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What's a decent bore guage?

fastbroshi

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Hey guys,

I'm currently rebuilding an old inline four Honda mc engine and I need a decent bore guage able to measure up to 38mm for the crankshaft journals. I can take measurements on the outside journals on both sides with my cheapie sliding bore guages (the ones you have to set, pull out and measure), but I don't trust my feel for this either. The biggest problem is I can't reach the center journal in the center of the cases; it's about 8" or so inboard.

My question is, what's a decent bore guage I could use for this, or failing that, a reliable alternative method to measure this?

Thanks.
 
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fastbroshi

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To check the dimensions of the crankshaft journals I think the plastiguage is fine, which I've already done. However, the manual is calling for a measurement of the bearing saddles (correct term?) as well. I don't understand why this would be needed, unless a bearing was spun somehow. I think it might have to do with proper identification of proper bearings as it pertains to their outside diameter, taking into account production deviations in the bearing saddle bores. E.g., they might have two bearing shells with identical IDs but different ODs.

I'll double check my manual.
 
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senlow

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The bearing housing bores can become distorted (out of round). Telescoping gages (OP described as "my cheapie sliding bore guages - the ones you have to set, pull out and measure" are inadequate for measuring this. If you need to measure the bore diameter, I reccomend the Mitutoyo dial bore gage with a .0001 indicator. Most cheaper bore gages use inadequate .001 indicators. This is not the place to use a measuring instrument that's not up to the job.

If you just need to check bearing clearance, plastigage will do the job. Keep in mind that you will not be able to detect out of round conditions with plastigage.
 
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fastbroshi

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Yeah about those cheap bore guages....honestly, I immediately had my doubts after taking them out of the package. When unlocked, their action is notable notchy and not precise at all. They're not suitable for measuring pvc in my opinion.

I did the plastigage and the bearing-crank clearances came out looking good, but I used the gage that doesn't account for the small end of brand new production tolerance (.02mm - .046mm, serviceable limit .080mm). Mine measured up with the colored stripe for .051mm. According to this either my crank was at the big end of production tolerances and is just barely worn, or the small end of tolerances and is halfway gone. This is going to be a race motor so I definitely want to know which one it is. I'm going to go with the smaller range gage and find out for sure.

Thanks everyone for your input so far. I'll see if I can make a thread about the build tonight.
 

ToolsDelivered.com

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Fowler bore gauges are very popular with the shops and racers. Fowler has 3 classes of instruments, from value priced to NASA budget.

Fowler 52 646 300 , and Fowler 52 646 400 are good places to start.
 
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W-Cummins

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This is one that might work for me, not sure though.

http://www.goodson.com/store/templa...IID=6252&SID=a8f46d6065ac1bbca8cb33003dc4aa3c

What bothers me is that it lists a resolution of .001mm or .0005". How can that be? .0005" converts to .0127mm. Maybe it was a mistake and they meant to say .00005"?

My range of bearings to pick are:
36.000-36.008mm
36.008-36.016mm
36.016-36.024mm

More likely it's the 0.001mm that is wrong. Probably 0.01mm

Also if you need 8" depth you will have to make sure that you get one that long as lots of them are only 6" long (for some types you can get an extension for increased depth measurements) My Starrett 56264 is only 4" long/deep.

William....
 

justanengineer

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For jobs like this I would not mess around, just buy a Starrett and do it right. Dont forget to torque the bearing caps (think thats what you mean by saddles) properly before you check for out of round, or you will be wasting your time.

A question you might consider before investing too heavily in tools for a job like this (because it necessitates a pretty hefty investment for accuracy), what are you going to do if you find its out of round? You might consider taking it to an engine machine shop and letting them check it for you since they have the tools for both this and fixing it if its out of round.
 
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redneckprofessor

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I was going to recommend Enco, but it looks like MSC Direct and the others posted really does beat them.

But I will tell you what Senlow already said: you pay more for the precision out to .0001, which may or may not be necessary for you. Most gauges go out to only .0005, which is good for a basic rebuild. For "blueprinting" engines, or for performance engine building where you want to be precise about bearing clearances, then you only need the ones that go to .0005
 

A_Pmech

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I've been watching this thread for a few days and I'm seeing a lot of posts here that tend to suggest that not many of the posters really understand what it takes to accurately and repeatably measure to .0001", one ten-thousandths of an inch with certainty. The total window for all three bearing classes is .0009". In many shops with average machinists, this much measurement error can easily be due to variations in micrometer handling technique and calibration errors.

Let me begin by stating that a dial bore gage is a comparative instrument. It must be set to a reference standard at the nominal dimension of the part you wish to check. The reference standard must, at a minimum, have four times less measurement uncertainty than the tolerance window of the part, preferably ten times.

For measurements +- one thousandths of an inch, a micrometer will work as a reference standard as they are generally capable of accurately measuring to a tolerance window of half a thousandth. It is folly to assume a vernier micrometer is significantly more accurate due to lead error and the heat input of the user's hands, among other things.

If you're going to measure to a ten-thousandths of an inch as you need to do here, a micrometer is completely unsuitable as a reference standard. To set a bore gage to tenth-level accuracy you need a reference with a maximum uncertainty of not greater than .000025", 250 millionths of an inch. This requires reference to either a ring gage or a gage block stack.

