Romex Question

[cowboyjosh]

Heres a question to other licensed electricians.

A buddy of mine just bought a 1995 tract home in Highlands Ranch, Co; built by a now defunct mega builder. So he needed a few lights hung in his garage and a couple other projects like dimmer switches, ceiling fans hung, etc; so he ask me, no problems.

While doing the above work I notice much of his 15 AMP wiring, 14/2 Romex isn't the traditional Black, White, and bare Copper ground wire, it's instead Black, BROWN, and bare Copper wire. I also notice I can strip the insulation back with just my very short and dull finger nails. I looked on some of the exposed romex in the basement and never saw any UL markings or manufacturer markings on the white shething. I've heard that there is some so called "counterfeit" Romex in service but have never seen any first hand.

Anyone want to hazard a guess that this so called "Romex" is a imported knockoff? Those homes were erected so quick in the 90's I reckon the county inspector simply either let it fly or didn't notice. Has anyone else seen first hand the type of wire I mention? I would have snapped a picture, but he was next to me the entire job and is proud as hell of his new place so I didn't want to take the wind out of his sail. I might bring it up in the future once he starts noticing other **** wrong with the place.

 

[Norcal]

Is it possible that the white has discolored to brown? Tract homes are built as cheap as the builder/developer can get away with (I hesitate to say built to minimum code) & anything that shaves costs would be the norm so if 1 supplier of wire was a few bucks cheaper they would buy the cheaper stuff. Did you look at the sheathing for a manufacturer?

 

[Ford12508]

Is it possible that the white has discolored to brown? Tract homes are built as cheap as the builder/developer can get away with (I hesitate to say built to minimum code) & anything that shaves costs would be the norm so if 1 supplier of wire was a few bucks cheaper they would buy the cheaper stuff. Did you look at the sheathing for a manufacturer?

He said in the OP that there was no UL listing or manufacturers labeling on it.

 

[cowboyjosh]

Is it possible that the white has discolored to brown? Tract homes are built as cheap as the builder/developer can get away with (I hesitate to say built to minimum code) & anything that shaves costs would be the norm so if 1 supplier of wire was a few bucks cheaper they would buy the cheaper stuff. Did you look at the sheathing for a manufacturer?

Yep, nothing on the sheathing, no manufacturer info, date, wire size, UL listing etc. I looked everywhere I could on exposed sheathing and saw NOTHING, no writing at all. Its nearly impossible for the white to have faded to a dark, almost black, brown. Everything about that wire felt "cheap" and "wrong". Like I said I could use my dull, short, finger nails and nick the insulation and get down to the conductor. As hard as it is to imagine, in Colorado at least it seemed that during the housing boom the local mega tract builders were "worse" with cheap-ing out on materials and workmanship then the national guys like KB, Pulte, DR Horton, Toll, Shea, etc. Buddies house was built by a defunct local tract builder.

 

[Thruxton]

It would be interesting to mike the bare wire and see if it really is 14 ga. My guess is that if it is a knock-off (sure sounds suspicious) they shaved on the wire size, too.

 

[nehog]

Yea, I'd love to get a small sample of this wire too... Does sound like it is not legit, not being marked for example.

 

[930dreamer]

Would the buyer have any recourse if they had a problem?

 

[Norcal]

Would the buyer have any recourse if they had a problem?

The builder is defunct so I doubt it.

 

[ishiboo]

No modern NM I've seen lacks a jacket marketing, I doubt it's usable if it doesn't have one. Both black and brown are also "hot" colors as well. That would NOT be period in the last 30-40 years or so.

Something shaaaady is up!

 

[cowboyjosh]

Yeah it is shady, if it were my brand new, used, house id rewire it or relist it! Im guessimg that neighborhood is jambed packed, stuffed, with questionable Romex. With a brown, black, and copper, the only conclusion other electricians i talked to including my guys at my company in another state is that this Romex is counterfeit from Mexico or China.

The builder is defunct, but the company that wired those homes is still in business.

