Waves like an Ocean - Concrete problems and I need opinions!

[kxmotox247]

Geez... I don't even know where to start. I think one of my last posts on here I was actually giving credit to my concrete contractor and how the fiber reinforced cement didn't show and hairs poking up through the surface. This was supposed to have been my dream garage but now it has become a nightmare.

It wasn't until a couple of weeks after the pour that I realized that my floor was junk. Or at least to me it's terrible. The contractor came back to spray a second coat of sealer on the floor and the floor was wet. Literally, there were puddles and droplets of water everywhere on the surface and they sprayed right over them causing a horrible surface finish.

It took about 45 days to get them to do anything about the sealer problem so in the meantime, I had a friend who works in construction management lend his opinion since I was thinking that I'd have to fix it myself. He told me, "why are you worried about the sealer? Look how wavy your floor is!"

So now, 3 months after the floor has been poured, I can't get the contractor to fix the floor (waviness and sealer). They have been back to repair/replace both door insets since they messed those up. One inset was actually tipping backwards into the building. In the process of making the repairs, they let concrete dry on the door flashings and then scratched the heck out of the jamb when they removed it. This is in addition to the damage that they did when the concrete truck bumped the overhead door trim and when their skid steer bumped and dented the tin. No kidding, but they actually had to come back and repair 1/2 of the large 16' door inset because it cracked...since no one showed up the next day to cut the control joint.

The sort of good news is that I haven't paid a dollar yet. The bad news is that they are saying that I should have had the contract read "showroom floor" and they are saying their expert is saying there is nothing wrong with the floor. Their expert is one of their suppliers. The contract does say that the floor should be completed in a workmanlike mannor according to industry standards of quality. Can you guys take a look and tell me if this is typical workmanlike standards?

I'm planning on having the floor capped at their expense but I'm positive that they will fight me on this. I have no idea where to turn if I have to get a professional opinion on record of saying the floor isn't right.

3 minute video:
http://www.youtube.com/my_videos

Pictures:
http://www.villagephotos.com/pubbrowse.asp?folder_id=1918466

 

[PAToyota]

Holy ****! That is about the worst finish job I've ever seen... And believe me, I've seen some horrible jobs.

I don't even know how you could get a floor that wavy with a power trowel.

Where are you located?

 

[bmwpower]

Welcome to the world of bad masons! I think my floor was worse that yours. At least your's is smooth.

I don't think you're supposed to throw sealer down on a wet floor...I could be wrong, but from the looks of your picts, you're not supposed to.

As for the height differential... that's where quality and experience come into play. My friend works for the FAA and their specs on their test pad require something like less than 1/8" delta over the whole floor (it's a big floor, too). Most masons I've seen aren't able to accomplish anywhere near this.

 

[PAToyota]

Two paragraphs from our specs for concrete finishing:


1.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Tolerances: Float- and hand-trowel smooth, level, within a tolerance of 1/4" in any ten feet of floor surface, except where sloped to drains.

2.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Levels -and Elevations: Slabs shall be wave-free, level and to correct elevations. Provide positive slope to drains.

The 1/4" in ten feet is a pretty standard spec.

 

[PAToyota]

Welcome to the world of bad masons!

Actually, a mason lays brick and block and has no business placing concrete...

 

[kxmotox247]

Just added my location. I'm just outside of Champaign, Illinois.

The opinions that I have are that the floor set up too quick on them. A majority of the humps seem to occur in the same pattern as the control joints but that's coincidence since the evevation stakes where laid out in a similar pattern. It seems that as they raked the concrete into position and brought it up to the level of the pins, they actually caused the humps. The floor was power trowled but the concrete got away from them.

 

[kxmotox247]

Two paragraphs from our specs for concrete finishing:


1.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Tolerances: Float- and hand-trowel smooth, level, within a tolerance of 1/4" in any ten feet of floor surface, except where sloped to drains.

2.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Levels -and Elevations: Slabs shall be wave-free, level and to correct elevations. Provide positive slope to drains.

The 1/4" in ten feet is a pretty standard spec.

Wow. I'm guessing that this should be easy to prove since my floor is out much more than that.
I think there is a local engineer who does independent evaluations of such problems but it's about $500-$600. Ouch! I need to move forward with my project but I also need evidence that the floor was not correct.

 

[PAToyota]

The floor was power trowled but the concrete got away from them.

