SK 45170 What do I have?

[rebelram]

I recently picked up this SK 45170

I checked Alloy Artifacts, but wasn't exactly sure when they used the SK diamond logo. Any idea roughly how old this ratchet is? I plan to use it either way if it is older or more recent.

 

[bonneyman]

I've been trying to accumulate S-K logo info, just to help with questions like this. It looks like a ratchet I saw the other day in a set - an S-K Lectrolite era set - which was a 50's era.
Yours could be earlier (don't know what year the "S-K in a diamond" was intro'd), but no later than early 60's (when it became S-K WAYNE). The patent number forged into the handle might help narrow it down.

Your particular ratchet is my all time favorite. The 45170 round head is a workhorse, had mine for over 30 years - still going strong.

 

[thesilverone]

I'm curious as well since i have a sk diamond logo 45170

 

[kc-steve]

I'm not sure this helps much, . . . but I also have a diamond 3/8" S-K ratchet model number 45170. When I looked up the patent number, 1981526, Google patents says it was filed in 1933. But that could also apply to a 1950's era ratchet as well. So I think we still need some verification about the years the diamond logo was used.

Steve

 

[mrholeshot]

You hhave a really good ratchet, lol

 

[north]

I have a Diamond 45170 with the patent number 2232477 and that patent was issued 70 years ago on Feb. 18 1941.

 

[kc-steve]

I have a Diamond 45170 with the patent number 2232477 and that patent was issued 70 years ago on Feb. 18 1941.

Just curious, is yours a standard reversible ratchet? I would sure like to think that mine and the O.P.'s ratchet was made between 1933 and 1941.

Steve

 

[bonneyman]

According to AA, this particular model of ratchet has been in production for decades. (Why mess with a good thing?)
I know for a fact that current rebuild kits will fit all their respective sized rats back to the WAYNE days (though, my dealer said S-K will not warranty any tool with "WAYNE" on it. Don't know why.). But I got a rebuild kit for another ratchet, and checked to see if it fit. It did. So, at least back to the early 60's, the ratchets are the same.
I'd be interested to know if you had a rebuild kit - or another, newer S-K that you could test remove it's kit and test - would fit this S-K in a diamond era rat.

 

[north]

Just curious, is yours a standard reversible ratchet?

Top ratchet.

New in old and vice versa works like a charm. I put the clip in place too and they work as they should in both directions.

 

[kc-steve]

According to AA, this particular model of ratchet has been in production for decades. (Why mess with a good thing?)
I know for a fact that current rebuild kits will fit all their respective sized rats back to the WAYNE days (though, my dealer said S-K will not warranty any tool with "WAYNE" on it. Don't know why.). But I got a rebuild kit for another ratchet, and checked to see if it fit. It did. So, at least back to the early 60's, the ratchets are the same.
I'd be interested to know if you had a rebuild kit - or another, newer S-K that you could test remove it's kit and test - would fit this S-K in a diamond era rat.

I agree. What makes me curious though is why would they change the patent then? (per "North's" post above) Only thing I could imagine is that maybe they changed (improved?) internals a little.

I only have a Tuff-1 as a newer one to compare, no 45170 newer than the one I mentioned same as the OP's ratchet.

Steve

 

[rebelram]

Well I purchased a rebuild kit from Alex here on GJ and I am going to try it and see if it fits. I don't think the ratchet absolutely has to have a rebuild kit, but I wanted to see if it would improve anything. And it would also give me spare parts for this old workhorse.

I'll post the results once I get the rebuild kit.

The patent numbers are interesting. If mine is from somewhere between the 1930s and 1940s, then it's a lot older than I expected. I was thinking 1950's at the earliest.

If any of you guys need to see other pics of specific areas of this ratchet that might help with figuring out how old it is, let me know and I'll upload some more pics.

 

[SCscoutguy]

Here are a few of the SK 3/8" ratchets I have that are all different.

 

[bmwohio]

Here's mine....looks like we have the same patent #



Subscribed to hear what else we find out

 

[kc-steve]

Thanks for asking this question RebelRam! I have been wondering about my diamond ratchet's origin for a while but never thought to check the patent and ask others about their ratchets as well.

I bought mine on eBay a few months ago for about $8 and now I'm going to treat it more carefully in the future. When I first got it, it was a bit "sticky" but I just sprayed some WD-40 into it and it's fine now.