Im not going to make a case about it, i was just wondering if any of you all have ever com across such questionable, un marked, wiring or materials?

 

[cowboyjosh]

Yeah it is shady, if it were my brand new, used, house id rewire it or relist it! Im guessimg that neighborhood is jambed packed, stuffed, with questionable Romex. With a brown, black, and copper, the only conclusion other electricians i talked to including my guys at my company in another state is that this Romex is counterfeit from Mexico or China.

The builder is defunct, but the company that wired those homes is still in business.

Im not going to make a case about it, i was just wondering if any of you all have ever come across such questionable, un marked, wiring or materials?

 

[ishiboo]

Yeah it is shady, if it were my brand new, used, house id rewire it or relist it! Im guessimg that neighborhood is jambed packed, stuffed, with questionable Romex. With a brown, black, and copper, the only conclusion other electricians i talked to including my guys at my company in another state is that this Romex is counterfeit from Mexico or China.

The builder is defunct, but the company that wired those homes is still in business.

Im not going to make a case about it, i was just wondering if any of you all have ever come across such questionable, un marked, wiring or materials?

What makes it counterfeit? It seems it doesn't have any brand or specs that it says it fulfills, so whats the issue with the wire itself? Seems to be just the wrong stuff for the job, come across that on a daily basis and I'm not even a contractor/electrician

Maybe it was originally made for 240 w/o neutral?

 

[Charles (in GA)]

All wire is required to have certain markings on it for it to be a listed wire or cable or cord. Size and type and Mfg, temp ratings, etc. Many times this info is stamped into the plastic and difficult to see, rather than being printed on it, but it should still show up.

A Google search did not turn up anything for "counterfeit Romex" except for this thread! which I find odd.

Charles

 

[IDASHO]

Not all wiring has exceptionally easy to read print on it. Some doesnt even have ink print, it has print embossed into the plastic insulation.

If you really have doubts, post up some good photos here.
Or maybe just go straight to the source (original installer), ask them some honest questions, then report back.

The wiring obviously passed inspection of some sort, and has survived without problems for more than 15 years now. I see no reason to assume the worst.

 

[Norcal]

Just because something passed inspection, does not mean it is correct.

 

[tcianci]

I would assume that there is a legit reason for that wiring being there. Just because one guy doesn't like the looks of it and he subjected it to the industry standard "strip it with your dull fingernail" test, everyone here just assumes there is a slimy contractor behind it all. It could be junk, it could be sub-standard it could even be illegal, but get some facts unless you're afraid to learn something.

 

[IDASHO]

Just because something passed inspection, does not mean it is correct.

Its wiring. Its either the right stuff or the wrong stuff. Inspectors seem to catch the blatantly obvious stuff.

We are not talking about a metal box with a missing ground.
We are not talking about a mis-wired fixture.

We are talking about wiring.

To say the wiring is wrong, but passed inspection is like saying the outside of the house was sided in sheetrock.

You notice those things.

 

[cowboyjosh]

Im not saying the **** is right or wrong, im just wondering if any of ya'll have ever seen Romex 14/2 with a Brown, Black, and bare Copper that feels cheap with zero markings on the sheath? Im not ruling out that it was a mistake **** batch and that in the field the orig installer who no doubt wired the house on piecework didn't take the time or effort to exchange it?

 

[electrican]

i have pulled thousand's of feet of romex, and that stuff dose not sound right. all romex has markings on the outer seathing and you should not be able to pinch the conductors with your fingernails and see bair copper. also old romex is hard to strip

 

[cowboyjosh]

Was just talking to a out of state electrician buddy who lives in Florida about this on the phone.

Heres something he just brought up. In allot of cases now and even back in the 90's, tract builders procured their own materials and in SOME cases only hired electricians to install the materials (including Romex) they bought from "their" supplier. It could be that this house I speak of was wired by a local outfit with materials supplied to them by the POS tract builder?

 

[Gooch]

Its wiring. Its either the right stuff or the wrong stuff. Inspectors seem to catch the blatantly obvious stuff.

