my pipes to freeze in the basement??? And a more minor concern is... from above - will moisture from spills or even mopping the floor be trapped between floor and insulation ... Or will it evaporate through the same gaps that it entered from?

Any other concerns that I have not thought of?
Any advise or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.... By me, not my oil company!!

 

[rieferman]

Heat rises, so whether you have insulation on the basement ceiling or not, the heat from the first floor will not go downwards into the basement (that is, I do not think your first floor is helping to warm your basement as is today, so insulating will be no change to the basement space really).

Is your basement a dusty/musty basement like my old farmhouse basement? If yes, I would think you'd want to seal out that dust/must from your living quarters.

Also, put a thermometer in your basement in a few places and see how cold it gets. If your pilot is running on your furnace, I doubt the basement gets below freezing. If it does get that cold, wrap some "heat tape" on your pipes.

 

[NUTTSGT]

Is the oil furnace in the basement ? Does it have a register in the plenum to vent some heat into the basement?

Our home is an old home with a stone foundation. I could feel air gaps coming through the wall and from the top of the foundation. I mixed up some sackrete and filled in the top of the foundation walls. Along the west side wall, I added some stryofoam between the top of the wall and basement ceiling. Does this considerably cut down on the cold air coming in the basement.

 

[BSAschields]

Thanks - Great tips...! I always thought that heat rises too. But I have been reading that it will seek out cooler air in any direction. A few discussions on varies websites mentioned my scenario and the fear of freezing pipes so I just want to be sure before doing anything...
Here are some photos to better describe my house...
The house- some bricks make it look like they were removed at one time for insulating purposes. But that may have settled long long ago.

The basement does have the boiler down there so I hope that solves my freezing fear

( My handy work building the bar in my wood shop)

the ceiling in the basement I think needs insulated

Near the furnace

In the laundry room

I also have an old patio door entrance in the basement that need to be replaced . that could be a huge heat loss....I'll put a blanket over it for now and see if that helps

 

[Busted_Knuckles]

You can have your basement ceiling (the joists and the bottom of your 1st floor hardwood) sprayed with foam, that has a fire retardant in it. It will completely seal the first floor from the basement. No drafts. If you have air coming in the basement and through the first floor, it usually allows heat to escape out of the top of the house, acting like a "chimney". If you kill the drafts at the bottom you might have an effect on the amount running out of the top, its a "pressure" thing.

You would need to provide the basement with a heat source or wrap your all your pipes (its easier to heat than wrap).

My place is 100 years old, drafty basement, limestone block foundation. I'm nearing the end of a complete re-construction of the house, my last step is to spray the lid of the basement. I have a gas forced air furnace in the basement, with two "ducts" feeding enough heat to keep things from freezing. I also have a "120v heat tape" on my outside frost free sill ****, as it will freeze without the heat tape on it, its to far out to get any heat.

Your problem is not "uncommon", old houses where built very, very loose. They breathe very well,... and are hard to heat $$$$, ask me how I know....

 

[BSAschields]

Is your basement a dusty/musty basement like my old farmhouse basement? If yes, I would think you'd want to seal out that dust/must from your living quarters.

It doesnt smell musty but I did see a lot of mildew when I removed the 1970s paneling and insulation that covered the exterior foundation walls.... Maybe that was the PO solution to my problem but I dont want the mold growing behind walls either so maybe they need to be coated with something

Also, put a thermometer in your basement in a few places and see how cold it gets. If your pilot is running on your furnace, I doubt the basement gets below freezing. If it does get that cold, wrap some "heat tape" on your pipes.

Thats also a good idea.... Thanks

 

[59 wagon man]

pipe insulation and heat trace tape . if the basement is very drafty you can get fiberglass pipe insulation up to 2" thick

 

[BSAschields]

You can have your basement ceiling (the joists and the bottom of your 1st floor hardwood) sprayed with foam,..... If you have air coming in the basement and through the first floor, it usually allows heat to escape out of the top of the house,'....... If you kill the drafts at the bottom you might have an effect on the amount running out of the top, its a "pressure" thing.

You would need to provide the basement with a heat source or wrap your all your pipes (its easier to heat than wrap).

.... I have a gas forced air furnace in the basement, with two "ducts" feeding enough heat to keep things from freezing. I also have a "120v heat tape"

...

I heard the spray foam is very expensive?? The "chimmey" effect makes a lot of sense and Ive heard that before so must be important
I would love to heat the basement but that sounds like a major cost as well initially for the heater/furnace...? And then the monthly cost.... I need to get my career back on track so I can afford this.... Our main concern is to save heating dollars, cause I dont have it to spend right now.... I will have to do the cheap solutions for the moment and plan for the bigger solutions that you have done.... Sealing up the drafts sounds like a good place to start...

 

[sdowney717]

why not use fiberglass insulation between the joists, then sheet rock the basement ceiling. That will cut the air flow down.

 

[BSAschields]

why not use fiberglass insulation between the joists, then sheet rock the basement ceiling. That will cut the air flow down.