Steve

 

[lowbucktruck]

I've been curious about the S-K diamond logo myself.... having several S-K ratchets myself (my favorite rat). The design doesn't seem to have changed all that much since the original patent filed in 1933. The patent numbers are definitely the best clue, I think. They seem to have stopped the use of the S-K Diamond when S-K and Lectrolite were acquired by Symington-Wayne in 1962. (thank you Alloy Artifacts) So that ratchet of yours could be much older than 1950! Cool.
7 decades for that ratchet design! I'd say its a keeper.

 

[lbgradwell]

AA believes it to be from 1934-1939, but I think it would have to fall from the later 1930s to 1941 or possibly even later.

Here's the reason: this is my 45170:

This style is obviously earlier than than rebelram's, but the patent number is the same. If AA is correct in the 1934-1939 range, when was this earlier style made?! It can't have been before 1934 - as that is when the patent was issued - and one wouldn't think they would have been made simultaneously with the same model number.

I think mine dates 1934-1938, and the OP's from 1939-1941 or later. One might reasonably assume that once the "new" patent - 2232477 - was issued, that any subsequent 45170's would bear this number, but WWII may have played a part. I say this because the OP's ratchet appears in the photo to be cadmium-plated (although it may be worn chrome). If so, it might suggest wartime production due to chromium shortages.

 

[kc-steve]

AA believes it to be from 1934-1939, but I think it would have to fall from the later 1930s to 1941 or possibly even later.

Here's the reason: this is my 45170:

This style is obviously earlier than than rebelram's, but the patent number is the same. . . .

I agree that yours is an earlier ratchet and I see the patent number on it, but the patent drawing in Google's data source looks like RebelRam's ratchet. It isn't even close to yours. The PDF is too large to upload but I added a jpg of the drawing below.

I would guess that maybe yours is a pre-version ratchet, pre-approval of the patent that is. They could have been trying to keep competitors from copying the actual patented ratchet.

Patent was filed for Dec 7 1933, and issued Nov 20, 1934.

Steve

 

[AZ_Catskinner]

I'd have never imagined the diamond logo to go back that far. It inspired me to look at my older SK roto and it's a diamond logo too (Model 3870, patent 2977824).

 

[rebelram]

That patent diagram is very interesting. So were they going to patent the ratchet mechanism rather than the ratchet as a whole? Would that explain the second patent number we have found, so basically the internals were the change? Any chance of finding a patent diagram on that second number? If you look at lbgradwell's ratchet, the actual ratchet head looks identical to the other 45170s. So if it was indeed a patent on the ratcheting mechanism it would make sense.

Also looking at mine near where the snap ring is, right at the base of the head there is something stamped into the handle, possible two "D" characters stamped like this:

D
D

I wonder if that is a date code of some sort?
What I thought was a simple question has definitely turned into an interesting discussion

I'm headed out to my grandparent's place today and I will be looking in my grandpa's shop for more SK stuff to see what else I can find.

 

[kc-steve]

That patent diagram is very interesting. So were they going to patent the ratchet mechanism rather than the ratchet as a whole? Would that explain the second patent number we have found, so basically the internals were the change? Any chance of finding a patent diagram on that second number? If you look at lbgradwell's ratchet, the actual ratchet head looks identical to the other 45170s. So if it was indeed a patent on the ratcheting mechanism it would make sense.

Also looking at mine near where the snap ring is, right at the base of the head there is something stamped into the handle, possible two "D" characters stamped like this:

D
D

I wonder if that is a date code of some sort?
What I thought was a simple question has definitely turned into an interesting discussion

I'm headed out to my grandparent's place today and I will be looking in my grandpa's shop for more SK stuff to see what else I can find.

Naw, just the opposite. The 1933-34 patent is the whole ratchet, mechanism, handle and all. The 1939-41 patent focuses on the mechanism itself, implying to me they made some changes or improvements. It also wouldn't surprise me to find out that our older ratchets were "retrofitted" with the newer mechanism whether it came from the factory or just occurred whenever someone rebuilt them at a later date.

I think lbgradwell's was intended to fool the competition from copying the real ratchet BEFORE the patent was approved in 1934. It may well have had the new mechanism, but as the patent diagram shows above, it was the WHOLE ratchet, handle and all, that was in the original patent application.

I don't know what the 'D' might be. See attached jpg of the 1939-41 patent application.