That certainly doesn't sound like your problem - they are the experts, that's why you hired them!

Wouldn't be the first time a contractor had to jackhammer out a floor and replace it due to their incompetence...

 

[MXtras]

That is one horrible job. I have seen fully floated pours that are more uniform than yours.

I think you are right to complain. This is not typical, quality work. It may be typical work, but nothing close to typical, quality work.

Scott

 

[boiler7904]

WOW. At least you haven't paid yet. His line about showroom floor is as vague as you could get with a contract - it would never hold up in court without specific finish specs and tolerances or construction.

THat is the worst concrete finishing job I've ever seen and I've seen some **** jobs before (like a high school gym that had a 2" hump in the middle among other problems.

How large is that slab?

Personally, I wouldn't let them cap it. You'll likely end up with problems down the road with it cracking, chipping, and spalling. I'd want it broken out and replaced at their cost by another contractor. I'd also send them the bill for the damaged building components.

Looking at the specs we just issued for a municipal maintenance building, their floor is supposed to be flat to within 1/8" in 10' and pitch positively to the drains.

As far as seeking a professional opinion, there are a few options. A local architect or structural engineer is one option (preferably whoever designed the building). The supplier / erector of the building may have someone that could help you out as well. If you are using a loan for construction, the lender may have some contacts that could help you out. After all, they don't want to be left holding the bag on a *************. You could also talk to the building inspector if you have one on that project. Another option would be to hire a "good" concrete contractor (preferably someone that does commercial flatwork on a regular basis) for their opinion and an estimate of the cost and work implications required to correct that floor.

Before getting other professional opinions, you might want to contact a lawyer and see how they advise to proceed. You don't want to inadvertantly screw yourself more than you already have been.

 

[bmwpower]

Actually, a mason lays brick and block and has no business placing concrete...

So what do you call guys that place concrete??

 

[bmwpower]

Two paragraphs from our specs for concrete finishing:


1.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Tolerances: Float- and hand-trowel smooth, level, within a tolerance of 1/4" in any ten feet of floor surface, except where sloped to drains.

2.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Levels -and Elevations: Slabs shall be wave-free, level and to correct elevations. Provide positive slope to drains.

The 1/4" in ten feet is a pretty standard spec.

Are those commercial specs?

 

[bmwpower]

Is the guy bugging you for payment? 45 days, if he's like the contractors I know, he'd be knocking down your door for the money...I wonder if he knows he's going to eat the job and has given up?

Wait a little while longer and he will be unable to put a lean on your place.

Would you consider taking the floor for free as is? Will the deviation not work with what you're gonna do in the garage? Not trying to downplay contractor's mistakes, but you should weight your options. Will this guy ever be able to do a perfect job? Sometimes I'd rather take the job as is than have the guy come back and screw it up again.

 

[PAToyota]

So what do you call guys that place concrete??

A concrete contractor...

Are those commercial specs?

Yep. And as Boiler mentioned in his post, 1/4" in ten feet is being fairly lenient. For better work we spec 1/8" in ten or 1/8" in twenty.

 

[kxmotox247]

I went to a lawyer in the middle of August. We develped a list of items to be fixed within 30 days. He insisted that they be given an opportunity to correct their floor. They fixed a few of the items but didn't touch the slab.
So when the deadline passed, I went to see the lawyer again but with a couple of estimates. We gave them till this Friday to fix it or we were going to have it capped by someone else. The phone call yesterday was them telling me that they weren't going to mess with it and they were going to send me a bill (minus the deductions for the building damage which they agreed to).

The issue of capping seems to have many opinions. The cap is supposed to be 3" thick with a high chip mixture. Both contractors are planning to grind the floor for adhesion. One wants to fill the old control joints with sand and the other guy doesn't. Both want to cut control joints exactly like the current ones are. I've been told that a judge will make me pay for the materials since they did deliver those.... they just didn't install them properly.

 

[Franz©]

What we have here is the inevitible result of a combination of facts; the perfect meeting of a customer who had no idea of how to define exactly what his expectations were hired the contractor whose standard of excellence was mediocrity at its finest.

I'm not even going to go near the price factor, but I'll bet the contractor was the low bidder.

Now, in phase 2 of this project, both parties are whistling in the wind. 45 days have elapsed, and both parties are hopeing for Divine Intervention or Darth Vader to solve the problem.