We are not talking about a metal box with a missing ground.
We are not talking about a mis-wired fixture.

We are talking about wiring.

To say the wiring is wrong, but passed inspection is like saying the outside of the house was sided in sheetrock.

You notice those things.

Have you ever worked in construction? Inspectors don't always notice or check everything.

 

[nehog]

What makes it counterfeit? It seems it doesn't have any brand or specs that it says it fulfills, so whats the issue with the wire itself? ...

There are two issues with (this) wire in general.

First is insulation. It needs to meet various specifications such as ability to withstand physical abuse, the ability to withstand certain temperatures, etc.

Second is the metal wire itself. Wire needs to be able to pass a given current with a known temperature rise. This means it has to have a given (or better that given) resistance.

So we know the OPs wire is poorly insulated, as the insulation is clearly physically weak.

What we have not found out is whether the 'copper' in the wires is pure, or an alloy. Remember those pennies in your pocket? They are not copper, even though they look like it. Yep, melted down and drawn out into wire would result in some rather substandard product.

In a prior post I said I would love to see a sample of that wire. One of the tests that I'd perform would be to measure the resistance of the wire and determine its true current carrying capacity. I'll bet that what he has listed as 14 AWG probably has the current carrying capacity of real 16 AWG or even 18 AWG copper wire. Though the diameter may be right for 14 AWG, I figure the metal is probably a copper/zinc or other alloy and relatively poor conductor too...

Combine poor insulation, with substandard conductors, and you have the makings for a fire, which often will be listed as either "cause unknown" or "electrical" in nature.

Personally, I doubt there is a remedy for the OP's case, but I'd sure want to make sure the wiring in the house is safe. This can include checking insulation, conductivity of the wires, and replacing any questionable wire and fixtures as needed.

A worry is that if they (the electricians/builders) short changed on the wire, you can be sure all other parts are also of questionable quality. I'd carefully inspect the outlets, switches and lighting fixtures too...

 

[IDASHO]

Have you ever worked in construction? Inspectors don't always notice or check everything.

So what you are saying is that an inspector wouldnt notice sheetrock on the outside of the home?

Ive been in the industry for more than 20 years.

I know a thing or two about the inspection process.

What I find VERY hard to believe is that even during the subsequent inspections after the rough electrical, nobody said anything about the wiring. Sure there are some shady inspectors out there, but an error like this involves a good deal of people.

This isnt a simple, toss it in the wall, have the inspector say yay or nay, then close the wall up.

You have at minimum 3 different rough-in inspections. Once you pass those, you have your framing inspection, then an energy compliance/insulation inspection.

All before any sheetrock goes up.

 

[tdkkart]

Inspectors don't always notice or check everything.

Everything?? More than once I've seen them not check ANYTHING, or totally muck up what they did inspect.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

One issue is that the wire does not have a properly colored wire for the neutral. Dark brown is not it, and he didn't mention that the wire ends had been re-marked to the proper white or gray color.

Then there is the issue of the wire not being marked as a Listed wire.

An electrician installing materials provided to them by the builder would still be responsible for the materials. Its their license they are installing under, and they are charged with using proper materials, no matter how they come by them.

Charles

 

[1Garageman]

So what you are saying is that an inspector wouldnt notice sheetrock on the outside of the home?

Ive been in the industry for more than 20 years.

I know a thing or two about the inspection process.

What I find VERY hard to believe is that even during the subsequent inspections after the rough electrical, nobody said anything about the wiring. Sure there are some shady inspectors out there, but an error like this involves a good deal of people.

This isnt a simple, toss it in the wall, have the inspector say yay or nay, then close the wall up.

You have at minimum 3 different rough-in inspections. Once you pass those, you have your framing inspection, then an energy compliance/insulation inspection.

All before any sheetrock goes up.

IF this is faulty wiring that is in the house now; And it did pass inspections, is the inspector and his company liable is something happens to the house?????

 

[cowboyjosh]

House DID pass all applicable inspections back in 1995 when it was built. It was build during the "boom" times and the inspections were more of a "drive by" inspection; much less scrutinized then inspections are today.