Steve

 

[north]

*snip*

Also looking at mine near where the snap ring is, right at the base of the head there is something stamped into the handle, possible two "D" characters stamped like this:

D
D

I wonder if that is a date code of some sort?
*snip*

Like the 8 6 on mine?

 

[lowbucktruck]

Well, RebelRam? Do you think your ratchet have chrome plating or cadmium plating?

 

[bonneyman]

Here's the reason: this is my 45170:

This rat looks alot like an Artisan rat I saw for sale recently. Is it just me?

 

[SMKS]

I have had several of these ratchets. They work great. It still seems like a pretty good design to me.

 

[kc-steve]

This rat looks alot like an Artisan rat I saw for sale recently. Is it just me?

Nope, you're right Bonneyman! I noticed that Alloy Artifacts has a couple of photos of it and explains that S-K made those for Gamble-Skogmo Inc.

Artisan was a brand name used by Gamble-Skogmo Inc., which operated a chain of Gamble Auto Supply stores and other retail outlets.

Go here to check it out,
http://home.comcast.net/~alloy-artifacts/sk-knurled-sockets.html#artisan-4270

Steve

 

[rebelram]

@north - Yes like the 8 6 on yours.

@lowbucktruck - Not sure which I have, I think it's chrome plating(looks like my other chrome tools, but most of my other tools are much newer), I could be wrong though. Is there an easy way to tell if something is cadmium plated? The finish on mine is worn in some places and has a bit of a yellowish tint in those worn spots, but overall the finish is still very smooth.

While I was at my grandparents place yesterday I spent some time looking around my grandpa's shop. I didn't find much in the way of ratchets, I think my uncles have already started to divide up some of his tools. I did find some SK knurled sockets. And this little box. I think it was for 1/4" drive sockets. It should clean up pretty well.

I also won a 42470 ratchet on ebay last night and it has the diamond logo as well. I'll post pics of it as well when it arrives.

 

[plinker]

I have a 42470 that has a "housing" that goes around the snap-ring tabs,
must be fairly early as the others I have seen dont have it. My Dad has a 47170 with the same thing (plus two detent ball on the drive square).


I bought a 1/4 drive set from here the ratchet is diamond logo the breaker bar is unmarked along w/ the 6" extension. The box has the crinkle paint but no metal tag.

I put a new pawl in the 1/4 ratchet and the only part that would not work was the snap-ring, it was too wide. That is the only issue I have had rebuilding the older S-K's.

I wonder if that is a date code of some sort?
What I thought was a simple question has definitely turned into an interesting discussion

I think that is a forgeing stamp for which tooling/mold/die the used for that batch.
I have three 45170's and they all have some varytion is handle thickness and other areas. same w/ my 40970's.

 

[kc-steve]

. . . I also won a 42470 ratchet on ebay last night and it has the diamond logo as well. I'll post pics of it as well when it arrives.

For what it's worth, . . . my 42470, 1/2"-drive ratchet with the "S-K Wayne" stamped on it has the patent #2232477 (1939-41). The "Wayne" logo puts it around the 1960s. But has no diamond logo.

Steve

 

[bonneyman]

Nope, you're right Bonneyman! I noticed that Alloy Artifacts has a couple of photos of it and explains that S-K made those for Gamble-Skogmo Inc.



Go here to check it out,
http://home.comcast.net/~alloy-artifacts/sk-knurled-sockets.html#artisan-4270

Steve

That's right. Now I remember where I read that little fact!
I love the AA website - it is such a cool place. I sometimes go there just to flip thru page after page of old steel. Almost always come away learning something new.

 

[kc-steve]

Like the 8 6 on mine?

I just now looked at my older 45170 and the casting shows a "6" laying down compared to your casting/forging. The newer patented 45170 (yes, I forgot I had one of those too) doesn't have anything in that position.

Steve

 

[rebelram]

I was able to successfully swap in the ratchet rebuild kit. So current rebuild kits do work with the older diamond logo ratchets.

Here you can see some of the differences between the two ratchet kits. Mainly with the internal lever that changes the direction of the pawls. It appears to be one piece on the newer kit as opposed to two pieces on the older kit.

And reassembled. As you can see the direction switch/lever is wider on the newer ratchet kit.

The new ratchet kit did improve the ratcheting action quite a bit. It is much more positive and crisp now. I am guessing that the older ratchet mechanism was the one original to the ratchet when it was manufactured.