The one glaring FACT that stood out so far isn't that the pour looks like **** in the buyer's opinion, it's the simple statement "THE POUR GOT AWAY FROM THEM". That generally translates to one hell of a lot more than a ****** surface. It also should, and would in the world of real contractors, translate to one result. Jack the damn thing out and repour it right. Pissin in the wind for 45 days ain't gonna cure a bad pour, nothing is. It was bad from day 1 and it will only get worse over time!

Send the "contractor" a Certified letter spelling out you know the pour got away from his crew, and the finish doesn't meet your needs. Inform him you have no intention of paying for the aledged work performed in a nonworkmanlike manner, or the concrete. Also state that he has now caused an unnecessary delay in completion. Give him 10 days to solve the problem in an acceptable manner, removal and replacement, and move on.

Also throw 10 bucks in the poor box at church and pray the contractor is as dumb as he looks, because you are already SCREWED under the Uniform Commercial Code. You have EXACTLY 30 days from receipt of the bill to protest it in writing, and you haven't. As the situation stands, both the contractor and concrete suplier can do a walkthru in any court and obtain judgement against the buyer, regardless of quality of workmanship.

Why don't people check out aledged contractors before they hire them?

 

[kxmotox247]

He hasn't sent a bill yet. Nor has he asked for any money yet. Based on the phone call, they probably not going to give me a free floor.
Could I live with the floor...probably not. Even if it was free. I would spend the money to have it fixed. I can see myself cussing everytime I see the nasty spots or everytime I have to use a squeegee to push the water back outside.
I'm just worried that I won't be able to prove the floor was piss-poor once it's been fixed and I would lose the money if it went to court.

 

[kxmotox247]

Again... they haven't sent a bill yet. I've already sent them two certified letters under the advice of a lawyer.
Cheapest bidder? No. A good friend of mine works for a pavement technology group. He reccomended them and I even got another guy who said I should have them quote it since they were a good company. I should have gotten more quotes, yes.

I'm not sure why quality wouldn't be taken into consideration in a judgement if I could prove that the job wasn't performed in a workmanlike manner.

 

[bmwpower]

What about just grinding it down and resealing? What is the overall differential across the whole floor? I ground down mine myself. Took a day and made it more liveable. I'm not sure I like the idea of 3" being added to the floor.

Do you have an apron? Or do the doors set right down on the slab?

 

[boiler7904]

I went to a lawyer in the middle of August. We develped a list of items to be fixed within 30 days. He insisted that they be given an opportunity to correct their floor. They fixed a few of the items but didn't touch the slab.
So when the deadline passed, I went to see the lawyer again but with a couple of estimates. We gave them till this Friday to fix it or we were going to have it capped by someone else. The phone call yesterday was them telling me that they weren't going to mess with it and they were going to send me a bill (minus the deductions for the building damage which they agreed to).

The issue of capping seems to have many opinions. The cap is supposed to be 3" thick with a high chip mixture. Both contractors are planning to grind the floor for adhesion. One wants to fill the old control joints with sand and the other guy doesn't. Both want to cut control joints exactly like the current ones are. I've been told that a judge will make me pay for the materials since they did deliver those.... they just didn't install them properly.

A 3" cap should be ok. But how does it affect your door jambs and thresholds - both overhead and walk doors? If you have to start modifying doors, that bill should go to the original concrete guy too.

As far as the judgement regarding paying for materials, concrete isn't like lumber or a window or a door. Installation is inherantly integrated into nature of the product. Going with the statement you mentioned; as long as they delivered say 40 yards of concrete, you would owe them the money for material and labor regardless of how the finished product ended up on your project.

 

[bmwpower]

Yea, so if they dumped 40 yards of concrete in a pile on your driveway, is that considered delivered?

 

[boiler7904]

Delivered - Yes. Installed in a professional and workmanlike manner (standard construction contract lingo) - No.

 

[kxmotox247]

Man... I'd hate to think you are right. A guy I work with had to pay for the materials put into a foundation even though it was crooked. The judge ruled that the materials were delivered so he'd have to pay for those but he would not have to pay for labor. This poor guy paid for the materials twice since the contractor went bankrupt and didn't pay his supplier. So then the supplier went after the people who recieved the goods.