Next comes the question of where you're going to take these measurements. Hopefully not in your garage! An average human hair is .005" in diameter and dust is around .0001". Further, the temperature of your work environment and tools will play a massive part in the accuracy of your measurement. Metal expands and contracts with temperature and different metals expand and contract at different rates. The ring gage or gage block master will be most accurate at it's calibration temperature, which is 68F. Any deviation from this standard temperature will cause a measurement error due to differential expansion and contraction of the gage block master and the aluminum engine case.

Example:

Let's say you measure the engine case at 78F, 10F above the ISO Standard Atmosphere. Steel expands at .0000073" per degree F per inch. Aluminum expands at almost twice the rate of steel, .0000127" per degree F per inch. .0000127 - .0000073 = .0000054" differential per degree F per inch.

.0000054 x 10F x 1.417" diameter = .00008". Differential expansion between the steel master and the aluminum engine case will eat up almost .0001" with a mere 10F difference in temperature. Your total window for one size of bearing is only .008mm or .0003"

Then there's heat input to the measuring instrument. Let's say you set it to the master reference and then take a break. For giggles, lets say you warmed the tube of the gage by 5 degrees F over its 10" length setting it. .0000073 x 5F x 10" = .00004" Then you took a break and came back half an hour later to take the measurement. Your gage is now reading almost 1/2 a tenth too small!

The two temperature errors above, when additive, are enough to cause a measurement inaccuracy of half the total tolerance window for each bearing size. The point I'm trying to make here is that measuring to this kind of accuracy is not as easy as buying the tools. There are standards to be considered along with a level of technique that one develops with practice. That's not to say you can't take these measurements, but it simply isn't as easy as buying a tool and using it. There are a number of variables besides the tool that must be controlled to ensure an accurate and repeatable measurement. These little errors can add up quickly and destroy any certainty of measurement.

Unless you have a serious reason to feel the bores may be out-of-round (something a bore gage won't necessarily detect in the case of an odd number of symmetrically located lobes) I would use the bearing class the manufacturer originally used when the engine was built and verify with Plastigauge. Suzuki stamps their engines with the bearing class for each journal right on the case, I suspect Honda probably does something similar.
 
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ewe0006

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Like A_Pmech said, temperature is serious stuff in metrology. When the guys come out to calibrate the CMMs at my work (aerospace shop), they ship their standards SEVERAL DAYS ahead so they can soak and stabilize at the proper temperature.

About the cheapest way to check that diameter yourself, while keeping measurement uncertainty within tolerance, is to buy an indical (comparative bore gage), .00005 indicator, and a 38MM class *** lab grade ring standard. That would run you about $6000 - $7000 dollars. Alternately, you could buy just the indical and the half-tenth indicator for about $400 which would only let you check roundness. But it's probably cheapest to let the pros do it.
 

redneckprofessor

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Looking at my post again, I need to clarify: if you are just rebuilding a standard engine, not a performance or racing engine, then a gage need only go to half-tenths, or .0005, but for performance, blueprinting, etc., then consider the more precise gage that goes to .0001, but it's expensive.

I agree with the above posts about skill with the gage-- you can't just buy the tool and expect to be expert with it. However, I don't think all the factors mentioned above should be enough to scare you away from one. You can clean the engine and control the temperature enough to get a reliable measurement. Machine shops and engine builders do it all the time.

A micrometer may not be as precise as other things to set the bore gage, but it is reasonably accurate. I have no idea how a micrometer that measures out to .0001 cannot be a reasonable standard for a dial bore gage that measures to the exact same distance. The OP is looking at rebuilding an engine, not making NASA equipment. Go to any NHRA drage race and you will see them rebuild the engines using a dial bore gage that was set with a micrometer, and it will be done in a trailer where the temperature may fluctuate a good bit.
 

bamatj

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Looking at my post again, I need to clarify: if you are just rebuilding a standard engine, not a performance or racing engine, then a gage need only go to half-tenths, or .0005, but for performance, blueprinting, etc., then consider the more precise gage that goes to .0001, but it's expensive.

I agree with the above posts about skill with the gage-- you can't just buy the tool and expect to be expert with it. However, I don't think all the factors mentioned above should be enough to scare you away from one. You can clean the engine and control the temperature enough to get a reliable measurement. Machine shops and engine builders do it all the time.

A micrometer may not be as precise as other things to set the bore gage, but it is reasonably accurate. I have no idea how a micrometer that measures out to .0001 cannot be a reasonable standard for a dial bore gage that measures to the exact same distance. The OP is looking at rebuilding an engine, not making NASA equipment. Go to any NHRA drage race and you will see them rebuild the engines using a dial bore gage that was set with a micrometer, and it will be done in a trailer where the temperature may fluctuate a good bit.

Its probably fine and works for people all over to use a mic as a reference. But I think the point is that its not easy or cheap to check a bore within .0001. Just because a tool has .0001 resolution, doesnt mean it is that accurate.

And a tenth in the machining world is .0001. Half a tenth would be .00005
 
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fastbroshi

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You guys are probably right. I've been asking around and the "old hands" are telling me to try and use a certain bearing and plastigage to see what I've got. I didn't even think about the temperature factor in play. Wow. Given that, I'm sure the Honda engineers were aware of that too back when these bikes were being built and the manuals were being written. They should've known no one was going to be able to check to that tolerance. Maybe they were just trained well. In any case, I'll probably be going with the guage after I buy some bearings. Damn things are expensive!
 
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