My feeling is mixed IF the wire is iffy, its been in place for 16 years; it aught to be 'ok, but the louder voice in my head says "its WRONG".

 

[1Garageman]

Good point cowboyjosh, it's been there for 16yrs now. But if I lived in that house and found that. I'd be scared to death about plugging in stuff. It would always be in the back of my mind!

 

[VHF]

Could it be a Eurpoean type of NM? They have some different (from North America) color codes for 240VAC brach circuits.

 

[csp]

The builder is defunct, but the company that wired those homes is still in business.

Can you contact the electrical contractor and see if they have any ideas or records of what was used?

Shea Homes bought a lot of the assets/intellectual property of Mission Viejo as they went under. They may have info (though not likely).

 

[cowboyjosh]

Can you contact the electrical contractor and see if they have any ideas or records of what was used?

Shea Homes bought a lot of the assets/intellectual property of Mission Viejo as they went under. They may have info (though not likely).

It wasnt a Mission home (those Mission homes have their own laundry list of problems though), it was a Writer Home, I reckon Standard Pacific acquired their assets when they went under, the EC who wired those homes is in Littleton and still wires tract homes for DR,Village, Toll, etc. The EC is a alright company so i have a hard time thinking they installed inferior **** just to save George Writer a few $$$$?

 

[IDASHO]

IF this is faulty wiring that is in the house now; And it did pass inspections, is the inspector and his company liable is something happens to the house?????

Unfortunately the inspector and whoever he works for can never be held liable. Human error is the key factor here. Every inspector is human, so the assumption is that no inspector is perfect, and that they are hired/contracted to find what they can. Never can they be held liable for the things they dont find.

Ultimately, liability lies with the previous owner. Whether that be the builder, or resident, it doesnt matter.

Traditionally it goes like this....

New owner files a claim with the old owner.
Old owner (lets assume 1st owner) files a claim with the builder
Builder files a claim with the retail store that sold the wire
retail files a claim with the supplier...

All you get is a game of "pass-the-buck" because nobody is willing to be held liable. And since this is more than 15 years ago, the effort alone to file such a claim isnt even worth it.

Cut a sample piece of the wire from somewhere, and take it to the local building dept. and talk to the guy that normally handles electrical inspections. Hand it to him and ask him if it would pass code in 1995.

If it passed code in 1995 then I wouldnt worry.

If it doesnt for some reason, then you have some thinking to do. A complete re-wire is not fun. Permits will have to be pulled, and you will not only have to rewire the entire house, but everything related to the electrical system will have to meet current code.

I really wouldnt worry about that scenario until you find out 100% the wire is junk.

 

[nehog]

...
Ultimately, liability lies with the previous owner. Whether that be the builder, or resident, it doesnt matter.

Traditionally it goes like this....

New owner files a claim with the old owner.
Old owner (lets assume 1st owner) files a claim with the builder
Builder files a claim with the retail store that sold the wire
retail files a claim with the supplier...

...

Unless the prior owner (seller) warrantied the house, you will not be filing or taking any action against them. If this were possible, there would be no homes sold used (or even new) in this country--at best if the house was misrepresented or the seller knew of a flaw and didn't disclose it, you might have a case, but even that would have to transpire within a reasonable time period. No way you're going after a buyer (or seller) in due course many years later--the courts would dismiss the suit or more likely not allow it to be filed.

And you'd never prove the prior owner (seller) knew the wiring was sub-standard, and the court would ask: "If the prior owner should have known, then by the same token why didn't you when you bought the house?"

 

[cowboyjosh]

I sometimes think the quote "the ignorant homeowner is a HAPPY homeowner" is appropriate, especially when it comes to things like bad wiring, csst gas pipe, wood composition siding, eifs, etc.

 

[Jay H 237]

Could it be a Eurpoean type of NM? They have some different (from North America) color codes for 240VAC brach circuits.

