Got Sprinklers in your house or garage?

[cowboyjosh]

Take a look at the story below, its interesting. Now with sprinklers being required in more and more jurisdictions it should be interesting going forward. I reckon this issue is kind of a stretch, just like the scare stories on the news this time of year during the February sweeps. What do you all think?

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/26969467/detail.html

Colorado Fire Experts React To CALL7 Investigation

Too Much Antifreeze In Fire Sprinklers Can Fuel Flames

Tom Burke and John Ferrugia , CALL7 Investigators
POSTED: 1:18 pm MST February 23, 2011
UPDATED: 2:18 pm MST February 23, 2011

DENVER -- The Colorado State Fire Chief's Association is urging the public to heed new safety guidelines with respect to the levels of antifreeze in fire sprinklers.
This comes after a CALL7 Investigation showed how high levels of antifreeze can actually ignite, fueling a fire.
In a memo to its members, the CSFCA said, "Recent news media accounts have elevated the level of concern." It included a link to the CALL7 Investigation.

The memo included a quote from Steven J. Pischke, President of the CSFCA reading, “Fire sprinklers are one of the most effective ways to save lives and property from fire... we are urging the public to continue the use of sprinklers but to follow the safety guidelines recommended by the [National Fire Protection Association].”
Antifreeze, typically glycerin or propylene glycol, is used in fire sprinkler systems in cold weather regions, including homes and businesses in Colorado's mountain towns where fire departments may take a longer to respond.
On August 18, 2009 in Truckee, Calif., 27-year old Isela Minutti was killed and her husband, 30-year old Wuliber Martinez, was severely burned over 40-percent of his body when the antifreeze in their sprinkler system ignited in a flash fire explosion.
According to the Fire & Explosion Investigation Report obtained by 7NEWS, Martinez was frying onions over an electric stove when the pan caught fire, the report explained. "As he turned (180-degrees) to the kitchen sink with the flaming frying pan to put water on the fire and the fire sprinkler activated directly over him and upon activation a violent explosion resulted."
The blast was so strong that window glass was blown 86-feet from the building and an interior door frame and attached door were "pulled approximately 3-inches from the frame," read the report.
Investigators determined that Minutti was 5-to-7 feet from the initial sprinkler that had activated and "the resulting burns/explosion caused her death."
Tests of the sprinkler system determined there was more than 70 percent antifreeze, specifically glycerin, and about 30 percent water in the pipes.
In July 2010, the NFPA issued a safety alert recommending that residential fire sprinkler systems containing antifreeze be drained and the antifreeze replaced with water. The recommendations were also included in the CSFCA memo reading:
Residential fire sprinklers are extremely effective fire protection devices, significantly reducing deaths, injuries, and property loss from fire. These systems should not be disconnected.
Existing residential fire sprinkler systems, whenever possible, should not contain an antifreeze solution.
If you have, or are responsible for, an existing residential occupancy with a fire sprinkler system, contact a sprinkler contractor to check and see if there is antifreeze solution in the system.
If there is antifreeze solution in the system, determine if other means, such as insulation, can be used to provide adequate freeze protection.
If there is no viable alternative to antifreeze solutions, NFPA recommends the following:
1. Use only propylene glycol or glycerin antifreeze solution.
2. The antifreeze solution should be the lowest possible concentration required for the needed freeze potential, but under no circumstance should the antifreeze solution exceed a maximum concentration of 40% of propylene glycol or a maximum concentration of 50% of glycerin. Consideration should be given to reducing these concentrations by an additional safety factor.
3. The antifreeze solution should only be a factory pre-mixed solution; use of factory pre-mixed solutions is essential to ensure the proper concentration level and solution integrity.
4. Antifreeze solutions should only be used with the approval of the local authority having jurisdiction.
"For now, and until any further action by NFPA consensus standards committees, NFPA sprinkler standards prohibit the use of antifreeze in new residential fire sprinkler systems," read the memo.
In Nov. 2010, the Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment set new rules prohibiting the use of antifreeze in fire sprinkler systems in construction of new nursing homes, facilities for the developmentally disabled, acute care facilities and other residential care facilities.
The rules do not affect existing facilities.