 

[bonneyman]

Great to know for sure that the kits interchange. Great pics and explanation. Thanks!
If I were you, I'd hold onto that older vintage kit. Who knows? Someone with a vintage rat may buy that vintage kit to keep a sentimental piece all original?

 

[rebelram]

I intend to keep the vintage kit in case I someday retire the ratchet and want to restore it back to it's original configuration. Until then I plan to use the ratchet a lot!

 

[csmitty]

Mines got the newer pat # it seems. Didn't realize it was that old, was gonna send it in because of some chrome issue. Guess I'll just get a rebuild and use as is.

$3 for it.

 

[kc-steve]

Mines got the newer pat # it seems. Didn't realize it was that old, was gonna send it in because of some chrome issue. Guess I'll just get a rebuild and use as is.

$3 for it.

GREAT PRICE! That ~1954 pearhead (aka boxhead) Craftsman is also a nice ratchet to own these days. I was buying a 6-32 Phillips screw for my 1/2"-drive at a hardware store yesterday and the store clerks were eye-balling it like it was a centerfold. They made the comment, "they don't make 'em like that anymore."

So true,
Steve

 

[csmitty]

GREAT PRICE! That ~1954 pearhead (aka boxhead) Craftsman is also a nice ratchet to own these days. I was buying a 6-32 Phillips screw for my 1/2"-drive at a hardware store yesterday and the store clerks were eye-balling it like it was a centerfold. They made the comment, "they don't make 'em like that anymore."

So true,
Steve

Yea I know. I saw that at my flea market and grabed it pretty quick. The gear is mushed up though. He wanted $5 and it wasn't turning good. Said just take it back and get a new one. I was like seriously?!? Hell if I can't fix it I'll just have a show piece. So got it for $4. Trying to talk with a gear cutter I know to see if he could reproduce it in a better material. Haven't heard from him though.


That cornwell was $3 too bout to head over and see if theres anything good today.

 

[rebelram]

My 42470 arrived

First thing I noticed was that the position of the diamond logo was slightly different. And the patent number (2232477) is on the opposite side.
But the really interesting part was that "S-K" was stamped into the square drive.

I think this ratchet is a little newer than my 45170. The ratchet change direction levers on both ratchets are the same style though, so they can't be far apart. Also I did make one small adjustment to my 45170, I put the old original change direction lever back in with the new ratchet kit. So now from the outside it looks original.(side note, I took the picture above of both ratchets before I swapped the direction lever back to the older style)

Now if I can just find a 1/4" drive 40970 ratchet. Not sure if I want another diamond logo or if I want one from the SK-Wayne era. These ratchets may not be new Snap On dual 80s, but I like them a lot!

 

[MaximRecoil]

And this little box. I think it was for 1/4" drive sockets. It should clean up pretty well.

My father has that complete set in that same green metal box; it is a 1/4" drive set. It includes the 40970 ratchet with diamond logo as well as a nut driver handle, set of sockets (standard and deep well), and a few extensions. He bought it new at a hardware store (Western Auto I think), probably in the early 1960s, and he still has it as far as I know.

He really liked that set and was always very protective of it (more so than of his other tools). I always wanted to play with it when I was a kid because the ratchet and everything else in it was small, i.e. "kid-sized", but he usually wouldn't allow it because he was worried about me losing pieces from it. The few times that he allowed it, he didn't let me out of his sight.

I saw that a new SK 1/4" set (plastic case and no nut driver) sold recently on eBay for $180. Dad will get a kick out of hearing that. He probably spent less than $20 for his new.

 

[bonneyman]

I was milling around the shop today, and looked at one of my 45170's. (I have two.) After 30+ years, it's still my go-to ratchet. I've handled alot of ratchets over the years (S-O, Bonney, C-man, etc), but I keep coming back to my S-K round heads. This thread made me think of it again. Maybe it's because it's the ratchet that came in the very first set of sockets I bought, but, it has been and still is my favorite.
P.S. The 1/4" 40970 ain't too bad either, though it's a bit small for my hand. The Indestro pear head 1/4" 6072 fits great!

 

[rebelram]

Does anybody know if the checkering/knurling on the ratchet handles is more coarse on the SK-Wayne ratchets vs. the other SK ratchets from the Lectrolite, Dresser, or Facom time periods?

I have looked at a couple pics online and maybe it's just the angles, but a few of the SK-Wayne ratchets appear to have a more coarse pattern.