 

[dodgepolara500]

When my contractor poured my garage floor and the entryway to my home, he called my up to say there was a problem. No kidding there was a problem. Mine looked like oatmeal. It seems that when they poured the garage, it was a very hot day around 90+ degrees. The concrete truck took a long time to get there. Once they started pouring it, one of the crew said it was too hot and while the lead guy said it was fine. They proceeded to try and finish it even though it would not accept a trowel. The guy who accepted it was supposed to be experienced in laying down concrete too. In the end, my contractor wanted to make it right and he paid to have it jackhammered out and repoured and finished the garage on his nickel. Had another crew do the finish work too. Turned out OK,but my entry was still lousy and was sloped the wrong way. Eventually tiled over it.

He sued the concrete company after they sued him for not paying for the concrete. The concrete company placed a lean on my property. In the end, my guy won but still had to pay for new material and labor to replace it.

Your contractor owns the problem if he is of any repute.

 

[Franz©]

There are 2 types of leins one that protects supliers when contractors don't pay, and another for contractors when customers don't pay.
Believe me when I say concrete supliers are very conversant with leining the property, it's a part of the programming in their computer system, and the lein is automaticly printed out when the time for payment elapses. Then the contractor gets a phone call giving him 3 days to show up and pay up. If he doesn't, the lein gets filed and the homeowner gets notified.

Now the justice of that system can be argued till the cows come home, but it ain't going to change any time soon. If you're the homeowner, you can either pay the lein off, or sit back and see if the suplier is smart enough to renew it in 13 months. If they don't renew the lein with the County Clerk, you just submit paperwork and they are out the money.

Lawyers, well 98% of lawyers make the good ones look like pukeballs. Most lawyers are punks and don't know their *** form a hole in the ground. They want the client to pay for their education on any case that comes in the door, and yet they purport to be professionals. Would you go to a doctor who says I need $1000- to research what's wrong with you?

In the instant situation, we now know there is a seriously screwed up concrete floor. We also know 2 contractors have looked at the floor, and submitted plans to make it satisfactory for purpose intended. Did either of these contractors provide written statements of the defects in the current floor? If not, why not? It should be part of the job. If they refuse to do that they too are unworthy of consideration for your work.

Also stated is that the original contractor was recommended by a professional. Did said professional look at the job? Did he provide a written statement of the quality of workmanship? If not, why not?

Actually, this is a fairly routine case that should be simple to pursue. By now you should have a log of communications, and a pile of notes made contemporaneus to the conversations. If you're in a 1 party concenmt state you should have it all recorded.

 

[kxmotox247]

I spoke with the second contractor that has bid the job for repairs. Like all trades around here, no one wants to go up against others in the same business. However, he is going to check with a local concrete supplier and contractor that he knows personally to see if this guy will write up an independent report on the floor.
The recommendation came from a guy who works at a company that specializes in analyzing pavement failures...primarily airport runways. He isn't an engineer..just a draftsperson there and a friend of mine who grew up with the bad contractor's son. I don't hold him responsible. It's my fault that I didn't obtain more estimates and meet other local contractors.

 

[MXtras]

Most contractoring companies have a B-Crew. They will send the A-Crew to the big, high profile jobs and send the B-Crew somewhere to keep them busy.

You obviously got the C-Crew..

Good luck with this.

Scott

 

[Franz©]

For what it's probably going to wind up costing you anyhow, you really need to bring in a professional now. I'm very conversant with the good old boys horseshit in the trades today, and that factor is one of the major reasons the slipshod workmanship goes on.

I'm not that conversant with Illinois, but there should be a group of people who do nothing but verify proper workmanship and materials on commercial construction. Here the position is called "Clerk of the Work" and they are mostly guys who have been injured and can't work their original trade. You might also call the local Mason's union in your area and ask if they know anyone who will look at your pour for a fee and write a report of condition and fitness for purpose.

Then again, you're in Illinois, and if what I've heard about that state's corruption are true, you well may be totally screwed.

 

[dawg]

If it was me I would call your states attorney general and have a building inspector look at that floor.
did you actually see the contractors license?
better get on the phone before the guy dissappears!

 

[musclecarjohn]

Most contractoring companies have a B-Crew. They will send the A-Crew to the big, high profile jobs and send the B-Crew somewhere to keep them busy.

You obviously got the C-Crew..

Is there an F-Crew...because this looks like their work.

Sorry for all your troubles OP...Hope it all works out in the end then you can laugh about this whole ordeal.