 

[aandpdan]

Grease fire and water are a disaster waiting to happen. It may not have been the antifreeze, it was probably the water hitting the hot oil = steam explosion.

The MSDS sheets on glycerin reads:

Fire Hazards in Presence of Various Substances:
Slightly flammable to flammable in presence of open flames and sparks, of heat, of oxidizing material.
The open cup flash point, I'm assuming an uncovered frying pan - had a flashpoint of 390 degrees f.

Something doesn't sound right.

 

[cowboyjosh]

Grease fire and water are a disaster waiting to happen. It may not have been the antifreeze, it was probably the water hitting the hot oil = steam explosion.

The MSDS sheets on glycerin reads:

Fire Hazards in Presence of Various Substances:
Slightly flammable to flammable in presence of open flames and sparks, of heat, of oxidizing material.
The open cup flash point, I'm assuming an uncovered frying pan - had a flashpoint of 390 degrees f.

Something doesn't sound right.

I agree now that you mention it, remember these tv sweep stories during ratings periods so everything is always over exagerated. I reckon a wet sprinkler system for garages, kitchens, and rack rooms that house security panels, and all the AV equipment in homes isnt always the best idea.

 

[rvr6000]

Perhaps the the news agency should do a little google search and see what happens when you drop only 1 cup of water on a grease fire. There are plenty of videos out there....the St. Paul MN Fire Dept has a good one. The MN Fire Chiefs Association has even constructed some miniature kitchens in trailers that allow them to go out and give public demonstrations.

I can't comment either way as to antifreeze in the spinkler line is to blame but I can say with 99% certainty that if the intent of this guy was to put the burning pan in the sink and turn on the water the resulting burns he received would have been just as bad.

As for the "news" channel....one of the local stations raked us over the coals a couple years ago about a fire we responded to. We were on scene within 7 minutes of the page....not too bad for a volunteer department. Of course it was our fault the residents and duct cleaning guy (Who's van caught fire which spread to the house) tried two fire extinguishers before thinking about calling 911. They were astonished to find out +90% of the fire departments in the country are volunteer/paid-on-call like us.

 

[holdover]

If you plan on doing a sprinkler system in a cold clime where some of the sprinkler heads are exposed to freezing temp do a dry system, here is how. Put a one way valve , like a foot valve near you water source use one for each zone if you have seperate ones, preassurize the sprinkler system to about 20lbs more than max water pressure with a air pump with an adjustable discharge regulator that is a permanent part of the system and plugged into 110VAC, also put in some pressure gages on the system for monitoring. The pump will ensure that water does not get in the system by applying pressure against the seal, use a small air pump that will attain the pressure you need, say 70-80 lbs, but does not have much volume. If you ever have a fire the air will bleed out of the sprinkler head/heads and water will flow as designed. did this in 1978, still works like a charm...

 

[ZRX61]

Had one here about a week back where the fire melted the PLASTIC sprinkler lines... which filled the roof cavity with water & collapsed to ceiling onto the 6 firefighters below..One is still in the hospital.

 

[IH82BL8]

Grease fire and water are a disaster waiting to happen. It may not have been the antifreeze, it was probably the water hitting the hot oil = steam explosion.

Grease doesn't explode and the steam produced wasn't under pressure. I agree that putting water on it was a bad idea, but that would only cause the burning grease to spatter.

I have a sprinkler system in my home. This article makes me want to have the contents tested.

 

[Mike662]

Had one here about a week back where the fire melted the PLASTIC sprinkler lines... which filled the roof cavity with water & collapsed to ceiling onto the 6 firefighters below..One is still in the hospital.