That was my thought too, but not with a black wire. Some parts of Europe have a brown for hot and a blue for neutral.

 

[Underdog]

Maybe the Chinese drywall corroded the Mexican romex wire black?

 

[IDASHO]

Unless the prior owner (seller) warrantied the house, you will not be filing or taking any action against them. If this were possible, there would be no homes sold used (or even new) in this country--at best if the house was misrepresented or the seller knew of a flaw and didn't disclose it, you might have a case, but even that would have to transpire within a reasonable time period. No way you're going after a buyer (or seller) in due course many years later--the courts would dismiss the suit or more likely not allow it to be filed.

And you'd never prove the prior owner (seller) knew the wiring was sub-standard, and the court would ask: "If the prior owner should have known, then by the same token why didn't you when you bought the house?"

Now you are talking about a LOT of different things.

Liability,
Warranty,
Negligence,
and Misrepresentation


Any of which could easily add 50 pages of discussion to this thread

Which one would you like to discuss?

Regardless, trying to pin this on anyone expecting some sort of financial compensation is a bit silly. Youd be chasing a ghost for years, and still get nothing.

If this wiring turns out to be in violation of 1995 code, the owner has what is called a Construction Defect, and the next appropriate step (should he want to pursue it) should be to contact a local real estate attorney and go through the steps of simply filing the claim so it is in the system.

From there, it is up to him how he wants to deal with the home.

Still, we havnt even seen a photo of the wire in question.

 

[IDASHO]

I sometimes think the quote "the ignorant homeowner is a HAPPY homeowner" is appropriate, especially when it comes to things like bad wiring, csst gas pipe, wood composition siding, eifs, etc.

Agreed.

Homes are nowhere near perfect as most think they are.

Pour it to spec
Frame it to spec
Side it to spec
paint it to spec
finish it to spec

Live in it until you have problems bad enough to effect the way you live in it. Then address them.

Its when you start digging that you find problems.

 

[cowboyjosh]

Now you are talking about a LOT of different things.

Liability,
Warranty,
Negligence,
and Misrepresentation


Any of which could easily add 50 pages of discussion to this thread

Which one would you like to discuss?

Regardless, trying to pin this on anyone expecting some sort of financial compensation is a bit silly. Youd be chasing a ghost for years, and still get nothing.

If this wiring turns out to be in violation of 1995 code, the owner has what is called a Construction Defect, and the next appropriate step (should he want to pursue it) should be to contact a local real estate attorney and go through the steps of simply filing the claim so it is in the system.

From there, it is up to him how he wants to deal with the home.

Still, we havnt even seen a photo of the wire in question.

Im back in Arizona for a couple weeks to re-acquire my tan and to attend to some business; when Im back in Colorado and buddy needs more electrical work done, I'll have an excuse to snap a couple pictures.

BTW, in case ya'll care the drive from Denver to Phoenix still hasn't gotten any shorter.

After I get some sleep and get caught up in the next day or so I have a story about a home I sold to some folks a couple years ago where they removed all the smoke alarms because they thought they were ugly; we only noticed when we went back last Friday for a final warranty walk thru.

 

[Motofixxer]

Have you ever worked in construction? Inspectors don't always notice or check everything.

Yes, and TRUE, Recently there was a house that blew up. Investigation found connection\possible cause to a recent no permit furnace install. So media jumps all over the permit\inspection issue. Local media network contacts a large city Inspection department. City received about 390k revenue from just furnace permits in 2010. Media contacted 70 furnace installs and asked if they received an inspection. 62 of 70 people never got an inspection, even though there was a permit pulled. The head of the department stated, they should be inspecting every permit pulled but admitted there may be some that slip through. But it was the responsibility of the contractor to let them know job was complete. Then went on to say they can tell if the inspection was done on each individual permit. About a week later he made a statement on the news that he instituted a new policy that every furnace permit would get an inspection, and they would check up on installs not inspected. So they needed a huge catastrophe to institute a common sense policy, and to follow through on their contractual obligation that they were paid for. So what good are inspections if they don't even get done.