I thought maybe that was overkill since I was really just trying to cut the airflow. and also I am afraid that lowering the ceiling height will make it to low for the game room area plus it would detract from the old farmhouse look... Mostly cause I thought it was overkill.... No - maybe cause of the low ceiling look

 

[RPH]

Seal the leaks first. I'll bet that you have many more than you think. Get better insulation over the door that has a blanket hanging over it. Basement sealed should hold 50+ degrees. This thing is leaking way too much air!

 

[Busted_Knuckles]

I heard the spray foam is very expensive?? The "chimmey" effect makes a lot of sense and Ive heard that before so must be important
I would love to heat the basement but that sounds like a major cost as well initially for the heater/furnace...? And then the monthly cost.... I need to get my career back on track so I can afford this.... Our main concern is to save heating dollars, cause I dont have it to spend right now.... I will have to do the cheap solutions for the moment and plan for the bigger solutions that you have done.... Sealing up the drafts sounds like a good place to start...

I think my quote was for around $600 for 1200sqft. Ive already had the guy spray the entire top of the house, but I need to finish my supply/sanitary, and my wiring, before I spray the "deck" Ive already got the foam down past the sill plate and onto the top of top line of stone, so he just needs to connect the spray from side to side in the basement. Im only putting down 2" of foam, so its more a seal than real insulation, the R-value is only around 6, but its stopping air infiltration, not so much heat loss, in a perfect world, you really dont have heat loss going down, only up.

 

[Noisy Nova]

Two inches of 2lb spray foam will stop about 90% of heat transfer.

 

[thammel]

I did a quick read of the posts here and I think most are missing the ideal solution. I think you want your basement to be essentially heated with pipes and other things down there. I would suggest insulating the basement walls and ensuring that you don't have air leaks to the exterior from the basement. To insulate the basement well, you could tack foil covered insulation batts to the walls and don't forget the joist spaces above the foundation walls. Again, check any windows and doors for leaks. Typically you don't insulate between floors in a house. This may be done for sound reduction, however.

Tom

 

[red]

Problem with insulating the basement walls is the high moisture content from the stone foundation. Temperature swings will cause condensation which will cause mold. The same mold that the OP found when removing the 70's paneling. I would price out the spray foam (for 2") and if that's as expensive as I think it will be, I would use regular Foam sheet cut to fit and caulked with silicone (for the basement ceiling) To reduce the moisture in your basement check the gutters and grade to make sure the water runs away from the foundation.

 

[BSAschields]

Yes Red that is correct about the mildew that I found before... Its not a very damp basement though. This past summer in the house... (our first summer there) I ran a dehumidifier down there and it did not seem to run more then occasionally to keep it at the auto setting of 50% that I had it set to... Which I thought was pretty good considering our rainy summer... I am going to test the temperature in the basement with a thermometer to see what it is getting down to at its coldest..... My goal really is just to cut of the draft through the floorboards which is making our legs cold when on the first floor, which I also assume is making our heating bill higher? Of course this is guess work on my part which prompted the questions in the first place.....THANKS for the great responses everyone!!

 

[Busted_Knuckles]

FWIW, I was reading an article today, in a recent issue of fine homebuilding, the author was building his own home, and it was to be extremely energy efficient, the guy is a custom home builder, building only these kinds of homes. The summary of the piece was something along the line of " no matter what technology you throw at a house, the most important item is stopping air infiltration, if saving energy is the name of the game ".

He built the place with double walls, and an air to air exchange, super tight.

Thats what I have done with the Farm house I'm reconstruction, everything is about sealing it up, not so much the quantity of the insulation or the R-Value, but keeping it "tight".

I have moved through countless cases of construction adhesive, caulk, sound and draft sealant, cans of expanding foam and $5k worth of professionally installed open cell foam. Every seam has been taped, and sealed in some manner. I'm anxious to get it done, to see how and if it breathes. A stated earlier, I have to finish my mechanicals to get the basement lid sprayed, almost the last step.

My new windows have already been identified as my weak spot. I had to plastic sheet them to spray the walls with foam, and the plastic blew up from the static wind pressure against the house that day, could not believe how bad the windows leak !

Good luck with your project, BK.

 

[thrifty bill]

Yes Red that is correct about the mildew that I found before... Its not a very damp basement though. This past summer in the house... (our first summer there) I ran a dehumidifier down there and it did not seem to run more then occasionally to keep it at the auto setting of 50% that I had it set to... Which I thought was pretty good considering our rainy summer... I am going to test the temperature in the basement with a thermometer to see what it is getting down to at its coldest..... My goal really is just to cut of the draft through the floorboards which is making our legs cold when on the first floor, which I also assume is making our heating bill higher? Of course this is guess work on my part which prompted the questions in the first place.....THANKS for the great responses everyone!!

I have a rock house, with rock foundation walls in the basement. I run a dehumidifier upstairs and in the basement at least nine months a year. The house would be pretty moist without it. Basement is dry, but the walls are very porous.

1934 rock bungalow, in the mountains of North Carolina.