Assuming this is the same incident, one of those FFs was killed: http://articles.latimes.com/2011/feb/19/local/la-me-0219-firefighter-20110219

In general, fire departments support residential sprinkler systems. Personally, I'm not sure of the wisdom of allowing plastic pipe, however.

 

[cowboyjosh]

In all the homes ive built for folks that required sprinklers we have always used copper with the exception of a couple recents that used Uponor and Zurn pex residential sprinkler products. Personally i perfer copper but the folks with the new pex sprinkler products were on a tight 2 million dollar and 1.7 million budge respectfully to build custom turn key (turn key meaning all electronic systems, finished garage, landscaping, etc installed peior to taking possession) so we had to compromise on a few things that i really didnt want, but so goes life as a home builder.

 

[That Guy Scott]

Assuming this is the same incident, one of those FFs was killed: http://articles.latimes.com/2011/feb/19/local/la-me-0219-firefighter-20110219

In general, fire departments support residential sprinkler systems. Personally, I'm not sure of the wisdom of allowing plastic pipe, however.

Yes it is. Funeral is tomorrow. The sprinklers are meant for a room and contents fire and to keep the fire in check- limit its spread. If its in the attic, its a whole different thing. Besides, plastic is cheaper.

 

[holdover]

sprinkler systems should not be built with plastic pipe. steel pipe is the recommended pipe and the only pipe allowed in commercial structures, if I'm not mistaken, copper could
be used in residential, but never plastic. In the end, a few sticks of copper and fittings are expensive, but not that expensive.

 

[aandpdan]

Grease doesn't explode and the steam produced wasn't under pressure. I agree that putting water on it was a bad idea, but that would only cause the burning grease to spatter.

If you ever watch Mythbusters they do a test with water on a small frying pan. The grease does more than just spatter. The water turns to steam and sprays fine droplets of oil into the air which is then ignited by the flame. In seconds the entire room was engulfed.

In PA residential sprinklers are now required by code for new construction. I don't know what pipe they spec though.

 

[SuperSocket]

sprinkler systems should not be built with plastic pipe. steel pipe is the recommended pipe and the only pipe allowed in commercial structures, if I'm not mistaken, copper could
be used in residential, but never plastic. In the end, a few sticks of copper and fittings are expensive, but not that expensive.

You do know that even with steel pipes, they do have pumps, monitoring units, wires, and sensors that are all plastic right? Steel and copper can also melt, just at higher temperatures. Products such as blazemaster will hold excess of 1,400 degrees F with direct fire (copper is 1,983 F if i remember correctly).


Steel is great, but the purpose of these systems is not to combat a large fire, the purpose for these things is to reduce the threat of smaller fires from becoming much larger and to contain/eliminate them as much as possible. The wick in the sprinkler heads will melt far before the drywall even is torched through.


Once the fire reaches the pipes and is potent enough to melt them... it's pretty much game over.

 

[fireguy]

The purpose of a commercial fire spirnkler system is to protect the building, not the occupants. The purpose of a residential sprinkler system is to allow the occupants to get out, not to protect the building. Residential and commercial building can use CPVC, depending on the use and occupant load of the building. Newer houses are built of light materials that can fail in minutes. The nailer plates used in roof trusses can fail quickly in a fire situation, not to mention the glues and foam insulation used. There have been video about the difference in the spread of fire with and without sprinklers. Also a good video about the flamability of the glues used in new houses. If I find them, I will post them here.

In my opinion, the antifreeze issue is overblown. I think there are 2 or 3 confirmed fires with antifreeze increasing the size of the fire.

 

[That Guy Scott]

Fireguy, Nice post. I would really like to see that video.

 

[holdover]

I have been a firefighter for many years, and with that experience I put a sprinkler system in my house when I built it in 1978. I saw how efficent a sprinkler system can be, a few drops of water at the start of a fire in the right place will do wonders to supress and many times extinguish a fire. With the way new houses are being built i feel it is even more important to install a system..